#124315 - Lynx - Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:10 am
I saw it mentioned in the gnirleo (or whatever the stupid name is) and posted on drunkencoders.com. Could someone explain this to me? If it has to connect to a PC running a service, does it even count as a real browser? What makes it any better than using one of the remote desktop applications and browsing the web from your PC?
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#124333 - josath - Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:57 am
gniflieo is the fake one, right?
i guess dsHobro will be only slightly better than using one of the remote desktop apps, since it's designed specifically for browsing, and can be optimized for that task (for example, someone can be using your computer while you are using the ds 'browser')
#124334 - tepples - Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:00 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| If it has to connect to a PC running a service, does it even count as a real browser? |
Opera Mini uses a reformatting proxy in much the same way. (Nintendo DS Browser and Internet Channel do not.)
| Quote: |
| What makes it any better than using one of the remote desktop applications and browsing the web from your PC? |
Can remote desktop be used with multiple players? Say I have one PC in the house, three flashed DS systems, one GBAMP, two SuperCards, and one wireless router. Can we all get on the web at once?
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#124344 - beamer30 - Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:18 am
A problem with that is theres only one mouse pointer. If you had the remote app make another on then you could just open a smaller browser and someone else could open a smaller browser then walla you're both using the same cpu at the same time.
#124382 - Lynx - Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:54 pm
Or you could just run VMWare images for each DS, and have each DS connect to the individual VMWare "machines".. :)
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#124385 - tepples - Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:17 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Or you could just run VMWare images for each DS, and have each DS connect to the individual VMWare "machines".. :) |
Until you get into the problem that you can't activate Windows Vista Home Basic or Windows Vista Home Premium within VMWare. You need Ultimate, or you need an earlier version of Windows that Microsoft has stopped selling. You also need a poopload of RAM and hard drive space in the host machine.
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#124390 - chuckstudios - Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:32 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| a poopload of RAM |
I died laughing. Luckily, I hit the fire button to respawn.
#124392 - Lynx - Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:49 pm
Heh.. I bolded your main problems:
| Quote: |
| Until you get into the problem that you can't activate Windows Vista Home Basic or Windows Vista Home Premium within VMWare. You need Ultimate, or you need an earlier version of Windows that Microsoft has stopped selling. You also need a poopload of RAM and hard drive space in the host machine. |
We are talking about just browsing the web, right?
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#124394 - Joe_Sextus - Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:10 pm
This whole thing can be done in Linux with vnc and xinetd. I have my home desktop setup similarly to this (I wrap vnc into rdp so Windows machines can access it too).
#124404 - tepples - Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:11 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
Heh.. I bolded your main problems:
| Quote: | | Until you get into the problem that you can't activate Windows Vista Home Basic or Windows Vista Home Premium within VMWare. You need Ultimate, or you need an earlier version of Windows that Microsoft has stopped selling. You also need a poopload of RAM and hard drive space in the host machine. |
We are talking about just browsing the web, right? |
But can one buy a name-brand PC with anything but a Microsoft or Apple operating system?
| Joe_Sextus wrote: |
| This whole thing can be done in Linux with vnc and xinetd. |
If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux.
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#124406 - Joe_Sextus - Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:29 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Joe_Sextus wrote: | | This whole thing can be done in Linux with vnc and xinetd. |
If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux. |
Most hardware is supported under Linux, the only major exceptions I've some are wireless network cards. But if ran through VMWare on a Windows box that wouldn't even be an issue.
#124409 - beamer30 - Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:37 pm
| chuckstudios wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | a poopload of RAM |
I died laughing. Luckily, I hit the fire button to respawn. |
lol how much do you play metriod prime hunters?
and yes you do need alot of ram, but isn't possiable to shorten the amount of ram needed, by making the program less user freindly like taking out the nice interface and switching it with "poopy" one?(though i guess you'd have to have the programs source files huh)
#124420 - Lynx - Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:31 pm
That was my point, you take your Windows machine, and load VMWare Player so you can run 3 instances of a stripped down Linux that has X and a GUI web browser. You can then set the resolution to as low as possible.. Ya'know what.. How about I just do it and show you what I mean.. :/
Off to find a stripped down Linux VMWare image.. I like vector linux for this type of thing.. so hopefully I can find one.
And as Joe_Sextus, hardware doesn't matter.
