#47906 - Defect - Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:13 pm
Hello all.
I'm currently leading the DoomDS project over at http://dual-soft.com/doomds/ and we are after some programming assistance. Will from dual-soft will be starting work on a tech demo soon, so any help would be greatly appreciated in speeding up the development.
We are getting through the art quite quickly and are needing to do some testing on the DS to help finalise polygon counts and texture details.
With the help of this community I hope we can not only create a great FPS game, but also a great engine for future community projects.
Thanks,
Defect.
#48073 - dovoto - Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:13 am
I am sure you have been informed of this allready but there is about a 2048 poly per frame limit (regardless of frames per second). I would work on the background engine first and get that down to a resonable poly count (is doom zero overdraw?)..you should then know how many polies you have left over for your models.
The project looks very well thought out and if i had the time it would be a lot of fun. Good luck with it and if you need your models loaded on ds i can probably do that much (what format are they in as doom used sprites for models ?).
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#48076 - sajiimori - Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:33 am
The original Doom used raycasting and was therefore zero overdraw. I bet a straightforward port would run well on DS. Just a little low-level input and video code should do it...
Edit: That's not to derogate any effort toward creating a new true 3D Doom for DS. I'd love to see it.
Last edited by sajiimori on Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
#48077 - dovoto - Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:36 am
ahh..so no polys on the background at all...this makes using the 3D engine for the models somewhat difficult. Might be better off porting the background engine to use hardware 3D as mixing a 2D background with 3D models without access to the z buffer (which we dont have) will be very challenging.
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#48093 - tepples - Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:24 am
Doom was not raycasting or portalcasting. It was BSP based, just like the Quake series. The OpenGL ports of Doom such as Doom Legacy do a good job of drawing the walls using the 3D card.
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#48094 - dovoto - Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:26 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Doom was not raycasting or portalcasting. It was BSP based, just like the Quake series. The OpenGL ports of Doom such as Doom Legacy do a good job of drawing the walls using the 3D card. |
Okay this is much more inline with what i remember. A porting the gl port would probably be the easiest way to go.
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#48116 - Eclipse - Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:23 am
Hey guys, I'm a modeler on Doom DS and I just wanted to start off by saying thanks for the intrest in the project. We have been informed about the poly limitions but at the moment are thinking of ways around it such as adding some nice fog effects to the larger, more open levels, of course culling will be implimented and if need be, some different LODs will be implmented. We are keeping the model below 400 tris for normal units and 500 for the larger/boss units. As far as coding, I am only speaking for myself here, but I don't know a lick of it, or what you all are talking about, hehe.
#48123 - tepples - Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:05 am
How many tris are you going to use for enemy corpses, given that there might be 10 or 20 in a room at once?
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#48125 - Defect - Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:51 am
For corpses, I'd like to see an effect similar to that of doom3 where the demons bodies kind of 'burnt away'. But i would like to see it done in a way that gives the impression of a rotting corpse. Having the models skin slowly darken while the effect takes place should do nicely, without being visualy demanding.
Of course having the bodies dissapear gives little use to the Arch Vile. For situations in a level where there is an Arch Vile, perhaps a 'slow rot' tag could be applied to all enemies in that room to allow more time for the Arch Vile to do hes work.
I'm sure players would try and lure an Arch Vile into another area to try and ressurect lots of monsters, hopefully the rotting feature will stop any potential 'overdraw of monsters' problems.
As for the polygon limits, i'm pretty confident that even with such a limit, we can deliver a great game. I'm doing alot of level design with the limitations taken into consideration. With some clever texture use its surprising what can be made to look good.
The polygon levels COULD go alot lower, a LOD system could be implimented, possibly even sprite replacement for distant models could be used, this can be unnoticeable if done right. There are alot of ways around this limit.
The next update on the DoomDS page will have alot more Media.
Thanks for your interest.
#48140 - Lordieth - Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:15 pm
While I may not have any programming skills that would be benificial to this project, I am taking a keen interest in it's development, i've got experience in skinning and creating textures, so if you ever need any help in that department, I may be interested :)
#48156 - sajiimori - Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:43 pm
Tepples, I may be using a broader definition of "ray casting" that includes more than just Wolf3D-style orthogonal traces. Doom traces a ray front-to-back through the BSP until it hits a wall, stopping along the way to draw partial walls like stairs.
