#45528 - gauauu - Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:36 pm
I'm going to post this at the risk of sounding like a troll, but really, that's not my intention. Let me preface this all by saying I'm really impressed with the both the ability and friendliness of the gba homebrew scene, and also that this is coming from someone who has only completed tiny demos on the gba, (I haven't finished my first real game)
Ok, that being said, here's my question. Tonight I finally got around to downloading a bunch of the homebrew games that have been floating around this site and some of the other homebrew gba sites. I loaded them all up on my flashcart and sat down to enjoy.
I was really impressed by the production quality on most of them...you guys are good! But after 20 minutes, I realized.....with a few exceptions, after 1-5 minutes with each game, that was plenty for me...the "fun" and playability isn't usually there. Now I understand the difficulty in making a game (I'm trying myself), so the goal of this post is to merely help myself understand the reasons involved, and also to here some general opinions and get discussion going about the game design aspect of the homebrew scene. I'm not trying to rip on people's games.
First, I want to mention the difference in development between homebrew and commercial games, which probably plays into this somewhat:
1. homebrewers generally don't get paid, so they have a significantly different motivation.
2. homebrewers are generally a 1-2 man show, leaving less room for game designers, testers, user feedback, etc. Additionally, because of the necessary programming skill, game "visionaries" (who aren't technically skilled but might have really good ideas) don't have a place in such a small team.
3. homebrew games can released, even if they might not be "finished"
I wrote these out because I really think that's how this question/conversation focuses on homebrew games instead of all games, commercial or whatnot. My focus is less on "what makes a game good" and more on "what are the factors that make homebrew games less appealing to play, and how can I avoid them"
Anyway, that being said, here's my wonderings.....why the lack of playability in most of the homebrew games?
1. Because of the huge amount of work needed to make a game, are these SUPPOSED to be more like demos than a full game? Is it a case of "hey, making that one level was fun, that's enough for me. Making the other levels isn't fun, and I'm just doing this for fun"....so the game was never intented to be a long-term playable game?
2. Am I just too old and jaded in my gaming? Back in the 80's I could play any game for hours, but now I'm just more picky....maybe these games actually are as playability as many commercial games, but I give up on those commercial games just as quickly?
3. Sometimes the playability suffers so much from one little flaw, like pretty scary hit-detection....I guess that flaw could either be a technical one (beginner programmer, like me, implementing it the best way they know how), or maybe it's a design/laziness flaw?
4. Is it the ever-present problem of the developer being so attached to his creation that he fails to stop think about "is it fun"....he is so used to playing his own game through the 800 iterations of design and testing that he fails to realize that this game design just isn't very good? (I personally spent 3+ years working on a pc rpg game that, as I'm finishing up, I'm realizing probably isn't going to be very fun)
5. Is it the human psychological trap of finding more value in things you paid more money for? If I had paid money for these games, would I have spent more time playing, finding all the good aspects, whereas if it's free, I can easily dismiss it as "not fun"?
I guess really the first question makes the initial difference....what is the programmers goal (fun to make vs fun to play). To crank out a working game, or to make a game that's going to remembered and played repeatedly?
In the case of the 2nd question.(am I old and jaded)...well, there's no real happy answer for that one.
As I think about it, the solution to number 3 and 4, if I really wanted to make a playable game, is to get a lot of people to give real feedback throughout the development process. Identify the areas where the game is lacking, and would turn players off, and then make a priority of resolving them.
So I guess I've sort of answered a lot of my own questions....anyone have any thoughts?
And by the way, here's to hoping that the games on the compo cart will change my mind and prove me not to be old and jaded ;-)
#45530 - MrD - Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:02 pm
Most of the stuff I end up making are simply by-products of me learning how to make stuff, that's why they're usually a bit crap.
And I wouldn't personally say that homebrew games lack fun and playability, either. I believe that some games may not have all the features or content found in a commercial game because people just, y'know, get bored of making the same game forever and ever. Commercial programmers don't usually have that option and if they do, then they're either:
A) Lucky bastards who pull off their ideas with panache and become amazing uber folks.
or
B) Folks whos ideas get hideously twisted and truncated during production and the final thing is nothing like the guy said it would've been, although the guy readily defends that all features are included. (Peter Molyneux - Black and White, Fable...)
