#130956 - GizmoTheGreen - Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:26 pm
hmm, wouldnt it be possible to make carts, like originals, availeble, so homebrewers can buy, and, from some serial solder points or something, program with theyre game, test, and then they assemble it, slap a sticker on there, and voila, a rwal gamecart with theyre game, so theyre icon shows on the ds, with their textm and not the r4ds first, and then you have to boot it from there, anyone gets what im suggesting?
like a "assemble your own HB carts for selling/giving away"
should be cheap, be able to choose from availeble cart sizes and eeprom save sizes, and of course, buy in surplus, 200 pcs at a time
of course, someone with alot of money will have to take this project on, im just bringing the idea ^^
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#130960 - tondopie - Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:12 pm
hmm... some one had the idea of putting DS Homebrew on a DS Linker and changing the sticker... I don't think it will happen though...
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#130977 - GizmoTheGreen - Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:19 pm
well, not exactly ds linker, it wouldnt have any sort of os, like an m3 simply or anything, only the game/app code, so it would be almost like an original cart.
you would "burn" the rom (homebrew), and as soon as youve put it in its casing, its non writable, only your homebrew cart :)
its only and idea for hardware developers, like natrium42?
lets say, the cart itself would cost same as an original cart, with game 30-50$, and you have to buy them surplus (maybe a single sample first, for the price of one) in packs of 20, 50 , 100, 200, etc
someone could make serious money of this, if it becomes something wanted, i for one, would love making cartridges of my future apps/games and sell/give away, and i wouldnt mind oaying several hundreds of dollars for that :)
so i brought this topic up so someone makes it reality XD
*hopes*
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#130979 - tondopie - Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:35 pm
I don't think it would be technically legal to sell homebrew, Nintendo's lawyers would probably sue... :(
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#130981 - tepples - Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:54 pm
| tondopie wrote: |
| I don't think it would be technically legal to sell homebrew, Nintendo's lawyers would probably sue... :( |
Given Nintendo v. Galoob, Sega v. Accolade, Lexmark v. Static Control, and what continues to go on with Datel, the only real way Nintendo could win such a case in the U.S. would be against a defendant who cannot afford counsel. And given companies' tendencies to sue alleged infringers with a larger war chest in order to extract a sizable judgment, the defendant would be the manufacturer of these devices, not the homebrewers themselves, and the manufacturer has the resources.
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#130985 - tondopie - Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:03 pm
I suppose thats true...
What happned to Datel?
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#130989 - tepples - Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:36 pm
| tondopie wrote: |
| What happned to Datel? |
Nothing. Which is entirely the point.
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#130991 - spinal_cord - Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:24 pm
Why not get on to one of the major flash cart manufacturers, to make smaller cart sizes (to avoid use for piracy as homebrew is usually smaller than commercial games) at a cheaper price. perhaps with the possibility to buy many flash carts and only one or two writers.
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#130995 - tondopie - Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:03 am
Like an m3 pro without any external media, just the 4MB RAM made into 4MB NAND or NOR. That would probably be enough for most things.
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#131000 - Lynx - Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:21 am
Good luck. Look at the R4DS/M3 Simply. If manufacturing a cart was cheap, why would M3 cut a deal with the manufacturer to reduce cost?
I think you will find that if you are able to talk a manufacture into producing carts that can't be used for piracy they will require you to pay for all production cost (which won't be cheap, as they have to setup machines to produce your specific product) as well as purchase in HUGE quantities. And I'm not talking 1,000.. Probably more like 10,000. And even if they could (which they probably wouldn't) sell you the cards at $5 each, your talking $50,000 + shipping wich would probably be another $1,000.
The only way you will see a "cheap" homebrew card is if homebrewers make it. It would be like the passme, where some schlub (like me) is sitting in a room soldering chips all day long, woundering how he got himself into this mess to begin with.
That won't happen until the elite few that know how to produce the card encryption make it available in a format the rest of us can understand and use.
EDIT: Can we stickey a topic about homebrew GBA/DS cards already?
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#131001 - tondopie - Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:24 am
God damn it Lynx! You ruined his dream!
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#131010 - Rajveer - Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:23 am
The thing is, I don't see why anybody would really want to sell their code. If they would, then it wouldn't really be homebrew. Would one be selling their game on carts so people without homebrew capability would be able to play the game? If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to get them to buy a flashcart so they can support more homebrew games? Or would they be selling the game for a slight profit?