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#124424 - Dood77 - Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:51 pm
| beamer30 wrote: |
| lol how much do you play metriod prime hunters? |
Erm... I believe every FPS since Wolfenstien 3D used fire to respawn after death... (or did wolf/doom use the spacebar... well then it must be quake...)
| tepples wrote: |
| If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux. |
Whats this?? A Linux skeptic?!
#124428 - Lynx - Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:12 pm
Actually, I don't know what I was thinking.. You only need to run one instance of Linux, as it can support multiple desktops.. I'm in the middle of setting it up right now.. When I'm done, I'll post pics/video/tutorial if I have time.
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#124443 - tepples - Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:06 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux. |
Whats this?? A Linux skeptic?! |
I own hardware that was unsupported by Linux last time I checked. Around the time of Mandrake 9.1 (now Mandriva), I tried to install Linux. When it was time to choose and test a video driver, the "radeon" driver failed to start on my ATI Radeon 9000 video card. In addition, my Canon S520 inkjet printer printed the test page at 60% size because the 600 DPI printer was misdetected as a 360 DPI of the same family, and my flatbed scanner wasn't detected at all due to being listed as unsupported in SANE. In fact, Microtek ScanMaker models 3800 through 9800 are still mostly unsupported.
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#124452 - Lynx - Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:13 am
Well, I'm a huge Linux supporter, but still mostly on the server side. I don't use it much as a desktop because of the things Tepples has mentioned. But, even the desktop platform has it's uses, and where it is used, it does the job great. examples being kiosks, POS terminals, etc.
Anyway, to get us kinda back on topic here is the quick pics/video I talked about..
All the same pic in different resolutions, basically my WinXP box with the VMware image running and you can see the 3 instances of VNC server running.
nds3vnc400x300
nds3vnc800x600
nds3vnc1024x768
Each DSs screen:
nds1vnc
nds2vnc
nds3vnc
Really crappy video:
nds3vnc.wmv
Here is what you need (assuming you have a few DSs and a Windows computer):
FREE = VMWare Player
FREE = FC6 VMWare image (or your favorite Linux with X)
1 - Install VMWare Player
2 - Unpack VMWare image (in this case, it was 2 Gig unpacked, but like I said before, you can get smaller images. I just didn't want to waste time looking for one)
3 - Run VMWare image, answer questions, and log in as root (going to use 10.10.10.100 as the IP in this example)
4 - Create 3 user accounts, nds1, nds2, nds3
5 - su to each user account and start vncserver, set password, and kill server.
6 - Edit .vnc/xstartup script and remove stuff you don't want, add firefox and have it default to your favorite site.
7 - start vncserver again.
8 - Do this for the other two accounts..
9 - Start nds1 and launch dsvnc.nds, connect to 10.10.10.100:1
10 - Start nds2 and launch dsvnc.nds, connect to 10.10.10.100:2
11 - Start nds3 and launch dsvnc.nds, connect to 10.10.10.100:3
There you go.. have fun pretending to browse the web..
Now, is it really useable? Nope.. but you can do it.
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#124456 - tepples - Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:41 am
| Lynx wrote: |
Here is what you need (assuming you have a few DSs and a Windows computer):
FREE = VMWare Player
FREE = FC6 VMWare image (or your favorite Linux with X) |
NOT FREE = tons of RAM
NOT FREE = new PC whose motherboard can support tons of RAM
NOT FREE = laptop PC for use in a hotel, airport, or coffee shop, if your current PC is a desktop model
Therefore, it is useful to figure out either how to do the web browsing entirely on the device (like Nintendo DS Browser) or how to make a more efficient proxy (like Opera Mini).
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#124465 - Lynx - Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:51 am
Huh? Have you even tried VMWare? Because it sure doesn't sound like it. In the example I just gave, my computer was using 366MB of RAM. That includes WinXP (and the standard crap that starts up like printer utils, etc) and the running FC6 VMWare image. Is that TONS of RAM? Because the engineering workstations (3D modeling) we have at work have 4 or 8 GB of RAM, depending on the PC model.. I would say THAT is tons of RAM!
I have a Linux server with only 376MB (1 x 256 and 1 x 128 - 8MB for Video) RAM in it running as a Samba file server, SSH proxy, BigSister server, and a VMWare server running a single VMWare image of Asterisk that has 3 VoIP trunks going into it.. and it runs fine. Does it have a lot of free RAM? No, only about 2 meg.. but it doesn't go into swapping fits either, so it is just right.
