#171986 - elhobbs - Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:42 pm
split from http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?p=171980#171980
Quote: |
One of the main goals with devkitPro was accessibility to a wide range of skillsets. Recently the world and his dog seem to be trying to write their own frameworks from scratch and unleashing them on the poor defenceless homebrew community who are left not knowing which choices to make :/ |
I am not sure that I have an answer to that issue but one thing that I have noticed is that people do not appear to be having a problem finding the devkitPro toolchains. however, they do appear to have a problem figuring out what to do with them. I have noticed that the examples have been updated in the last few releases. But there are a lot of really outdated tutorials in various places. maybe some updated tutorials that describe the usage and promote/publicize them a little more... just my two cents.
#171989 - gauauu - Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:27 am
I agree with elhobbs.
Really, the way I see it, there's four things you get from devkitPro
1. The compiler, linkscripts, that sort of "hard" stuff. (devkitArm, is it?)
2. Header files for all the zillions of registers
3. Some libraries for wrapping those zillions of registers in function calls
4. Some libraries for doing some of the "harder" stuff (sound, interrupts, etc).
#1 people will end up using from devkitPro, even if they build their own little libraries, because that's hard to do.
#2 and 3 seems the most likely candidate for people using their own libraries. Because it's easy, and because, unfortunately, the constants have in the past been changing between versions of libnds. It's understandable why people might roll their own when they have to change lots of their code for new devkitPro releases.
#4 is quite valuable, but parts of it are quite likely to be overlooked if there's not plenty of supporting documentation/examples. Since people are doing homebrew for fun, it's often more fun to roll your own library then to wade through someone else's library code to figure out how it works if there's not good documentation.
Now I'm not complaining, I'm quite happy with devkitPro (in all its parts), and the examples have (most of the time) been quite enough for me. But I can definitely see how more tutorials and documentation would really help the cause.
#172016 - vuurrobin - Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:35 pm
I also notised that a fair share of libraries are made to allow a more OO aproach to DS programming. at least, thats why I created DSOL. maybe if devkitPro has an OO library, we would see less of these libraries. actually, it doesn't have to be from devkitPro, as long as its standarized enough.
and yea, we really need some up to date tutorial. and some links needs to be more visible. for example, there is no link to http://libnds.devkitpro.org/ from the main devkitPro site, making it hard for newcomers to discover them.
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#172021 - gauauu - Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:52 pm
vuurrobin wrote: |
there is no link to http://libnds.devkitpro.org/ from the main devkitPro site, making it hard for newcomers to discover them. |
There's also no link to the sourceforge project, which has been driving me nuts for years ;-)
#172158 - wintermute - Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:07 am
Sorry to take so long replying - I did have an ever growing post that just didn't seem to say precisely what I wanted to say & I kind of gave up after a day or two of editing.
There is a link to the sourceforge project, it's the SF button on the pages. Most users tend to stick with binaries & stable releases though so it's not really something that's a big issue in general.
Personally I'm still not entirely convinced by OO on DS, you really seriously need to know what you're doing on a low resource system with C++ (yes I'm aware OO is a paradigm & not a language - vuurrobin is referring to C++ though). It's also quite a bit more maintenance work and I really prefer not to force C++ on people. Lack of OO isn't the problem anyway, the problem is a lack of stable & up to date tutorials & documentation, as elhobbs has said.
One of the things holding back documentation and tutorials from my end is the lack of a cross platform installer & code editor. I think both of these are needed to give us a good base to work from.
Some other things that would be rather useful are tools for resource manipulation - a decent cross platform map editor, sprite editor maybe even some sort of basic art program.
What I'd really like to do is increase the revenue from devkitPro to the point where I can afford to spend all my time improving the tools & pay other people to spend a bit of time on docs, tutorials and useful tools. Any ideas on that front would be much appreciated.
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#172161 - Legolas - Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:03 pm
wintermute wrote: |
What I'd really like to do is increase the revenue from devkitPro to the point where I can afford to spend all my time improving the tools & pay other people to spend a bit of time on docs, tutorials and useful tools. Any ideas on that front would be much appreciated. |
Just my 2 cents: what about selling a complete toolchain that works out-of-the-box?
I'm thinking of an USB stick with the devkitARM already set up (plug'n'compile? :^P), and something like DSerial(2/Edge/GameIO/whatever) to connect the nds to pc in order to debug software.
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#172162 - sgeos - Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:04 pm
Re: Revenue
I think the "works out of the box" idea is a good one. If you get that far, I think the next step might be to approach the flash card manufacturers and see if anyone is interested in selling an official unofficial development kit, as it were.
#172163 - cyril_sy - Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:13 pm
One thing I will be happy to buy is a linker/debugger combo. I see it like a standard Slot 1 card, with a mini USB port to upload and debug binaries. An external access to the SPI bus would be nice too !
