#19673 - widescreen - Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:26 am
Hi all. I've been running a home development team since last year and have had many problems with people joining, then leaving. Usually this is down to ppl simply being too busy in their own lives to spend the amount of time required on a project & partly due to the size of the project itself - it's quite ambitous from a 'human resource' POV.
So anyway, this got me thinking - what if I paid coders & artists? Well, the obvious problem is that I don't have thousands of pounds to spend on a game that may never get released. BUT, I might be able to stretch to a couple of grand...
So anyway, this is just to put some feelers out there to see how ppl would feel about this kind of payment scheme - this is NOT an offer!! Just a quest for response....
Ok, so the project should really take 6 months. (Might take a wee bit more, but let's start there).
So the payment scheme - based on the current games industry payment per milestone basis goes something like this:
The entire project would earn you ?1000. The money would be payed to you as follows:
At the end of each month (which would be considered a milestone) you would recieve ?100. The money would be paid ONLY if the milestone was completed successfully. (Obviously each milestone would be agreed upon pre-start).
The ?100 would be split into two. ?50 you would recieve as soon as the MS had been recieved. ?50 would go into your 'non-completion penalty clause' kitty.
EH? WTF is that?!
Ok, to make sure you completed the entire project - and didn't walk off half way through, ?50 of the money you earn for each milestone would be put aside. That money is yours! It would be given to you at the completion of the project. If I chose to cancel the project half way through, you would still be paid it- the ONLY circumstance that you would NOT be given that money is if YOU failed to complete the project. If for any other reason the game did not reach completion - the money would STILL be paid!
So, month by month, you'd get paid ?50, with the other ?50 going into the non-completion fund.
At the end of the project, you'd get all the money you earned - ?600 PLUS a game completion bonus of ?400 making a total of ?1000.
In addition, you would be liable to recieve royalties (pre-agreed) were the game to be published and sold.
Would a scheme like that interest ppl?
Would like to get feedback - especially on the points that you feel are unfair and how you would change the scheme.
Cheers.
#19675 - Sweex - Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:18 am
I'm always very sceptic about these kind of schemes. Usually people that come up with them are half serious, hide behind the anonimity that the internet provides and in general they are over ambitous.
But having read through this, I think it could work pretty good. Let's say the figures are about right. Then a 1000 dollars (or euro's, almost the same these days) in six months is not too bad for something I enjoy doing in the first place. It would certainly work motivating.
A couple of negatives do pop into my mind though:
- You should build up a friendly and serious "relation" with your developers/artsits, so they will trust you will pay up. Each milestone, but especially the completion-bonus they are owned. Once everything's finished, it can be quite easy for you to not pay up the completion.
- I think the (skilled) people around here aren't all in it for the money. I for one, would welcome a 1000 dollars in 6 months time, but I am not depending on it. So if I feel unhappy about the whole thing after a couple of weeks/months I would still "quit". Leaving you with a bit extra cash but without someone finishing the work.
- How to judge the quality of the work done. Sure, you can judge art quite easily. But code could be working for a milestone but potentially be really crappy! (Trust me, in the industry people make milestones LOOK like they meet all the specifications but in practice only half of it is actually working properly!)
- What if someone worked really hard on his milestone but it is just too much and will not be done on time. Then he won't get paid, making him feel bad as he worked so hard for it.
I'm afraid even (or especially) with such a scheme, things can become rather nasty.
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#19677 - JL - Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:29 am
The most difficult issue that will arise when you do 'contract-work' (which is what you're proposing!) is how you define when a milestone has been reached. How are you going to test if that sprite collision routine is really finished (and error-free?).
I think that in this 'semi-pro game developerscene' you will need motivated people that are determined to go all the way if you decide to do a multi-person project. And yes, these people maybe hard to find, but unless people really NEED the money they aren't going to finish something if they've lost their motivation even if you pay them.