So, although you can run up to 4 VMWare images on a single processor, it doesn't mean you need tons of RAM to be able to run just one.
Besides, if you are going to proxy through a PC, you have to own a PC/Laptop to be able to do that anyway.
Bottom line, if you aren't browsing the web on the DS from the DS, it's not a real DS web browser.
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#124850 - tondopie - Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:48 am
| chuckstudios wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | a poopload of RAM |
I died laughing. Luckily, I hit the fire button to respawn. |
heh heh, playing Halo are we?
#124946 - OOPMan - Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:05 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Dood77 wrote: | | tepples wrote: | | If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux. |
Whats this?? A Linux skeptic?! |
I own hardware that was unsupported by Linux last time I checked. Around the time of Mandrake 9.1 (now Mandriva), I tried to install Linux. When it was time to choose and test a video driver, the "radeon" driver failed to start on my ATI Radeon 9000 video card. In addition, my Canon S520 inkjet printer printed the test page at 60% size because the 600 DPI printer was misdetected as a 360 DPI of the same family, and my flatbed scanner wasn't detected at all due to being listed as unsupported in SANE. In fact, Microtek ScanMaker models 3800 through 9800 are still mostly unsupported. |
Tepples, Manrake 9.1 is just a teensy weensy little bit old and decrepit now. Can you say Kernel 2.4?
If you're going to judge Linux, you'd do better by installing a more modern distro, something like Mandriva 2007 or OpenSuse 10.2, as the HW support in them is a lot better...
Well, blah, been using Linux since Redhat 3.03, so I'm old-ish school ;-)
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#125165 - Dan2552 - Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:34 pm
the method of using VMware could also be accessed through his internet IP with port forwarding, so actually you wouldn't need to bring a laptop with you.
#125210 - tepples - Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:52 am
| Dan2552 wrote: |
| the method of using VMware could also be accessed through his internet IP with port forwarding, so actually you wouldn't need to bring a laptop with you. |
Unless you need a web browser running locally to access the hotspot's authentication (and possibly payment) interface before you can even get a packet to the PC at home.
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#125285 - Lynx - Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:38 pm
Hence, screw all the proxies and remote apps and BRING ON THE REAL WEB BROWSER! :)
Oh wait.. you could probably just use DSO to pay but still..
BRING ON THE REAL WEB BROWSER ALREADY! :)
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#125403 - HyperHacker - Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:13 am
DSO's browser, being alpha, doesn't support forms or authentication. Good luck using an authorization page without those.
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#125540 - Drood - Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:21 am
I think this browser is brilliant idea. Yes, when you're out and about it's usage is limited, but if you're just kicking around the house, and want to browse from bed etc... It's an awesome idea.
#125664 - sonny_jim - Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:19 pm
Just to let you know that GPF has now submitted his patches for graphical Links. I'm going have a play and see if it works. It should be in the kineox builds in a few days.
EDIT:
And here it is, apologies for the lame host, DSLinux build with gpm and links graphic enabled:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/628b02
it's very ropey but at least it's not fake! Start with:
links -g -dither-images 1 -display-optimize 1 -html-image-scale 90 -menu-font-size 8 -aspect-on 1 -dither-letters 1 -html-user-font-size 8
YMMV
#125800 - Drood - Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:46 am
In the time it'd take to type that in, the internet will be obsolete:D
Really wish DSLinux worked with my router.:(
#125804 - dantheman - Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:22 am
Awesome, thank you for the download link. I've got a few screenshots here if anyone's interested:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/danthemanms/SD530703.jpg - Zelda Fan Game Central, a forum I go to
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/danthemanms/SD530704.jpg - GBAdev forums
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/danthemanms/SD530705.jpg - Wikipedia front page
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/danthemanms/SD530706.jpg - Slashdot, scrolled down a bit.