#48338 - Defect - Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:20 am
Providing we use as many optimizing techniques as possible, such as back face culling and design levels sensibly, there is a good chance we will see quite a few enemies on screen at once.
Level design wont get too intricate. Some areas may creep into quake levels of detail, but generally it will keep pretty faithful to the original games.
With the right use of graphical effects such as colored lighting, shaders, particles, volumetric fog, flares etc, DoomDS levels will look nice without needing alot of detail.
Model format is is not decided on. Formats such as md2 may not be ideal for use on the DS, I guess we will have to see what works best and go with it.
Sprites will be used whenever its not noticable.
#48943 - FireSlash - Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:05 pm
Lets play "do the math!"
Assuming: 400 polys per baddie.
5 baddies is 2,000. Name a Doom scene that has more than 5 baddies. I'm sure that took long :P
Now, figure about 20 to 80 polys for a normal scene, up to 100 in some more complex areas. We can be generous and say 10 polys per ammo box, and assume weapon pickups will run around 40 polys...
So in a regular scene, you will probably only get 4 baddies on the screen before you hit the limit. Oops!
Now, lets calculate in LOD levels.
Assume LOD cuts polycounts by 1/4 (Also factors in for backface removal, if not done automagically)
* 100 polys per baddie, on nightmare with a room of 10 baddies (1000)
* 80 for the world
* 40 in ammo boxes (4)
* 30 for that shotgun pickup
* 40 for your on-hand weapon
* 10 for projectiles in-air
1200 polys on the screen so far.
Now, pick off two at a distance, and move closer to the rest for shotty death, now at 1/2 regular polys
1000 - 200
800 * 2 + 200
1800 polys + 200 in corpses
2000 polys
At this point, make the mistake of walking up next to a baddie and you just hit the poly ceiling.
Oh-- lets not forget baddies RESPAWN on nightmare. :D
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#48947 - Eclipse - Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:54 pm
| Defect wrote: |
| For corpses, I'd like to see an effect similar to that of doom3 where the demons bodies kind of 'burnt away'. But i would like to see it done in a way that gives the impression of a rotting corpse. Having the models skin slowly darken while the effect takes place should do nicely, without being visualy demanding. |
:). Not everything may be the same as the original Doom games, we have to work with what we are given. We are trying to make a project that we want to do, and are looking for people to help, not post math we have already thought of to try and discourge us. It seems like you are trying to grill are efforts, and for what? If you don't want to help us, thats cool, but you don't have to make a post like you just did, it does nothing for our efforts of looking for new teammates.
#48986 - Defect - Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:22 am
If i had've known Good Will Hunting was going to be online, I would've worn socks without holes.
We've done the math too, and its not as bad as you think.
LOD is not just for distance. Its to do with whats on screen as well, c'mon Will, you should've know that. If you have a scene that is over the poly limit, each model would be taken to a lower level for everything to be under the limit. It would be just plain stupid for it to be based only on distance.
We may also use sprites for long distance stuff, it works well.
20 - 80 poly's for a normal scene and upto 100? This isnt Wolfenstien.
Nightmare mode is obviously a feature that is not really pratical for the DS. DoomDS is going to be a Doom game, but of course when working with limitations, there will be some changes.
Last edited by Defect on Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:10 am; edited 1 time in total
#48991 - Ethos - Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:22 am
2048 polys per frame...
Not a total of 2048 polys...not every poly will be in the view port.
Another option is to have multiple models, high poly in front, low poly in distance...
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#49007 - Lord Graga - Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:35 pm
I'd suggest that you start off using simple quads with alpha channels for the models, like in DoomGL, and then 3d model support later on.
It is also a waste to use polys on the player's weapon, why not just pre-render it?
#49020 - Defect - Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:46 pm
Yeah for sure, sprites will probably be used for early testing, but the monsters will be 3D. Playing a Doom port with freelook highlights the weakness of sprites. If DoomDS did not have freelook, then perhaps sprites would'nt look too bad. Its time to move on from sprites though, the DS can handle it.
Weapons may end up being sprites, it all depends how things look. Lighting always looks better on 3D weapons, but the effect may be barely noticable on the DS screen. This is among alot of issues that testing will help us decide on.
