#129057 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 4:40 pm
Ok, I'm not sure with the music limiations within games on the NDS.
Can it play Level music? Level music is what's usually on 3D games these days, I see most NDS games are RPG music, which is 2D music, like teh Nintendo classical stuff, but they still play it on 3D games.
#129059 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 5:10 pm
i doubt many people understand your question. try to be more exact. then i'm willing to answer you questions, without any speculation. ;^)
ps: e.g. what do you mean by levelmusic (i can *imagine* what, but knowing is better than thinking)? RPG music??? *2D* music??? since when is music 2D? etc. NOTE: take it easy, i'm not being b1tchy on you. :^)
#129060 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 5:22 pm
Ok, 2D is more of a midi kinda music. Which is called RPG music(any game developer should know this.)
3D it's more releastic type.(Which is called Level music.)
#129061 - Rajveer - Fri May 18, 2007 5:31 pm
I expected the first line of this thread to continue from the title as "N64 games??" ;)
| Mayne wrote: |
| Ok, 2D is more of a midi kinda music. Which is called RPG music |
It is?? By who? (no sarcasm, actually wondering)
So you mean can the Nintendo DS play music files like mp3s, ogg e.t.c? Then no, it can't play it fast enough for implementation in a game. I'm not even sure it can play MIDI music, I know It can play MOD music.
#129062 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Fri May 18, 2007 5:35 pm
Heh, heh. That's hilarious.
But I think we all know what you mean.
What you're calling "level music" is actually just regular PCM audio like WAV or CDDA or sometimes a compressed format similar to MP3 (even actually MP3 in some cases). And yes, the DS can play raw WAV audio. The problem is that using WAV audio tracks takes up a ton of space, which is is also why it didn't become popular in video games until CD-based systems came around. But check out Everlasting Love/Tomorrow Hill, though for a game that uses WAV audio. There's plenty of others too.
What you're calling "2D music" is either programmed chiptunes or tracker files like MOD or possibly MIDI. I don't think any DS homebrew uses the PSG for music, but a lot of them do use MOD format music which are preferable because they're so much smaller than RAW music files. I think there's other advantages to using tracker formats, they're just easier to work with overall. They also often have a very nice sound, though obviously you could have a WAV track that sounded identical. Another reason tracker files are commonly used is that there's a huge pool of already created music files on the Internet, most of which can be freely used in free software like homebrew on the DS.
...word is bondage...
#129063 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 5:35 pm
| Mayne wrote: |
| (any game developer should know this.) |
i don't agree with this.
i never came across these terms... and i'm a programmer/musician/semi-artist... but who cares.
ok, what you may mean is that:
- "2D" / "RPG" music is nothing but midi / noise / mod / frequency generated music. it's synthesized.
- "3D" / "level" music shall be digital or pcm music - basicly wave files. or mp3's or anything like that.
any game developer should know *this*.
well, the good news is, you canhave both. the bad news is, mp3 is a bit tough to get working, but simonjhall (as well as possibly others) did it for quake. so it is possible.
you have quite a few digital mono channels that can play back anything you can record. it just needs to be in a format the hardware can interpret it.
then you can use some of those channels for sound generation (beep and buzz). to be able to use midi/mod sounds, you need a soundbank (afaik), because the hw itself doesn't have one build in. i read nintendo gives one away with their devkits. there are some sound generating homebrew programs on the net, so check them out.
finally: again, your terminology is very uncommon to me, really. it's very much gamer-/aritst-like. more descriptive than technical. this is no offence! i just want to help with communication, that's all. :^)
#129065 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 5:45 pm
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
Heh, heh. That's hilarious.
But I think we all know what you mean.
What you're calling "level music" is actually just regular PCM audio like WAV or CDDA or sometimes a compressed format similar to MP3 (even actually MP3 in some cases). And yes, the DS can play raw WAV audio. The problem is that using WAV audio tracks takes up a ton of space, which is is also why it didn't become popular in video games until CD-based systems came around. But check out Everlasting Love/Tomorrow Hill, though for a game that uses WAV audio. There's plenty of others too.
What you're calling "2D music" is either programmed chiptunes or tracker files like MOD or possibly MIDI. I don't think any DS homebrew uses the PSG for music, but a lot of them do use MOD format music which are preferable because they're so much smaller than RAW music files. I think there's other advantages to using tracker formats, they're just easier to work with overall. They also often have a very nice sound, though obviously you could have a WAV track that sounded identical. Another reason tracker files are commonly used is that there's a huge pool of already created music files on the Internet, most of which can be freely used in free software like homebrew on the DS.