EDIT: I've also condensed that long launch command into a simple script file to make it quicker to launch. Place it in your /linux/usr/bin folder and launch it like a program. http://danthemanms.googlepages.com/GLINKS
#125808 - Dood77 - Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:55 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Dood77 wrote: | | tepples wrote: | | If your computer's hardware is supported by Linux. |
Whats this?? A Linux skeptic?! |
I own hardware that was unsupported by Linux last time I checked. Around the time of Mandrake 9.1 (now Mandriva), I tried to install Linux. When it was time to choose and test a video driver, the "radeon" driver failed to start on my ATI Radeon 9000 video card. In addition, my Canon S520 inkjet printer printed the test page at 60% size because the 600 DPI printer was misdetected as a 360 DPI of the same family, and my flatbed scanner wasn't detected at all due to being listed as unsupported in SANE. In fact, Microtek ScanMaker models 3800 through 9800 are still mostly unsupported. |
Yeah, I had a fair bit of issues to work out myself... resolution stuck at 640x480, 2 buttons on my 5 button mouse, same problem with my cannon, and more recently I couldn't log in due to my HD being full ^^
But all these problems taught me to use the terminal and learn the inner workings of the Kubuntu flavor :)
| tondopie wrote: |
| heh heh, playing Halo are we? |
>.< To quote myself tondopie:
| Dood77 wrote: |
| beamer30 wrote: | | lol how much do you play metriod prime hunters? |
Erm... I believe every FPS since Wolfenstien 3D used fire to respawn after death... (or did wolf/doom use the spacebar? Well then it must be quake...) |
Plus, unless I'm missing something, you don't use fire to respawn in halo. (can't specifically remember single player, but multiplayer had a time limit...)
#125812 - Mr. Picklesworth - Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:03 am
Well, GPF has finally put in his patch for links -g and gpm in dslinux, thus giving us the first graphical homebrew browser that does not need a proxy. (And, since apparently Opera DS uses a proxy, I guess the first graphical browser on the DS that doesn't use one).
It isn't 100% pretty right now, but it does indeed work :)
Edit:
Darn, already posted!
Hm, I swear that build works better than mine! Are you getting any weird glitches while scrolling, or invisible text around the Go to URL box? (Any weird glitches surrounding such things?).
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Last edited by Mr. Picklesworth on Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
#125816 - OOPMan - Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:03 am
For the last damn time, Opera DS DOES NOT USE A PROXY.
I own the bloody thing and it is NOT LIKE Opera Mini.
Opera Mini uses a custom proxy to pre-process browsed pages and shrink-wrap them for the browser.
Opera DS does not. What Opera DS DOES allow is the use of a standard HTTP proxy, the kind usually used for caching and security purposes. This kind of proxy does NOT, however, shrink-wrap web-pages and is purely optional. If Opera DS did use a custom proxy, then it would probably be a far far better browser than it is.
Sorry if I seem a little irate, but I get rather peeved when I see the same old stale, bollocks info being bandied about when the facts are very easy to dig up and have been known for a while.
*sigh*
Vent off...
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#126280 - Drood - Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:11 pm
So the slow processing of pages then (a review on YouTube says 3 minutes to display CNN) is actually the browser, not some mythical proxy?
So you could set up your own proxy and use that then?
#126299 - 3D_geek - Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:48 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| Actually, I don't know what I was thinking.. You only need to run one instance of Linux, as it can support multiple desktops.. I'm in the middle of setting it up right now.. When I'm done, I'll post pics/video/tutorial if I have time. |
Not just multiple desktops - multiple X servers and multiple logins. If you are grabbing the video and shoving it out to a DS via wireless then you don't even need a graphics card - you could service half a dozen DS's from a modern PC.
But the 'clean' way to do this would be to implement a thin X on the DS and feed it from the PC so that rendering happens locally on the DS - for everything other than full screen video that would be much faster than sending images over S-L-O-W WiFi connections. Then you can run any software on the PC and have the DS display it locally.
#126322 - Mr. Picklesworth - Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:21 am
Are you thinking what I was thinking? SSH -X on the DS would be great :)
For anyone who doesn't know, SSH -X completely kicks Remote Desktop's ass in every way.
With it, for example, you can have one copy of a computer program (eg., Photoshop) installed on a big / powerful server computer. Then hook up a bunch of cheap / simple client computers and have them run that same copy of Photoshop simultaneously via the server. (The server is doing all the work; the clients just render what they need to render). It saves money and it's fast.
Even just for regular remote desktop stuff, the quality difference between SSH -X and something like VNC is stunning. The computer does not take a picture of its output every frame; it just pipes over all its X stuff. You don't need to redraw constantly, and no crazy compression is done. Stellar quality even with less transferred over the network.