Also, wouldn't it be less convenient if homebrew games were distributed on carts? At the moment I like the idea of having loads of homebrew games on my Supercard SD without having to carry loads of cartridges. Of course, this post if completely irrelevant if developers also release their games for download, but not if they choose solely to sell their games.
#131013 - DragonMinded - Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:49 am
Homebrew isn't the act of giving something away free. Homebrew is something written by a hobbyist, not a company. I don't see what the problem of someone wanting to get compensation for their time is, and it certainly wouldn't make it any less homebrew.
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#131015 - Rajveer - Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:30 am
| DragonMinded wrote: |
| Homebrew is something written by a hobbyist |
| DragonMinded wrote: |
| I don't see what the problem of someone wanting to get compensation for their time is |
But there's the contradiction, somebody developing a program as a hobby certainly wouldn't need compensation for their time, as they would be primarily doing it for their own gratification in their own time no? I don't know, I always thought of a homebrew community as a community of developers and players who make games because they want to, helping each other through the process and supporting developers by using their games and applications, but for free. I always thought that homebrew developers wanted to create a game or application for others to use for free to support the community, I thought that was the "special" aspect of the homebrew community, that everything was free and that people did it because they wanted to let the scene grow and to provide more software for people.
I do however definately see the view that full-time homebrew developers need compensation for their time, especially people like yourself who have contributed countless time to the scene with applications such as DSOrganise. I just never thought of the money-aspect of the scene before and how it affects full-time developers, interesting I guess :)
#131017 - Lazy1 - Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:06 am
The best solution for developers is to add a donation link to their site, if they make something the public likes then they will be paid to support it.
I owe my Supercard CF to the homebrew community and soon those who donated will get their money's worth (Ram extension used in emulator).
#131018 - DragonMinded - Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:50 am
| Rajveer wrote: |
| DragonMinded wrote: | | Homebrew is something written by a hobbyist |
| DragonMinded wrote: | | I don't see what the problem of someone wanting to get compensation for their time is |
But there's the contradiction, somebody developing a program as a hobby certainly wouldn't need compensation for their time |
I said nothing about any need. Hobbyists make money at their hobbies all the time. What about people that make furniture for a hobby. They don't just give away their creations, even though it was fun. What about people that paint for a hobby? They sell their work. If you look at most hobbies, it's the norm to make money at it while still enjoying it. What's so special about homebrew that states you can't have fun developing with it but still earn extra cash?
| Lazy1 wrote: |
The best solution for developers is to add a donation link to their site, if they make something the public likes then they will be paid to support it.
I owe my Supercard CF to the homebrew community and soon those who donated will get their money's worth (Ram extension used in emulator). |
This is flat out not true. Unless you beg for donations you don't get them. I don't want anyone to take this as a lame attempt to lash out at anyone or beg for anything. I am just letting you know that people will generally demand support for free. Just to give you an idea, I've recieved five donations to date for DSOrganize. I also haven't recieved any hardware donations. Yet, whenever a new card or card revision comes out, I'm assaulted with requests to make it work. Same goes for the new DSLite wifi, etc. The only donation offers I get are rediculous ones like "If you make DSO display pictures in web browser I'll give you $20!!!"
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#131050 - Lynx - Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:08 pm
| Quote: |
| damn it Lynx! You ruined his dream! |
I've looked into this MANY times.. and tried MANY routes.. Unless you do it yourself, the only one that can make a profit is the manufacturer
| Quote: |
| Would one be selling their game on carts so people without homebrew capability would be able to play the game? If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to get them to buy a flashcart so they can support more homebrew games? |
Profit or no profit, it's easier to provide a game card with your homebrew on it for $15 (if that's possible with you making a little profit) than to suggest someone purchase a $40 + $10 media card. Plus, if you wanted to send out copies to friends/family as well as present your homebrew to publishers. But, you don't want to go broke sending them out at $50 each for media adapters.
| Quote: |
| Just to give you an idea, I've recieved five donations to date for DSOrganize. I also haven't recieved any hardware donations. |
I'm sorry to hear that. It supprises me (I guess it shouldn't) how many people were "pissed" when you gave up because of all the hardware support you were expected to do.. and then find out that only 5 people have donated.. just nuts. I personally don't use DSO as much as I would like, but we do refer to your WiFi code from time to time. I think DSO is one of the only WiFi enabled homebrew that seems to work with every AP you throw at it.
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#131057 - Lazy1 - Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:59 pm
DragonMinded, I see what you mean then.
Though it would be nice for flashcart companies to give out free hardware to developers especially since they really "support homebrew".