...word is bondage... |
Yes exactly what I mean, I am very bad at explaing things, even when I know what it means, it's hard for me to get the right words out to make sense. That's why I suck at teaching my friends stuff.
#129066 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 5:53 pm
| Mayne wrote: |
| Yes exactly what I mean, I am very bad at explaing things, even when I know what it means, it's hard for me to get the right words out to make sense. That's why I suck at teaching my friends stuff. |
so you kinda take back your "everyone should know that" statement? ;^)
i guess you can just post you questions on the forum, whatever it is you need to know. even if it's a term you need to know. there's always someone there to help you. you know, being a community and all. ;^)
also, i guess you're one younger fella - that gives you kind of an extra bonus! ask whatever you like (without spaming). :^D
#129068 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 6:00 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| Mayne wrote: | | Yes exactly what I mean, I am very bad at explaing things, even when I know what it means, it's hard for me to get the right words out to make sense. That's why I suck at teaching my friends stuff. |
so you kinda take back your "everyone should know that" statement? ;^)
i guess you can just post you questions on the forum, whatever it is you need to know. even if it's a term you need to know. there's always someone there to help you. you know, being a community and all. ;^)
also, i guess you're one younger fella - that gives you kind of an extra bonus! ask whatever you like (without spaming). :^D |
Yea, I'll take that back, a lot of commercial developers I know, use those terms. So I made a bad assumption.
OK, thanks, since I am new to NDS game development and OpenGL I'll have a lot of questions as I go. I am more fluent with DirectX9 and computer games, 2D is more along my lines, but since I want to make an FPS, I'll need to learn 3D. The Tutorial links don't help much, I am hoping to get into a project as a C++ programmer, not sure how much help I can be since I am still learning OpenGL and DS game development. I just want to be able to get the feel. I hope to see an Open source game, so I can analyize and learn by looking at the code.
Also yes, I am 15 years old. I want to do all of this now, because once I am out of high school, I want to go to DigiPen for my bachlor's in computer science then hopfully be able to make my own little buisness in game development, or I can apply to Blizzard Entertainment before I go that far with it or some other game company. Not sure yet, but I do hope I can get into DigiPen, I put my school work before almost anything except for my girl.
I hope to get much help here in this community and hopfully to find an open source DS game(3D would help me more) so I can learn more.
~ Tyler
Last edited by Mayne on Fri May 18, 2007 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
#129069 - Sunray - Fri May 18, 2007 6:13 pm
I'm a commercial developer, but I didn't know those terms though :)
#129070 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 6:14 pm
| Mayne wrote: |
| Also yes, I am 5 years old. |
you're kidding me. ;^) i thought you were at least 15. ;^p
maybe it could help you to check out my shadow volume demo. there's everything you need to get started with coding. though it's hard to understand someone else's code, i admit that. anyway, at least you can modify, run, then modify again and some day you'll know enough to start things from zero.
click the www button under my posts and download the demo sources. beware: it still doesn't support slot1 devices, but runs (with some grapics bugs, i doesn't have on hw) in some emulators (like no$gba and ... some others i can't think of right know). slot1 support will be added "when it's done". (TM) ;^p
good luck!
#129072 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 6:18 pm
| Sunray wrote: |
| I'm a commercial developer, but I didn't know those terms though :) |
<(kindly) joking> here you have it: you're not commercial enough! you've got to try harder! ;^)
ups: sorry for the double post, wasn't intendet!
Last edited by silent_code on Fri May 18, 2007 6:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
#129073 - Dood77 - Fri May 18, 2007 6:19 pm
| Mayne wrote: |
| Also yes, I am 5 years old. I want to do all of this now, because once I am out of high school, I want to go to DigiPen for my bachlor's in computer science then hopfully be able to make my own little buisness in game development, or I can apply to Blizzard Entertainment before I go that far with it or some other game company. Not sure yet, but I do hope I can get into DigiPen, I put my school work before almost anything except for my girl. |
Uuhh... I really home you mean something like 15 years old... I dunno if I could stand the knowledge of another genious child prodigy, one thats got a girlfriend at that...