So, my believe is that you're better off with a more critical selection of team-members to be (ask if he/she ever FINISHED something before, what is their personal situation wrt time for this project and expectations in the near future).
Grtz,
Niels
#19679 - rapso - Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:48 am
sounds like marketing stuff
100 each month, 50 paid and 50 saved until the completion of the project?
then 300 of the saved money + 400 bonus at the end?
it's the same as:
50 each month + bonus of 700 at the end of the project, ok, there is a small difference if you 'cancel the project, but you can say that it'll be never finished 'cause you want more features in the game... and the programmer will never be paid.
my first advice:
it would be better, if you'd seperate the whole project into small parts and let (different) people just work for one part and pay'em. on pc games you're using lot of other libs too, the modellers are using 3dsmax/maya, the coder are using a licensed engine like cryengine and the gamedesigner use 3d party scripting languages like LUA. and all the modules are used to make one game. do it the same way.
for example:
-editor
-sprite engine
-sound engine
-gui
-user input/character controll
-AI
-scripting
of course, you'd have to know a little bit about coding to be able to read the doc of the modules (they're the most important part!!) to check if they're OK. but this is why so many projects fail, people without any clue of coding, art, sound and projectmanagement start a development team. they say 'I want to have this game, so I did the visionary leadership job, now do/code it' and wonder why the poeple disapear after some time.
so a good leadership with a complete design paper is more important than money. the Projects I worked on had design papers with about 200.
all circumstances of the game have to be planed bevor the first line of code is written. with a perfect design paper I would never have to ask about details. but just look at the most teams, they have a vision of a great game, but they even didn't know how the gui and user input will be handled.
so, my second advice:
if you've never managed a team bevor or you're not capable of doing it, take a published game and make a clone of it. all questions from the programmer to the gamedesigner/leader about the game, like "how big will the sprites be, how many of them will be seen simultaneously, how big will a level be, how does the multiplayer work, is there something special to take care about from the start of coding to not have to rewrite big parts of the game...".
then it will be much easier for the coder to do it and now you've really a chance to finish a game.
but how do you find a coder that will do it? how can you decide at the begining about the capabilities of the coder?
my third advice:
there are some standards in the industry, they are one of this small things that seperate the professional coders or advance hobbiest from the coders that will never finish a game.
first of all: a nightly build. all professional teams have a server that builds each night a running version with the new code that was made during the day.
for example the level editor: in the first week you should get a paper of the funktions that the editor will have and to order of their implementation, like a window that shows the spritetable, then the selection of arbitary sprites, then placing them on the level, then showing a randomised collision mask, then drawing own collision masks... (there are free project management tools that allow the coder to set the actual progress and the leader to look at it and at the planed date for finishing the actual part of the projects)
The next week, if you pull each night the new version, you should see the progress, you can eveny tell the coder some bugs and check after some days.
there is the second standard: bugtracking software, you should never have to take part on a conversation like "did I tell you about the bug?" - "yes I fixed it" - "no, it's still there" - "THIS bug, I fixed the other" - "there was an other bug?" ....
-> bugtracking software, some people can report bugs, coder can resolve bugs, and the reporter of the bug can close it if he thinks it's fixed or reopen it if it still apears.
The coder should be able to use this standards, they should even insist on it.
money is just a motivation, it's not the reason why a projects complets or fails.
greets
rapso
#19683 - Sweex - Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:56 am
It is nearly impossible to do multi-person development without actually having met those people in person.
They way I like to do things is this: I code pretty much everything I need. Once I actually manage that, THEN I'll start asking an artist and a musician (luckily a very good friend of mine composes nice music). As I know the specs of it, the artist/musician will know how and what to make, and also have some guarantee that it will be finished as I can run the game with dummy data.
Food for thought; Ask yourself why you would succeed managing a (small) game project, where lots of real industry companies go bust because of bad management?