#131080 - DragonMinded - Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:25 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Quote: | | Just to give you an idea, I've recieved five donations to date for DSOrganize. I also haven't recieved any hardware donations. |
I'm sorry to hear that. It supprises me (I guess it shouldn't) how many people were "pissed" when you gave up because of all the hardware support you were expected to do.. and then find out that only 5 people have donated.. just nuts. I personally don't use DSO as much as I would like, but we do refer to your WiFi code from time to time. I think DSO is one of the only WiFi enabled homebrew that seems to work with every AP you throw at it. |
At the time I had quit, I had recieved two. ;P
| Lazy1 wrote: |
DragonMinded, I see what you mean then.
Though it would be nice for flashcart companies to give out free hardware to developers especially since they really "support homebrew". |
The support they give is pitiful. What they really mean is "We give homebrewers the option to support our card." It's pretty disgusting, and the reason why I officially do not support any product by M3.
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#131082 - tepples - Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:31 pm
| Rajveer wrote: |
| Also, wouldn't it be less convenient if homebrew games were distributed on carts? At the moment I like the idea of having loads of homebrew games on my Supercard SD without having to carry loads of cartridges. Of course, this post if completely irrelevant if developers also release their games for download, but not if they choose solely to sell their games. |
Unless people release the game engine and level 1 for download but only sell the rest on carts.
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#131142 - GizmoTheGreen - Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:42 pm
glad to wsee all the replies, i had fun reding them :)
guess will just have to wait and see ^^
and yes, the main reason i want this is mainly becouse you can give away/sell cheap your homebrew to users without a flashcarts that would cost even more, as a hobbyist, having your homebrew on a "real" cart, and not a flash cart wiht menu in between, seing your own icon in the ds "os" would be incredble!
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#131154 - silent_code - Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:55 pm
| Rajveer wrote: |
| But there's the contradiction, somebody developing a program as a hobby certainly wouldn't need compensation for their time, as they would be primarily doing it for their own gratification in their own time no? (...) |
aren't you mixing it up with the "open source community"? most hb is free, but remember that in the old days, companies used to start off of their hb, making it "shareware". that still happens today.
#131170 - tondopie - Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:55 pm
yeah most PC shareware is really technically homebrew...
#131179 - HyperHacker - Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:34 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Rajveer wrote: | | Also, wouldn't it be less convenient if homebrew games were distributed on carts? At the moment I like the idea of having loads of homebrew games on my Supercard SD without having to carry loads of cartridges. Of course, this post if completely irrelevant if developers also release their games for download, but not if they choose solely to sell their games. |
Unless people release the game engine and level 1 for download but only sell the rest on carts. |
Then you still need to have the cart to play the full game.
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#131192 - tepples - Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:51 am
| Rajveer wrote: |
| At the moment I like the idea of having loads of homebrew games on my Supercard SD without having to carry loads of cartridges. |
SimonB is the administrator, and SimonB does not necessarily care about your plight.
| In the rules, SimonB wrote: |
| We do not care if you own the games and just want to keep them on a single cart. It's not what this forum is about. |
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | Unless people release the game engine and level 1 for download but only sell the rest on carts. |
Then you still need to have the cart to play the full game. |
Why is this a bad thing? How much does a Game Card wallet cost at any digital photography store?
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#131204 - Rajveer - Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:13 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| aren't you mixing it up with the "open source community"? |
Probably :)
| tepples wrote: |
| SimonB is the administrator, and SimonB does not necessarily care about your plight. |
That's fine if SimonB doesn't care about my suggestion. I believe that quote was in reference to not tolerating a user asking how to "get X game running on your gba flash setup", I certainly hope I didn't imply that's what I was talking about. I was discussing the convenience of having all homebrew games on the same flashcart as opposed to using produced homebrew carts, I wasn't asking anyone how to do this or that.
| tepples wrote: |
| Why is this a bad thing? How much does a Game Card wallet cost at any digital photography store? |
It's more about convenience rather than the price of a game card wallet, of having all your homebrew games in the Nintendo DS so you don't need anything else to carry around, or keep switching cartridges when playing different homebrew games and applications. But I guess if a developer wants to sell their software and chooses to sell it via downloading, then he's only opening himself up to piracy easier.
#131261 - HyperHacker - Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:29 am
| tepples wrote: |
| HyperHacker wrote: | | tepples wrote: | | Unless people release the game engine and level 1 for download but only sell the rest on carts. |
Then you still need to have the cart to play the full game. |
Why is this a bad thing? How much does a Game Card wallet cost at any digital photography store? |
My pockets have no room for any more game cards. And as Rajveer pointed out, one of the nice features about homebrew is being able to have multiple games on a card without a parrot on your shoulder.