DigiPen requires impressive grades, and you have to be good at math, or at least be able to learn and remember what was taught to you in math. Also, do you live in the Seattle area? DigiPen offers summer courses for middle school/high school students for C++ and stuff. But on their website it lists alternate campuses for other places in USA.
#129079 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 6:40 pm
Lol, god dammit.. I type too fast Lol. Yes, I am 15 years old. Not 5 Lol. I don't even think I know a 5 year old that knows half the shit I do or even types half as good as I do Lol.
Sorry about that guys.
I know all about DigiPen, I have straight A's this year in 9th grade, I never did before, but now I am in high school and have future goals, I work as hard as I can and study as well.
Yes she is my girl friend, She's turning 14 this June.
I know, I go to collages around here in Philly, Pa I go to C++ courses, I'm al set :).
#129080 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 6:44 pm
that sounds very good!
i wish you good luck! :^)
#129082 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 6:47 pm
| Sunray wrote: |
| I'm a commercial developer, but I didn't know those terms though :) |
Really?? What games you got on retail? If not retail then an online market.. What's your company name? What games have you made? I'd liek to see your portfolio.
#129083 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 6:48 pm
easy, guys - duke it out elsewhere. ;^) like in a quake (nds) deathmatch or whatever.
#129085 - simonjhall - Fri May 18, 2007 6:56 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| well, the good news is, you canhave both. the bad news is, mp3 is a bit tough to get working, but simonjhall (as well as possibly others) did it for quake. so it is possible. |
Port a game and your name gets thrown around - score :-)
If you want to make a first-person shooter, don't look at my code though. I followed Carmack's style by making it a complete mess (aka Extern Global City)
But seriously, regular wav files work like a charm assuming you know how to parse them (I had *zero* sound experience before Quake) and mp3 wasn't too hard either. Having the sound hardware attached to the ARM7 makes it a little more fun, but there are libnds functions on the ARM9 to make it easier for you.
In fact using wave-based sound is probably easier than tone-generated sounds and midi-like stuff as you literally just point the sound chip at your data and tell it to play!
I dunno if it's obvious but the size of sound files can be an issue. If they're too big you'll have to stream them and then you'll have to deal with clicking, ring buffers, and (dur) streaming. And in case you're interested, the sound hardware can't play from slot-2 RAM.
| Sunray wrote: |
| I'm a commercial developer, but I didn't know those terms though :) |
Anyone want to make a poll to find out how many commercial developers there are on this site? I reckon it'd be interesting!
Btw Mayne, I'm also a games programmer for a living and haven't heard those terms...
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#129086 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 6:59 pm
sorry simon, but you're the first that came to my mind. that's sort of a compliment. :^) i'll try to not mention you next time. ;^p
| simonjhall wrote: |
| I'm also a games programmer for a living and haven't heard those terms... |
maybe that's becasue we're getting old and outdated? man, i'm not *that* old. in fact i'm considering myself still young... <shocked> ;^p
#129087 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 7:01 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
sorry simon, but you're the first that came to my mind. that's sort of a compliment. :^) i'll try to not mention you next time. ;^p
| simonjhall wrote: | | I'm also a games programmer for a living and haven't heard those terms... |
maybe that's becasue we're getting old and outdated? man, i'm not *that* old. in fact i'm considering myself quite young... <shocked> ;^p |
How old/young are you? Lol
#129088 - silent_code - Fri May 18, 2007 7:06 pm
nearly ten years older than you. i don't give away personal details on forums, you know (i've already "revealed" my location - for strategical resons). ;^) but i'm a person who doesn't really care about age and the like. i've seen some impressive stuff by 15-year-olds. man, if only *i* had a computer at that age! ... :^\
#129090 - Mayne - Fri May 18, 2007 7:10 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| nearly ten years older than you. i don't give away personal details on forums, you know (i've already given away my location). ;^) but i'm a person who doesn't really care about age and the like. i've seen some impressive stuff by 15-year-olds. man, if only *i* had a computer at that age! ... :^\ |
Yea, look at YouTube, some 14 year old made that, google bought it for $2billion dollars as well. I also know a lot of people who made games that are like 13 years old.
#129140 - tepples - Sat May 19, 2007 4:28 pm
| Rajveer wrote: |
| So you mean can the Nintendo DS play music files like mp3s, ogg e.t.c? |
The Game Boy Advance can play recorded music, and it can do so in a game.