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#45531 - tepples - Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:05 pm
| gauauu wrote: |
| But after 20 minutes, I realized.....with a few exceptions, after 1-5 minutes with each game, that was plenty for me...the "fun" and playability isn't usually there. |
What are the "few exceptions" so that we can learn from what games do right?
| Quote: |
| 1. Because of the huge amount of work needed to make a game, are these SUPPOSED to be more like demos than a full game? Is it a case of "hey, making that one level was fun, that's enough for me. Making the other levels isn't fun, and I'm just doing this for fun"....so the game was never intented to be a long-term playable game? |
If a game is released with a level editor, a collaborative effort can be made around it.
| Quote: |
| 2. Am I just too old and jaded in my gaming? |
Possibly. Homebrew games are about as good as many early NES games were. Kids tend to be more easily amused.
| Quote: |
| 3. Sometimes the playability suffers so much from one little flaw, like pretty scary hit-detection....I guess that flaw could either be a technical one (beginner programmer, like me, implementing it the best way they know how), or maybe it's a design/laziness flaw? |
In most of the homebrew games that I've played, hit detection is a problem with the size of hit boxes.
| Quote: |
| As I think about it, the solution to number 3 and 4, if I really wanted to make a playable game, is to get a lot of people to give real feedback throughout the development process. Identify the areas where the game is lacking, and would turn players off, and then make a priority of resolving them. |
And that's where being in college, around a bunch of other gamers, really helped when I was tweaking the GBA port of TOD.
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#45672 - ScottLininger - Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:25 pm
I think the biggest problem is wading through all of the little tech demos and learning exercises on the downloads screens. It would be neat if there was a GBA homebrew site that had more metadata about each ROM: number of downloads, level of completeness, user reviews and ratings, etc.
Something like you see on downloads.com would allow you to quickly find the finished games. :)
-Scott
#45847 - Puffin - Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:24 pm
To be involved in this, you need to be very well into the programming world. You simply cannot come to this forum and say "I have this great idea, can you make it for me?" because you will immediately be outcast by the people who do the "real work" and want to implement their own ideas.
In most cases, I will absolutely refuse to make someone else's game as well. Nobody wants to be the guy that does all of the work and doesn't get any creative input.
But, how much creative input are we really putting into our games? If you could compare the amount of time you spent writing your collision detection and the amount of time you spent researching and designing a fun, effective (and rational!) game paradigm, which would you say you spent more on?
It frustrates me to no end that people here dedicate hours and hours of tedious labor only to ignore the fact that they are actually making a game.
The player should know what consequences come with what actions. The player should not be confused. The player should always be challenged. There should be clear rules and concepts. Keep it simple but also make it unique!
You've spent years and years learning to be a programmer. Take some time and learn how to become a game designer. Do it on a sheet of paper. Draw scenarios and "screenshots". Get far away from a computer and think of something that's a game and not a technical demo. Programming it will become the easy part.
#45888 - Deanonious - Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:17 am
I would have to agree with Scott on this one, many of the downloads here are merely tech demos, they were never meant to be full "Games". I will not complain though because the rationality behind releaseing tech demos is usually "I figured out how to do this, now I'm going to share it with everyone" many of them may have lots of game functionality but never get the polish of a real game and a lot only have a level or two to play around with. I do think that a little more information on the Downloads would be really useful.
I think a lot of people make there demos and learn how to get something working and then decide I could code this better in my actual game, or this works well but I need to make it this way so it will work with my actual game. Sometimes it could be as simple as well I got it to work in C now let me code it in ASM to make it more efficient.
Dean
#46003 - expos1994 - Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:59 pm
From my experience it's tough because I have to first imagine the game in my head. Then I have to create the game. And the whole time I'm making graphics and coding I'm imagining how fun it will be.
The last game I made I added more features as development went on. I imagined in my head how it would be, then I would spend about 20 hours or so implementing the idea. Now that's a lot of time just to see if I was right about it being fun. What if I spent 100 hours on an idea and realized it was a crap idea? Maybe I'll throw my hands up and quit. Maybe I'll release it anyway. Who knows.
I think there lies the problem. A great programmer may be a crappy game designer. The can make a beautiful explosion and a great inventory system, but the game as a whole is clunky and boring.