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#19710 - sajiimori - Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:45 pm
Lots of pessimism in this thread. Don't worry guys, widescreen is not trying to rip you off. He's just very passionate about his game idea and he's having trouble finding people who are willing to implement it for him.
If you look at sucessful independent or hobby projects, you'll consistently find that the leadership wasn't in the form of a manager, designer, or producer. You'll find that they were all run by great programmers and artists -- people who produce something indispensable to the project.
Chris Roberts, Sid Meier, Richard Garriot, Peter Molyneux, Chris Taylor, Will Wright -- some of the current and past big names in game design, and all of them programmed their own games.
#19824 - Sweex - Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:42 am
I'd prefer to call it scepticism instead of pessimism. We all know the internet is full of lamers/fakers.
"...people who produce something indispensable to the project". With all the respect, I never got the idea that widescreen is producing either code or art (but it is not denied either).
Me personally haven't got a lot of time on my hand s and certainly don't want to commit to any GBA project, sorry!:-)
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#19842 - Cyberman - Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:23 pm
It might make things easier if a qualified and quantified project were laid out.
That is you set your design goals and reach them.
To be flexible have milestone evaluation points. For example lets say it's originally decided to have a simple fade in for combat scenes in an RPG. You reach the milestone of having the test data successfully fade in the test combat scene without problem. However it looks boring so it's earmarked for later to fix the boringness and get on with the program. The combat system is completed and the script engine is completed the following two months. Now during this time discusion has gone on how to make the combat scene start up and leave smoother and cooler. At this time, you add a deviation to your original plan and redo the loading and exfoliation (grin) of the combat screen. Since this is a change it costs more.
It's a common problem called creeping featuritus and it's often FATAL to any project. Don't add features tell the project WORKS. At that point you branch off and add features carefully. Generally this is not a problem for most things. Something as complex as NWN however requires you to make the engine and script engine flexible enough to modify to begin with (which in my experience they didn't kind of sad).
If you think you will change something plan ahead. That's all I have to say. Adding features without planing for them is often fatal to any project.
If you think you need to add feature half way through the game, that requires you to restart the game programing, then you didn't do the proper planing to begin with. Really plan and plan ahead and you'll have less pain in the long run.
Back to the main subject
As for the 'saving' half the money thing, perhaps you should do that if they DON'T reach the milestone, when they finish the project they get the money however if they are behind a week already it means they will miss ALL there milestones (unless they work really hard).
Cyb
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#19848 - sajiimori - Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:58 pm
| Quote: |
With all the respect, I never got the idea that widescreen is producing either code or art (but it is not denied either).
|
You're right; I wasn't clear in my earlier post. I meant it as a possible explanation for why he's had trouble finding (and keeping) developers.
#19887 - widescreen - Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:13 pm
Wow! Some excellent and detailed replies here. Thanks very much.
Looks like there's a lot of different opinions. The bottom line for me is that it seems that the paying of money is STILL not a garauntee that the coder/artist will actually complete the project - as someone pointed out, it's an incentive but not an absolute. I think that would change dramatically if the money was more. Would you make SURE to finish the project if the payment scheme was exactly as laid out above but the game completion bonus was ?50,000? I reckon most would say 'yes'.
A few ppl have alluded to the 'organising' of the development schedule. I have organised the development of the game in a similiar structure to the current games industry model. i.e. Setting achievable goals per each milestone. Initially getting the main basic game done, then adding features and extras per each MS (as someone mentioned above).
The problem arose when team members didn't meet the MS (which I think even they would agree was achievable) simply because they didn't have enough time to commit to the project. Obviously, when your dealing with a home development team, ppl's lives must be taken into account. This would be different if they were being paid for their work, but when it's free, it's difficult to demand work on time. Hence, even though I agree with the above suggestion re' regular builds, I can't see that happening realistically due to the 'work for free Vs time on hands' issue.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the fact that ppl ARE working for free, means you can only ask so much of them. I also found that many ppl wanted to do the project, but once it all got going, realised just how hard work it was going to be and realised they wouldn't be able to commit.