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| Another reason tracker files are commonly used is that there's a huge pool of already created music files on the Internet, most of which can be freely used in free software like homebrew on the DS. |
Where? Which tracker file archive is searchable by license terms? And aren't Creative Commons licenses incompatible with the GPL? Which license do you recommend for distributing a DS homebrew game as free software?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129156 - kusma - Sat May 19, 2007 8:53 pm
| Mayne wrote: |
Yea, look at YouTube, some 14 year old made that, google bought it for $2billion dollars as well. I also know a lot of people who made games that are like 13 years old. |
Uhm, no? YouTube were made by Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, and Jawed Karim - all of them were 25 or older when they developed the site.
#129157 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Sat May 19, 2007 10:00 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: | | Another reason tracker files are commonly used is that there's a huge pool of already created music files on the Internet, most of which can be freely used in free software like homebrew on the DS. |
Where? Which tracker file archive is searchable by license terms? And aren't Creative Commons licenses incompatible with the GPL? Which license do you recommend for distributing a DS homebrew game as free software? |
I don't think any are databases searchable by usage limitations, but a lot of creators left permission in the instrument list.
For any creative work, I personally believe in pure copyleft with absolutely no limitations, which is also what a lot of tracker musicians seem to believe in, too. Especially the older ones. Most who made any statement at all just asked for a credit if their music or samples are used in other creative works.
...word is bondage...
#129171 - tepples - Sun May 20, 2007 1:20 am
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | Which tracker file archive is searchable by license terms? And aren't Creative Commons licenses incompatible with the GPL? Which license do you recommend for distributing a DS homebrew game as free software? |
I don't think any are databases searchable by usage limitations, but a lot of creators left permission in the instrument list. |
Which would require me to download the entire archive and read through . This would result in a lot of disappointment when the following happens twelve times in a row: - I download a song.
- I listen to the song.
- I want to use the song.
- The author's e-mail address no longer works, or the author refuses to let me use the song.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
Last edited by tepples on Mon May 21, 2007 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
#129263 - OOPMan - Mon May 21, 2007 8:14 am
Now now boys, don't ride the Mayne, it's obvious he's linguistically challenged in some fashion or other :-)
I have to say, the whole 2d music vs. 3d music thing made me laugh. What silliness...
_________________
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#129282 - Mayne - Mon May 21, 2007 2:15 pm
| kusma wrote: |
| Mayne wrote: |
Yea, look at YouTube, some 14 year old made that, google bought it for $2billion dollars as well. I also know a lot of people who made games that are like 13 years old. |
Uhm, no? YouTube were made by Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, and Jawed Karim - all of them were 25 or older when they developed the site. |
Close enough Lol.
#129349 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Tue May 22, 2007 2:09 am
| OOPMan wrote: |
| I have to say, the whole 2d music vs. 3d music thing made me laugh. What silliness... |
At least I can understand how he came up with those terms. Redbook audio started being commonly used around the same time as polygons (if you, uh, ignore the Turbo CD, Sega CD and probably a lot of PC games), so I can see how the two could be associated.
I'm really totally baffled and amazed by the "level music" versus "RPG music" thing, though.
...word is bondage...
#129396 - spinal_cord - Tue May 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Here's me thinking 3d music meant something like this (headphones required).
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#129602 - M3d10n - Thu May 24, 2007 2:46 am
Since the DS has only two speakers, what's the point of trying to do 5.1 (that's 3D audio, AFAIK) on it?
I kid, I kid.
I ask: do you even own a DS? There is a bunch DS games with full blown recorded music. Elite Beat Agents and Need for Speed, as example, use actual licensed music, not "RPG music" like you say.
#129603 - tepples - Thu May 24, 2007 2:53 am
| M3d10n wrote: |
| Since the DS has only two speakers, what's the point of trying to do 5.1 (that's 3D audio, AFAIK) on it? |
I don't see the point of 5.1, but some headphones support matrix surround, and some DS games can output matrix surround.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129629 - silent_code - Thu May 24, 2007 1:29 pm
you can already do quite good positioning with two speakers. add a bit of rather simple dsp and there you go. (that's a bit ?ber simplified, i know) ;^)
#129642 - M3d10n - Thu May 24, 2007 4:42 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| M3d10n wrote: | | Since the DS has only two speakers, what's the point of trying to do 5.1 (that's 3D audio, AFAIK) on it? |
I don't see the point of 5.1, but some headphones support matrix surround, and some DS games can output matrix surround. |
You just made me go back and play Kirby again. Nice surround there.