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#131268 - MrD - Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:23 am
| GizmoTheGreen wrote: |
hmm, wouldnt it be possible to make carts, like originals, availeble, so homebrewers can buy, and, from some serial solder points or something, program with theyre game, test, and then they assemble it, slap a sticker on there, and voila, a rwal gamecart with theyre game, so theyre icon shows on the ds, with their textm and not the r4ds first, and then you have to boot it from there, anyone gets what im suggesting?
like a "assemble your own HB carts for selling/giving away"
should be cheap, be able to choose from availeble cart sizes and eeprom save sizes, and of course, buy in surplus, 200 pcs at a time
of course, someone with alot of money will have to take this project on, im just bringing the idea ^^ |
Stop farting about and worrying on a forum and just do it is my advice.
Speaking of which... ;)
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#131304 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:17 am
Since some of the people posting in this topic don't seem to know about them, here's links to two other related topics.
http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=13137
http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=13172
While I don't think that the cards from NeoFlash discussed in the second link are ideal, I do think that low capacity flash cards from some commercial manufacturer are ultimately a more likely proposition than homemade write-once cards.
I was hoping that the small 128MB N-Card would pan out, but it looks like those are no longer being made.
Anyway, it's only a matter of time in my opinion before some good solution becomes available. I'm actually working on a game that I plan to sell on flashed cards whenever they do become available. It's a very long-term project, but hopefully by the 2008 holidays the game will be done and a card to write it to will be available.
I don't plan to sell the game for a profit (though it's still early in development...maybe I'll change my mind after working on it for a year and a half). In my opinion, that's not the real point of selling homebrew games in this way. I just think it would be cool. I can certainly understand the attraction Rajveer mentions of having all your games on one cart, but in my opinion, at the same time there's also an attraction to having a single game on its own media complete with a case and manual. I've been buying my games that way for too long not to feel an attachment to it, so it only feels natural for me that a homebrew game that I work very hard on should have the same treatment.
It's also a fact that selling homebrews this way would expand the market for our games greatly. Yes, you could try to convince everybody to buy a flash kit and play your game that way, but that sort of thing only works to a limited extent. Having your game for sale on a card that anyone with a DS could just buy and play right away without any other variables is much more effective. Also, it seems to me that a homebrew game sold in this way would get more attention. Homebrew games are often treated as throw-aways. Even very good games sort of seem to get lost in the shuffle and don't get the attention they deserve from people who can play them. It seems like more people would actually *PLAY* your game if it was on a card just like other commercial DS games than would if they were downloading it like all the other homebrew out there.
...word is bondage...
#131316 - Lynx - Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:16 am
I know about those topics. If you don't plan to make a profit, that is great. If you do, they aren't. Once you add the cost of the card+shipping, and then try to make a few bucks, good luck selling your homebrew. You have to keep in mind that full commercial games can be purchased for $20. You have to give the buyer a reason to pick your $25 homebrew game over a $20 commercial game.
The components that make up these cards don't cost more then $8 (just a guess from past experience in small quantities), but add development, manufacturing, distribution and you end up at $15-$20.. Flash your game to it and your in the $25 range just to make $5 profit. That is, if you can sell it.
So, the real topic here is homebrew. What would it take to create a homebrew flash card? Really? Not much, if you have the encryption needed to talk to the DS. I believe that is the only thing stopping it.
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#131331 - sourcerer - Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:28 pm
Of course, if multiple titles could be stuffed on one card you could have a reason for people to pay more - more games.
Kaj
#131333 - tepples - Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:55 pm
| sourcerer wrote: |
| Of course, if multiple titles could be stuffed on one card you could have a reason for people to pay more - more games. |
The "2-in-1" re-releases of GBA games based on movies didn't cost significantly more than the originals did. Neither did WarioWare (213 games for $30).
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#131334 - sourcerer - Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:58 pm
Guess that's a valid point. Multiple titles on a cartridge instantly labels them budget.
K :o\
#131356 - Lynx - Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:12 pm
Well, and they would all have to be your own titles. If you went with a bunch of authors, then you would have to split the profits with all of the authors.. now your making even less.. if you can sell it.