BTW - I stress again - this is NOT an offer for work!
I'm just interested in other's opinions and experiences in home development projects. At some point, I hope to either resurrect the current project or start a new one and want to avoid the problems I've had with this one. But right now, I'm NOT touting for coders in this post. :)
I'm neither a coder, nor an artist. I wish I was, but I'm simply not learned enough in the ways of numbers to be a coder & whilst I'm ok (ish) at art, enough to do placeholder stuff, I wouldn't be able to rely on myself to do anything other than that. I'm a game designer by trade and hoped to use my industry knowledge and experience in both producing and designing a game using the [very] few means available. As starting up my own studio is nigh on impossible due to the lack of funds, I wanted to try to see if I could emulate a studio using a similiar team and methods of working that would be used in the industry. It's funny but, the failure of the project has indeed taught me some very important lessons should I wish to try again.
Personally, I don't subscribe to the opinion that only someone who is contributing to the actual assets of the game would be successfull. But then I WOULD say that! :)
Thanks for all yor replies - given me some nice fresh food for thought.
Regards.
#20195 - muffles - Tue May 04, 2004 2:49 pm
i would work if there was a real change of money and not only after completion but during the making of the game. I helped many people, but I hardly haven't received any money for it and that is not really motivating
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#20271 - wintermute - Wed May 05, 2004 10:36 pm
| Sweex wrote: |
It is nearly impossible to do multi-person development without actually having met those people in person.
|
I'd disagree with that completely. There's no reason why you should ever have to meet the people in person - I've actually experienced cases where physical meeting has been detrimental to the working relationship for all sorts of reasons. This is the 21st century - there are many ways of working with people separated by great distances.
| Sweex wrote: |
Food for thought; Ask yourself why you would succeed managing a (small) game project, where lots of real industry companies go bust because of bad management? |
one word - publishers.
#20281 - Sweex - Thu May 06, 2004 9:02 am
Guess I should restate. It is not impossible to do multi-person development without having met those people in person *from a theoretical point of view*! The internet makes it perfectly possible to do your work being seperated by great distances. But I doubt it will not work unless it is a professional business having set up rules and will pay. People just don't know what to expect from complete strangers. After all, that's what we are to each other when you first start communicating over the internet. I think amateur multi-person development relies on alot on trust.
And about the publishers. That is a bit short sighted isn't it? Don't get me wrong; most publishers are scum, and their also the main reason that I lost my previous job. BUT a) publishers are not solely responsible for how a business is ran, so it still comes down to the management of the company to some extent, and b) amateur/startup development teams need a publisher too to get some money in, don't they?
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#20300 - sajiimori - Thu May 06, 2004 7:30 pm
You might say there are many barriers to completing a project, and each one makes completion more difficult / less likely.
Is everybody in the same time zone, or close? Are regular meetings held? Is there frequent real-time communication? Does everybody like the game concept? Is everyone contributing directly to development? And, of course, is everybody reliable and trustworthy?
If you can answer "yes" to all those, I think the project has a pretty good chance. Sure, you may never know that your team is trustworthy, but that doesn't affect whether they actually are trustworthy. Besides, there are still no guarantees when you meet people face to face.
#20399 - muffles - Mon May 10, 2004 10:24 am
I made many games online. So I never met the other team members and it all worked. So I don't see any problem in that. Publishers however are a different story. They indeed use you for the lowest amount of money and if they can.. no money at all. So either freelance or shareware would be better
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-----------------------------------------
Latest project: PushEm - a game for all ages.
Visit the website and meet Maxter the hamster
www.pushem.ukgamers.net/
Personal art - www.muffles-online.com
#20408 - Miked0801 - Mon May 10, 2004 5:51 pm
Ah publisher - the root of all necessary evils :)