#129650 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 5:44 pm
Wasn't there something called Pro Logic 2 that attempts to do surround on only 2 speakers?
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129658 - efegea - Thu May 24, 2007 8:00 pm
But then, can the DS play OGG or other format of audio (not tracker audio) while in a game?
I am coding a 3D game and want to use "prerrenderized" music instead of tracker music.
This thread has confused me, I thought it was possible.
#129660 - tepples - Thu May 24, 2007 8:06 pm
| efegea wrote: |
| But then, can the DS play OGG or other format of audio (not tracker audio) while in a game? |
Soytainly. If it can be done on a GBA (see Luminesweeper), then it can be done on a DS.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129661 - simonjhall - Thu May 24, 2007 8:12 pm
Sound in 3D games isn't too hard, and works well on the DS. I did it in Quake by attenuating the sound based on the distance and then figuring out the 'position' of the sound using the view of the position of the player vs the position of the sound. Slap this all on the hardware and adjust the panning and volume based on these calculations, and you've got 3D sound!
Although it's more like 'sound on a plane' as if stuff moves vertically you won't notice a difference...
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#129664 - Sunray - Thu May 24, 2007 8:27 pm
#129666 - Darkflame - Thu May 24, 2007 8:32 pm
Question;
How do we tell sound behind us when its the exact same distance as a sound in front of us?
Is it the shape or our ears or something? :-/
Cant just be volume, else that would merely sound like something in front of us at a different distance.
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#129667 - tepples - Thu May 24, 2007 8:43 pm
The shape of the ears distorts the amplitude and phase of various frequency bands.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129677 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 11:10 pm
Was this the inner-Elmer Fudd coming out tepples? (did you know you can change the language on google to Elmer Fudd? :P)
So... I've heard around here that the DS hardware natively decodes APDCM. Is this format very compressed compared to, say, just a .wav PCM?
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129684 - kusma - Fri May 25, 2007 12:20 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
So... I've heard around here that the DS hardware natively decodes APDCM. Is this format very compressed compared to, say, just a .wav PCM? |
ADPCM is 4bits per sample, compared to 16bits per sample for normal ADPCM. This means it gives a 1:4 compression at the loss of some quality.
#129701 - silent_code - Fri May 25, 2007 11:03 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
How do we tell sound behind us when its the exact same distance as a sound in front of us?
|
sounds in front of us "sound different" than behind us. like tepples said, it's "in" the frequencies. the same thing applies to sounds behind obstacles - things sound dampened - and to vertical positioning. that's why i wrote "add a bit of rather simple dsp and there you go." in my previous post - it's about filtering frequencies (in this case - dsp in general coveres quite a wide field of applications, not only audio processing).
#129721 - Dood77 - Fri May 25, 2007 4:46 pm
Thats fascinating! I never thought of it that way... how all you have to do to make it sound in front/behind is change it around a bit. I suppose this is kinda like hearing things better when you're turned toward them, as opposed to turning one ear to the source.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129732 - Mayne - Fri May 25, 2007 6:04 pm
| M3d10n wrote: |
I ask: do you even own a DS? There is a bunch DS games with full blown recorded music. Elite Beat Agents and Need for Speed, as example, use actual licensed music, not "RPG music" like you say. |
Yes I do own a DS.
Imma just stop posting to this post, it's really confusing me..
Bye.
#129737 - silent_code - Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
just in case you check back: what's confusing you?
#129745 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Fri May 25, 2007 11:45 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
| Thats fascinating! I never thought of it that way... how all you have to do to make it sound in front/behind is change it around a bit. I suppose this is kinda like hearing things better when you're turned toward them, as opposed to turning one ear to the source. |
Do you guys ever do the deer ears thing? Cup your hands behind your ears so that they effectively extend the size of your ears. It improves your hearing dramatically, though inly in the direction you're facing. They taught it to us at the summer camp I used to go to. We'd go on hikes and it was so much fun to stand near the top of a mountain with your deer ears and just listen to what you could hear.
I guess it's kind of like when an old man goes, "Ehh?!" and leans toward you with a hand behind one of his ears. Actually, I don't know if old men actually do that. I think I've only seen it in cartoons.
...word is bondage...
#129746 - Dood77 - Fri May 25, 2007 11:52 pm
Yeah, my whole answer to that post is, yeah.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#138722 - Mayne - Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:22 am
I'm back!