Err, sorry, that was off topic.
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Last edited by Mr. Picklesworth on Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:45 pm; edited 4 times in total
#126361 - Lynx - Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Yup, just have your server output everything to your x session.. That would be pretty cool. We could put together a DS "Designed" X server that would work better for our tiny resolution.
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#126450 - OOPMan - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:29 am
| Drood wrote: |
So the slow processing of pages then (a review on YouTube says 3 minutes to display CNN) is actually the browser, not some mythical proxy?
So you could set up your own proxy and use that then? |
Theoretically, yes, assuming you have the know-how to write a proxy server that will shrink-wrap standard HTML pages in some fashion while still producing pure HTML output.
As is, the easiest way to make Opera DS run faster is to turn of image-loading, as this is what slows it down the most...
A proxy that shrink-wraps web-pages could also work, but would require some careful coding, I'd imagine and would probably need to be tuned for Opera DS's dual-screen mode (Ie, not the zoom-and-navigate mode...)
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#126453 - Genoil - Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:48 am
| OOPMan wrote: |
| Drood wrote: | So the slow processing of pages then (a review on YouTube says 3 minutes to display CNN) is actually the browser, not some mythical proxy?
So you could set up your own proxy and use that then? |
Theoretically, yes, assuming you have the know-how to write a proxy server that will shrink-wrap standard HTML pages in some fashion while still producing pure HTML output.
As is, the easiest way to make Opera DS run faster is to turn of image-loading, as this is what slows it down the most...
A proxy that shrink-wraps web-pages could also work, but would require some careful coding, I'd imagine and would probably need to be tuned for Opera DS's dual-screen mode (Ie, not the zoom-and-navigate mode...) |
Just a guess, but I think Opera DS' SSR mode is your shrink-wrapping proxy that Opera Mini uses, only running locally. Problem is that you still have to download all image data before it gets resized. A proxy that would just resize images would speed up things for sure.
#126459 - OOPMan - Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:23 am
Not quite, Genoil.
It does function similarly, yes, but it doesn't actually seem to shrink any of the images. Rather, it just flows the page in a peculiar way for the most part.
The results are not quite the same as Opera Mini though :-(
It really is a pity Opera DS sucks so much :-(
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#126590 - Drood - Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:58 pm
Seems from what I've read they're ONLY releasing the Lite version in the US market, which absolutely sucks for us Phat owners...
I want DS Opera, and fully plan (or planned rather) to use it with the mobile feed stuff that you can filter through Google etc...
As for image browsing, I'm happy with them off anyway.
Thinking I should just import from the UK while I still can, though I've heard the US version will support Flash. Not sure how true that is, but I'm hoping if it IS true, they'll have a Phat version.
This browsing stuff is so annoying. My main desire is to get a browser that I can use on the DS that can use Ebay. That way when I hit the DVD stores and see the sales etc... I can see if it's worth getting some stuff to Ebay for a profit, or even sell used on Amazon.
Though being able to use YouTube portability would be pretty badass too... If ever any app on the DS can use YouTube, aside from being absolutely stunned, I'd be ecstatic. Tiny little screen would be perfect for YouTube vids. (Though I would guess due to hardware limitations it's probably impossible.)
#126602 - chishm - Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:46 am
They only sell the Lite versions in stores around here. However, you can order the Phat version directly from Nintendo via a toll-free number.
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#126607 - dantheman - Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:07 am
| OOPMan wrote: |
| It does function similarly, yes, but it doesn't actually seem to shrink any of the images. Rather, it just flows the page in a peculiar way for the most part. |
It does shrink larger images though, even in overview mode. Have you tried going to VGcats or another large webcomic? The image is shrunk so much that it's nearly impossible to read the text. A webcomic like Ozy and Millie however is small enough that it doesn't get shrunk.
This could potentially be due to the limited RAM capacity even with the RAM pack. I know it's not a direct equivalent, but viewing the VGcats comic page in Links in graphics mode uses up nearly 20 MB of RAM, but it does keep it full-sized.
At least the Opera browser supports animations, which is nice sometimes (though other times it's annoying).
#126638 - OOPMan - Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:57 am
Okay, thanks for that correction dan.
Truth be told, I haven't used my OperaDS cart for a long time time :-)
It's just so painful to use that I prefer not to...
_________________
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...