I like to think of myself as a game designer first, and programmer/artist second. Since I'm not the greatest programmer and I don't know all the ins and outs of the GBA, I use my limited resources to make my game as fun as I envisioned it.
I think the biggest problem in homebrew is that a lot of times it's a single programmer making the game. He/she may suffer from lack of creativity. Maybe he/she can't draw worth a squat and the graphics are no good. Or maybe he/she needs the guidance of a designer to say this would be fun, that would make it better, or this needs to be here.
I think homebrew playability suffers because there are at least 3-4 distinct skills that a game creator has to have (art, design, programming, and sound). And any lack in any part of that equation will make the overall game playability suffer. Commercial don't have this problem. They have all of these components (or else the company would go under).
So they guy with the technically awesome (but boring) game and the guy with the simple yet fun game need to get together with a great artist and a great musician and make a stinkin game. Get the idea from the guy with the simple yet fun game, he might have a notebook full of em.
#46107 - gauauu - Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:39 am
Thanks for all the thoughts, y'all.
I think I concur with most of what everyone said, which basically sums up to:
1. The symptom of "developer does all" that expos and puffin discussed...this one is tough :)
2. The demos vs games like Scott and Deanonious said. This is easy....to have a central place for completed games. I guess that requires somebody with some good hosting and some web coding skills. I could do the web coding part.....does anyone with good hosting and good ideas for UI/organization wanna make this happen with me?
As for tepple's question of the few exceptions: I generally find that for homebrew scene, the puzzle gamestend to be much more playable. (and I'm not even a big puzzle game fan). Maybe that's because they need less put into them to make a full game (less art, less level design, generally "block" shaped hit detection, etc).
#46112 - Puffin - Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:42 pm
I think another reason puzzle games are often more playable is that they are usually more abstract than, say, a platform game.
The developer can often lose himself or herself in the semantics of a game. In a puzzle game, the developer is more likely to remember what the game is about at the core: a situation with information, actions and consequences.
#46256 - lgo - Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:47 am
By the way, is there a site that has a list of released homebrew games for the GBA ? Something like with ratings and reviews.
Or has anyone got a list of the definitive homebrew games that one should try out ? I have tested out some of the games out there, but I just dont have the interest to test every little crappy game that are either unfinished or just some "demos".
#46279 - Fatnickc - Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:42 pm
I know not all (most) of my 'games' are great fun, but they serve their purposes. Even for a very simple game, adding a multiplayer element to it (even on the same console, at the same time, like a few games in the original WarioWare) adds alot of fun, for minimal effort.
I don't really agree that if someone asked me to make a game, I wouldn't do it. After all, I enjoy making games, and solving problems. Sometimes I'm stuck for ideas, and am grateful for them. Also, I enjoy people's reactions to the games, to improve in the future. Just recently I made a very simple game in a few hours, after being asked by one of my friends. It played on an in-joke, and was multiplayer. It doesn't look that great, but it is good fun, even if I do say so myself.
However, if someone I didn't know asked me to make a game, I might not do it, if I didn't want to or was doing something else. If I did choose to try it out, I probably wouldn't mention the fact that I was, they needn't know I existed. Sometimes we're all stuck for ideas.
But what's important is that I do like making games, and improving them. Solving problems to really test my brain. That's what I like, and if I can get a little help in the ideas department, I'm not complaining.
#46326 - gauauu - Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:48 am
| lgo wrote: |
By the way, is there a site that has a list of released homebrew games for the GBA ? Something like with ratings and reviews.
|
I haven't seen one. But I'm tempted to make one, if I had a good place to host it (gbadev?)
#54801 - Palamon - Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:45 pm
| ScottLininger wrote: |
I think the biggest problem is wading through all of the little tech demos and learning exercises on the downloads screens. It would be neat if there was a GBA homebrew site that had more metadata about each ROM: number of downloads, level of completeness, user reviews and ratings, etc.
Something like you see on downloads.com would allow you to quickly find the finished games. :)
-Scott |
I was thinking the exact same thing, because after I am finished my first game, I would like to post it on a "good" homebrew game site.
I say a good site, not to say that this site isn't a good game development site, but that it isn't a very good site to post your game along with screenshoots and a brief synapsis, and allow others to download, play and review your game with high frequency.
There needs to be a site that makes looking through the games more like the other sites that review commercial games, and only feature the complete games and have a demo section.