#49026 - sajiimori - Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:20 pm
The DS can do 3D monsters of course, but I would be surprised (and very impressed) if you could get 10-15 on screen at once the way Doom 1 did.
Does anyone else feel that freelook changes Doom in ways that lose some of its charm? I like freelook for most games, but the fixed view kept things simple.
#49030 - Defect - Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:28 pm
Doom64 took advantage of the new hardware the N64 had and improved its visuals.
DoomDS will also improve the visuals but will take full advantage of the touch screen for looking.
Who knows, maybe in Doom for the Nintendo Revolution you will be able to jump?
:P
#49037 - sajiimori - Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:25 pm
| Quote: |
| Who knows, maybe in Doom for the Nintendo Revolution you will be able to jump? :P |
Noooooooo...!! :)
I wouldn't strongly argue against adding freelook, but I don't think "the hardware can do it" is a good reason. It mostly comes down to how true you want to be to the original. I'd like to have more FPS games on DS either way, especially fast-paced ones.
#49039 - wintermute - Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:37 pm
| sajiimori wrote: |
The DS can do 3D monsters of course, but I would be surprised (and very impressed) if you could get 10-15 on screen at once the way Doom 1 did.
Does anyone else feel that freelook changes Doom in ways that lose some of its charm? I like freelook for most games, but the fixed view kept things simple. |
I agree totally.
Personally I think that the DoomDS people are being a little ambitious and setting themselves up for failure. There seems to be a lot of resource management going on and very little research into how they're going to implement things, especially in relation to hardware capabilities.
#49040 - tepples - Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:47 pm
Doom with jumping is Quake. I have a feeling that Id Software specifically wanted to avoid Jumping Flash or Mario 64 style jumping puzzles in the Doom series.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#49044 - Eclipse - Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:56 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| Personally I think that the DoomDS people are being a little ambitious and setting themselves up for failure. There seems to be a lot of resource management going on and very little research into how they're going to implement things, especially in relation to hardware capabilities. |
Better then not trying at all :P. But seriously, in order to research how things are going to be implemented we need a coder of sorts. We both know teh basics of the DS's capabilites, but not the full extent I'm sure. We have both been running numbers through our head and I think with some luck and enginuity we can get around 10 or more monsters on the screen at once, which should be plunty. We have and are continuing to think of ways to get as many monsters on the screen as possible (LOD, Fog effects, sprite replacement, and more) but please don't make the mistake of thinking your the only one who has given any thought to the hardware's capabilites. We are working on preliminary art at the moment, which will change as needed.
We posted this thread in hopes of finding someone intrested in helping us with our vision (a coder), not to find people to try and tear it to shreads :).
#49065 - FourScience - Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:45 am
Lowering monster counts on a single screen-view is easy, and will probably help the gameplay. With some very simple monster AI/coordination, they can be scattered and spread in distance from the player, which is definitely more natural than all of them hoarding at the player from one side.
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#49077 - Eclipse - Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:48 am
| FourScience wrote: |
| Lowering monster counts on a single screen-view is easy, and will probably help the gameplay. With some very simple monster AI/coordination, they can be scattered and spread in distance from the player, which is definitely more natural than all of them hoarding at the player from one side. |
Exactly what we had in mind! We will be crafting the levels so that all the monsters look as good as possible and the character won't overwhelm themselves :P.
#49090 - Defect - Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:55 am
Jumping in a Revolution version of Doom was just a gag.
Even though freelook was never in Doom, it never seems to feel different when playing a port that supports it. Its quite natural and I dont think it adds so much that it no longer feels like Doom. I agree completely with Tepples, that if jumping was added it would feel like Quake.
Jumping sections in games really shit me, I remeber becoming furious when i first played Turok on the N64, that was a terrible game.
Its inevitable that for Doom to be brought onto the DS with full 3D models, that the monster counts will be less then the original games.
There will no doubt be sections of levels that are low detail enough that we can cram alot of baddies in there without a problem.
Hit points and energy levels for the monsters will be tweaked untill the balance between numbers and strength is just right.
Every art asset being made has limits placed on it. There are polygon levels for monsters and limits on texture sizes. Maps are being heavily tested to be sure that r_speeds are low.
DoomDS will be a new Doom for a new system, but it wont be new in the Doom3 sense.