I just routed and ordered a PCB to connect my Slot 1 to an FPGA, to try prototyping mine :)
#172164 - gauauu - Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:39 pm
I agree with these things, that'd be awesome.
Along the lines of brainstorming, some other thoughts I had about making some money from devkitPro. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about how realistic these would be, instead I just thought, "what would I consider paying for?"
-Selling nicely printed/bound documentation. People probably don't necessarily NEED this, but some of us might use it as an excuse to donate.
-Selling some sort of "best homebrew made by devkitPro" collection card (or other format for other platforms besides nds). Load it up with a lot of the "best" homebrew, all tested to make sure they work correctly with the card, etc, package it nicely with a label and stuff. Sort of like the gba 2004mbit compo carts.
#172165 - Dwedit - Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:04 pm
I think a better implementation of memcpy is needed here. Why isn't it implemented with ldmia/stmia with 8 registers used?
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#172167 - ritz - Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:57 pm
Ah, the dream kit (as inspired by posts above):
- one of each: nicely printed and bound library reference manual, gbatek type reference manual/cheat sheets, tutorial guide/walkthrough like patater's or something, and cearn's tonc manual
- works out-of-the-box usb drive with full toolchain and some tools, library sources, all examples, maybe even tie in desmume for debugging too
- a card like gauauu (and cyril_sy) is talking about with homebrew demos/games, but also include all the pre-built examples from toolchain, patater's tutorial demo, and the tonc demos. This card would also have to support argv, of course (as it would probably be the one to use when making homebrew developed from everything in the kit)
- soft cloth map of Hyrule (or maybe wintermute's home town)
- small figurine of Satoru Iwata
Wrap it all up in a nice box and put the devkitPro and/or drunkencoders logo on it.
I'd pay good money for that kit! Maybe even two... unopened collector's item signed by all involved in making the kit :)
#173332 - vuurrobin - Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:49 pm
Apparantly the person behind DSGamemaker has the same idea, and is selling his own DS Game Maker branded homebrew flashcard (which is just a rebranded R4i Platinum). he does this to put more focus on homebrew, because some homebrew doesn't work with some flashcards (or so he thinks), and because users are unsure what to buy.
it will cost $35 and include the Pro version of DSGamemaker, among others.
so what do you guys think about this. will this be good for the community or do you this is a rip-off.
post your ideas, thought and opinions here.
now lets hope someone doesn't remove the links...
and I doubt its an aprils fools joke, seeing as he posted this monday on his forum.
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#173336 - sverx - Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:17 am
Quote: |
Powered by 'Homebrew menu' from devkitPro.org |
well, so it's an R4i with hbmenu... sounds good to me :)
maybe he could also preload some homebrew game/app into the card... of course having permission before doing that. Or just host a copy/link on his website...
#173338 - wintermute - Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:00 am
Said links are against forum rules, sorry.
It's a rip off, R4i hardware is illegal in the UK and our friend James is likely to end up in jail.
Currently DSGM is hugely bad for the community, his installer meddles with official devkitPro environment variables and installs a library which devkitPro will not support due to the continual issues surrounding it.
I'm also hugely disappointed that you would even consider posting it in this thread.
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#173348 - vuurrobin - Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:52 pm
sverx wrote: |
Quote: | Powered by 'Homebrew menu' from devkitPro.org |
well, so it's an R4i with hbmenu... sounds good to me :) |
I would rather buy an R4i card (or any other card) myself and put the homebrewmenu on it myself, way cheaper than $35, especially if you're not interested in DSGM.
wintermute wrote: |
Said links are against forum rules, sorry. |
yeah, figured it would get removed.
but, refresh my memory. against which forum rules are they? I read the rules (after I found them) and I couldn't find a rule that the links were violating. if you are talking about "No links to sites offering/relating to piracy/warez." none of the 3 links are related to piracy or warez.
you might also want to put the forum rules at a better place, because its currently only in some of the DS forums. I suggest making it a global sticky so it will show up in all forum parts, and putting a link to it on the top of the page (with the FAQ, search, usergroups, profile etc).
Quote: |
I'm also hugely disappointed that you would even consider posting it in this thread. |
I admit that posting it was a bit weird, but seeing as people were discussing a homebrew card kit, and somebody created a homebrew card kit, I just thought that people were interresting to know it. and so I posted it here.
I didn't mean to say that DSGM or that R4i card is the future of devkitPro.
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#173363 - wintermute - Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:24 pm
vuurrobin wrote: |
wintermute wrote: | Said links are against forum rules, sorry. |
yeah, figured it would get removed.
but, refresh my memory. against which forum rules are they? I read the rules (after I found them) and I couldn't find a rule that the links were violating. if you are talking about "No links to sites offering/relating to piracy/warez." none of the 3 links are related to piracy or warez.
|
No promotion of any retailer outside the Retailer Feedback forum.