#54806 - Fatnickc - Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:36 pm
(Wow, life has been brought to this old topic)
This site is actually very useful for posting demos, because, as opposed to simply people playing through the game and saying 'cool', you can get constructive criticism, and ideas on how you could actually improve it.
#54823 - Palamon - Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:44 pm
Hehehe, I guess I did, although I guess not many people post new topics on this forum.
Actually, I also wanted to add to the topic, that a reason why some homebrew games kind of trail off after the first level is because I know when I have an idea for a game, I get really excited and can't get it out of my head thinking of all the details and such. (although now I found that keeping an idea book on hand where I record those ideas for later use helps my mind rest at night)
But when I go to make those ideas come to life, it takes a lot longer then expected. (I'm still working on my first game :-P) and after you finially get an engine to run the game up and running, and all the basics are done, and you see your creation come to life the way you seen it in your head, you kind of lose some of the excitement of making a full fledged game unless you planned out the levels before hand.
I mean especially for adventure games, coming up with new levels that are fun and inovative, (especially if you are going for a full game of 30-100+ levels) making all of them have a high quality can be quite a chore, especially after you run out of ideas after the 10th level)
But not only that, but you have a whole book of new fresh ideas calling out to you, wanting you to quickly finish up the current project and start a new fresh one.
Anyways, that's the game programming demons I am battling right now, that and finding time to actually do stuff. But as for me, my drive toward perfection is too great to be suduced by the temptation of a new project.
#54836 - tepples - Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:51 pm
| Palamon wrote: |
| But not only that, but you have a whole book of new fresh ideas calling out to you, wanting you to quickly finish up the current project and start a new fresh one. |
Unless you are making something like WarioWare, in which every level is a different game.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#54870 - Fatnickc - Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:46 am
Interesting.
I myself find it useful sometimes to keep a note in a book of what I thought of. Once, when I was 10 or 11, I couldn't get to sleep, and, completely by chance, managed to think up an easy way to multiply stuff by 12. I wrote it down, because it looked good, and eventually got to sleep. Now, years on, I can't find that notepad, and I don't remember the idea. This is why I always replace my notebook where I put it, these days, after having an idea.
#54925 - mycatfreddy - Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:53 pm
Realistically - there are not a lot of new ideas in gaming even from commercial developers. With some notable exceptions, the industry seems to be pumping out a lot of great games built on old ideas. (Head over to the game store and count the # of FPS games!)
I think the key to Homebrew is innovation - something that is fresh and fun.
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ok, but only if it's fun.
#55202 - gauauu - Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:26 am
| Quote: |
| you have a whole book of new fresh ideas calling out to you, wanting you to quickly finish up the current project and start a new fresh one. |
Ha, welcome to my life.
Anyway, so here's the question.
I'm willing to sink some time into developing the website code that does something like we were discussing...providing a system of ratings, info about level of completeness, etc, to create a searchable/browsable list of homebrew games and demos. (I may suck as a gba developer, but I'm ok as a web developer).
Questions are:
1. Is this something the community would generally find useful?
2. What features would everyone find to be useful?
3. Optimally, this could integrate into the existance gbadev sight....using the data from the existing giant list of demos, as well as possibly having a "discuss this game" link for each game, pointing to the appropriate thread in this forum. That'd take some cooperation from the site admins....
4. If gbadev wasn't interesting in having it be part of their site, does anyone else have some good hosting that they'd be interested in donating for this?
I'm picturing a system where you could browse by genre, tech demo vs full game, % completeness, popularity, length of gameplay, etc. Allow feedback by users in terms of statiscal ratings, as well as a way to discuss the game, giving real feedback to the developer (possibly through this forum).
What do y'all think?
#55209 - sgeos - Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:47 am
I think user accounts and a voting system would be good. In general, I kind of like the one vote a day system, but that might not be good for rating demos.
-Brendan
#55652 - shen3 - Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:22 am
Hi;
You might want to have a look at pdroms.de
It has a few of those features, and a lot of recognition in the amateur dev community.
If you contact kojote, the owner of the website, he might be happy to let you improve the site by adding more features.
At the moment people can give games scores, but not many are scored, and I don't think you can do searches by score or many other useful features.
Maybe we should all go there are test out 20 or so games each?
Shen