#49118 - sajiimori - Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:13 pm
Worried about id at all? If I were them, I might feel a little offended at someone pulling out the DS market from under me.
#49133 - Defect - Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:18 pm
If id contact me and ask me to stop work on the project, then i will. I'm not using any of id's art assets at all. All textures are 100% new remakes, with the exception of the Demon faces, but they wont be used anyway.
Sound and music will be the only aspect of the project to be used from other versions of Doom. Look at what the Doom64: Absolution project got away with, they released all the art and sound content from Doom64 over the net and nothing was said to them.
id has moved on from the original Doom series to Doom3. If they were to release anything on the DS it would be set in the Doom3 universe or another developer would get the rights to publish yet another port of plain old Doom.
If a developer decides to take the same path as DoomDS, then that would be fantastic. I just hope they dont do a straight port of Doom64 or original Doom.
I'm pretty confident that Doom3 wont make it to the DS, it would be SNES Doom all over again.
#49152 - FourScience - Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:55 pm
| sajiimori wrote: |
| Worried about id at all? If I were them, I might feel a little offended at someone pulling out the DS market from under me. |
It's homebrew. DoomDS won't take any share of the "DS market."
id is the type that supports and encourages ports and mods of the original Doom. There's smart enough to look at legal ports and mods as compliments rather than something offensive. This is also not the first non-commercial port of Doom to a handheld device.
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#49530 - dovoto - Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:56 pm
I dont know if this is pertentent to this channel but i did a port of a doom style 3D engine. It has a bit better graphics than doom engine imo but its poly count seems a little high. It is set up for MD2 model loading (although it is not currently functioning) or sprites, or a mix. It also looks and performs rather well.
demo
http://www.drunkencoders.com/temp/cool.zip
source
http://www.drunkencoders.com/temp/yeti.rar
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#49572 - Defect - Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:26 pm
That sounds really interesting dovoto. I'm yet to have my GBA flash cart so i am unable to try it on my DS. Do you know of a location to download a .gba version? I'd like to try it on an emu.
#49574 - wintermute - Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:37 pm
| Defect wrote: |
| That sounds really interesting dovoto. I'm yet to have my GBA flash cart so i am unable to try it on my DS. Do you know of a location to download a .gba version? I'd like to try it on an emu. |
did you even look at the archive? It contains bot ds.gba and .nds files
#49589 - dovoto - Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:10 pm
| Defect wrote: |
| That sounds really interesting dovoto. I'm yet to have my GBA flash cart so i am unable to try it on my DS. Do you know of a location to download a .gba version? I'd like to try it on an emu. |
Sorry no emulators run it as far as i know else i would have posted a screen shot or two. The engine does have an editor (which is in the yeti.zip although you may need to build it). If anyone wants to make a level I can stick it in and see how it performs. I am not sure if my poly counter is off but the engine may be a bit too poly heavy for the DSs low vertex threshold when combined with 3D enimies.
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#49641 - Defect - Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:17 am
I did wintermute, but these files are still DS files are they not? This is a port to the DS so it wont run on a GBA emu.
I've looked around and cant find any of the original GBA Yeti3D roms. All sites link to the official page which is no longer online. Bugger.
I would like to have a crack at making a level for it dovoto.
#49642 - dovoto - Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:22 am
Google should find you lots of copies of the gba version...just keep in mind only the earlier version was open source so finding the original might be a challenge....but as luck would have it, were you to open up the source distrabution i provided above you would find within the gba version that bares compiling.
I have no idea what tools you will need to build the gba version though..I would recomend you build the PC version and perhaps alter it to allow easy swapping in and out of maps. You might also be able to find a better version of the editor online. It is a shame that yeti is gone (i imagine they sold their technology) but we still have this little bit to play with.
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#49694 - Defect - Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:03 pm
I have no way of compiling the GBA version. The only compiling i do is of the level design variety.
With these recent developments of a Heretic port and the Yeti3D port, things are looking good for DS FPS.
Posted movie clip on DoomDS page of test level, let me know what you think.
http://dual-soft.com/doomds/
#49712 - dovoto - Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:39 pm
What codec is that avi rendered with? Does not play on my out-of-the-box server 2003 install.
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#49746 - Defect - Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:16 am
It was rendered with Indeo Video 5. If for some reason you cant get it to run dovoto let me know, and ill render it with somethng else.