Quote: |
I admit that posting it was a bit weird, but seeing as people were discussing a homebrew card kit, and somebody created a homebrew card kit, I just thought that people were interresting to know it. and so I posted it here.
I didn't mean to say that DSGM or that R4i card is the future of devkitPro. |
Well, the purpose of this thread was to get a feel for how open people would be to devkitPro selling some kit and what revenue generation methods might be well received. Then you go and post links to someone attempting to sell devkitARM bundled with PAlib ...
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#173377 - knight0fdragon - Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:46 am
one thing that would generate revenue is official emulators by the dkp team that supports source code debugging. Most of us have been using the debug version of no$gba, but that doesnt tap the full userbase of people using the devkit package. Hardware in my opinion is not a goodway to go, because there are multiple costs that end up being variable, and you will be limiting yourself to what we currently have available, with perhaps a little bit of future updating till you have to star again from square one. Major flaw of the software side is piracy, but chances are, the people pirating aren't going to buy your hardware package anyway, and you will have clones that are far beyond what can be controlled(worst case scenario)
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#173378 - headspin - Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:58 am
Source level debugger would be great. It's a shame the programmer of No$ debug has disappeared. You can't even purchase a license for it anymore.
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#173447 - wintermute - Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:16 am
knight0fdragon wrote: |
one thing that would generate revenue is official emulators by the dkp team that supports source code debugging.
|
Not really sure how you see this as revenue generating. Desmume has come a long way recently, it's open source and it's free, no real point trying to compete with that.
Quote: |
Hardware in my opinion is not a goodway to go, because there are multiple costs that end up being variable, and you will be limiting yourself to what we currently have available, with perhaps a little bit of future updating till you have to start again from square one.
|
Not really sure what you're getting at here either, what costs are variable? Starting from square one with a new console isn't really that bothersome, it'll be quite a while before the DS becomes obsolete anyway - actually I still get people popping up wanting help with GBA programming.
Other thing about emulators vs hardware is that you always have the risk of writing code that won't work on hardware if you only ever test in an emulator.
Quote: |
Major flaw of the software side is piracy, but chances are, the people pirating aren't going to buy your hardware package anyway, and you will have clones that are far beyond what can be controlled(worst case scenario) |
I don't think piracy is quite the bugbear people make it out to be, it certainly has an impact on sales but I've yet to see it turn into no sales at all. As for clones, I'd hope that the devkitPro brand would be strong enough to offset that, assuming we get the right hardware.
I suppose the question here is really "what would you be prepared to pay for?"
Some interesting ideas earlier in the thread - best homebrew card for instance although obviously that involves paying the authors some proportion of the profits. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable without some revenue share on something like that.
I absolutely love Ritz's dream kit idea, I'd buy that :p
headspin wrote: |
Source level debugger would be great. It's a shame the programmer of No$ debug has disappeared. You can't even purchase a license for it anymore. |
Actually he reappeared recently, I've been talking to him via email. He says he'll be getting back to no$gba slowly but it was all a bit stressful which is essentially why he vanished. More news as I have it.
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#173451 - ritz - Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:34 am
wintermute wrote: |
Actually he reappeared recently, I've been talking to him via email. He says he'll be getting back to no$gba slowly but it was all a bit stressful which is essentially why he vanished. More news as I have it. |
That's cool. Good to hear things are better for him (I'm assuming from the context). Oh, and I hope he doesn't mind my gbatek mirror :)
#173453 - sverx - Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:20 am
wintermute wrote: |
headspin wrote: | Source level debugger would be great. It's a shame the programmer of No$ debug has disappeared. You can't even purchase a license for it anymore. |
Actually he reappeared recently, I've been talking to him via email. He says he'll be getting back to no$gba slowly but it was all a bit stressful which is essentially why he vanished. More news as I have it. |
Wow! Martin back on track? :D
#173460 - knight0fdragon - Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:25 pm
variable costs would be things like who is going to the time into making such products,who will distrubute, who will ship, etc etc, today it might cost $10 to assemble, tomorrow $15 (I know its a bit extreme).
for software,
Perhaps a "ultimate" package could be offered for a few bucks that have tools not available in the standard package.
I for one would not pay for something I can already
get for free legally, so the dream team package idea is out for me, so I will just have to keep donating to make the project live lol
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#175405 - Koston - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:37 am
wintermute wrote: |
Lack of OO isn't the problem anyway, the problem is a lack of stable & up to date tutorials & documentation, as elhobbs has said.
|
I wrote this a few years ago as you probably remember: http://kameli.org/nds-abg_old/article.html
I never made it public, kept it up-to-date or proceeded to write more like I intended, since you told me that I have no skill for writing tutorials and devkitPro would be better off without me even trying.
#175407 - headspin - Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:22 am
wintermute wrote: |
Actually he reappeared recently, I've been talking to him via email. He says he'll be getting back to no$gba slowly but it was all a bit stressful which is essentially why he vanished. More news as I have it. |
Any news on that front?
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