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#131359 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:31 pm
Here's an idea...how about just writing a good game? *GASP*
There's absolutely nothing preventing homebrew games of the same quality and scale seen in even the best commerical releases. It's just a matter of whether the homebrew coders in the scene have a desire to actually create a game as opposed to just a gameplay engine. That would require spending most of your time on stuff other than pure programming, like level design and scenario plotting. Some of the people working on games are also pretty good graphics artists, but for me, art is also a limiting factor, but I'm hoping I'll be able to find a good artist or two once I have my game's main gameplay engines in a good working state, so that there's something to show.
...word is bondage...
#131418 - sourcerer - Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:53 am
Even if you make a real good game, it's still homebrew and you still have no proper way to get it out there on a cart, so the problem remains the same, no?
K
#131444 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:27 pm
Well, like I said, I'm convinced that it's only a matter of time before a good solution does become available, so I'm just going on that assumption. Since the development of my own game is so long term, I'm not really too concerned right now. If nothing becomes available, I'll just release the full game for download like any other homebrew. That would be fine, too, but I'd prefer to write it to cards and sell them.
For games that don't take up much space, the cards from NeoFlash look like they'll be a good option in the meantime, assuming the issues KiethE mentioned are worked out. A bit expensive, in my opinion, given their size, but not too expensive to make them unusable.
...word is bondage...
#131724 - Lynx - Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:07 pm
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
Here's an idea...how about just writing a good game? *GASP*
There's absolutely nothing preventing homebrew games of the same quality and scale seen in even the best commerical releases. |
Quality, maybe.. scale? Hmm.. Homebrew games normaly consist of one programmer.. and with the "bigger" projects you have three or four people working together..
What is the average number of people involved with a commercial game? What is the average time frame for it to make it to market?
If a single developer was going to make a commercial grade product by themselves, when they did finally get it done, and available for sale.. we'll all be playing on a different handheld by then. ;)
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#131756 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:55 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| If a single developer was going to make a commercial grade product by themselves, when they did finally get it done, and available for sale.. we'll all be playing on a different handheld by then. ;) |
Well, that's not a very big concern for me. Three commercial homebrew games will be released this year for the Dreamcast and the Dreamcast has been a "dead' console for five years. Charles Doty just released Frog Bog for the SNES last month. New homebrews are released quite often even for the Colecovision and Atari 2600. In my opinion, the DS is an all-time classic system just like those and people will be playing it for generations to come. I know I will.
Of course, I would prefer to release my game while the DS is still a current console since more people will play it that way. And I think I will assuming the DS is still a current console in 2009. I think you're underestimating what can be done if a developer uses available resources more creatively. Commercial game development is a very wasteful and inefficient process. Of course, I may be over-estimating what I can do, but only time will tell, right? I'd rather assume that I can do it and be wrong than assume I can't and not even try.
...word is bondage...
#131778 - tepples - Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:36 am
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| Charles Doty just released Frog Bog for the SNES last month. |
How does he get around the Super NES lockout chip? Unlike the NES and the DS, the Super NES crypto isn't reversed. Or is it a Lock-On game that passes the crypto through to an authentic Game Pak the way Game Genie and Super Noah's Ark do?
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#131789 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:55 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: | | Charles Doty just released Frog Bog for the SNES last month. |
How does he get around the Super NES lockout chip? Unlike the NES and the DS, the Super NES crypto isn't reversed. Or is it a Lock-On game that passes the crypto through to an authentic Game Pak the way Game Genie and Super Noah's Ark do? |
I'm not really certain, but would assume that the carts he's selling are cannibalized commercial carts anyway, so they would probably still have the original lockout chip on them (assuming the lockout chip is a discrete piece of hardware like that).
...word is bondage...
#131797 - Lynx - Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:29 am
And people are buying these games? Somehow I can't see him making enough profit to be worth his time, if creating the game for sale was the sole purpose.
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#131844 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:34 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| And people are buying these games? |
Yes.
| Quote: |
| Somehow I can't see him making enough profit to be worth his time, if creating the game for sale was the sole purpose. |
Who said profit was the motive? If we were only concerned with making money, none of us would be here doing this stuff at all, would we? There would be no homebrew scene. Instead we'd all be hanging out on investment forums or something trying to screw each other over for a penny.
...word is bondage...
#131845 - silent_code - Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:51 pm
to everybody: please remember to not start any flaming, because it's very likely you won't convince anyone. there are different points of view, each with it's own pros and cons. mine is: i don't see the point of discussing this any further. either someone will do it, or there won't be such cardridges.
and why is this in the ds development forum, not in the offtopic/hardware/whatever forum, anyway?
thanks for reading.