#132865 - JeffMan - Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:03 pm
In a Windows C app, I would usually do printf("\b ") to backspace the last-printed character in a console. But when I try this for the DS, it not only backspaces the last-printed character, but it then prints a stupid weird character after it. So if the letter "U" was printed to the console, for instance, and then I printf("\b "), I would end up with " ◘" or something. Are there any other ways to backspace a character besides having to clear the whole screen first and reprint everything?
#132873 - tepples - Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:25 pm
Use '\r' to move the cursor to the start of this line. If that isn't enough, look up ANSI escape sequences on Google or any other search engine, and see if they work on the DS.
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#133214 - phlip - Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:43 am
printf("\r") doesn't work, it does the same as printf("\n")
What you want is, as tepples says, the escape sequences:
printf("\x1B[1D"); - move left one character
printf("\x1B[32D"); - move left to start of line
Have a look at con_write in console.c to see what other escape sequences are supported.
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#133259 - tepples - Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:53 pm
phlip wrote: |
printf("\r") doesn't work |
It does on every other platform I've tried. Either the behavior of the libnds console is a defect, or the lack of documentation of deviation from common practice is a defect.
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#133290 - BigRedPimp - Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:58 am
tepples wrote: |
phlip wrote: | printf("\r") doesn't work |
It does on every other platform I've tried. Either the behavior of the libnds console is a defect, or the lack of documentation of deviation from common practice is a defect. |
Gee, thanks. Next time, why don't you try offering some real help instead of bashing the work of others... again.
For those who actually have something to contribute, however, I haven't had much time to finish my work on that part of the console. If anyone wants to offer some real input as to what should be there, let me know.
#133291 - wintermute - Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:03 am
Is it just me or was this a deliberate setup in order to make snide remarks?
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#133454 - Dood77 - Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:37 am
BigRedPimp wrote: |
For those who actually have something to contribute, however, I haven't had much time to finish my work on that part of the console. If anyone wants to offer some real input as to what should be there, let me know. |
If you don't know what to try, I think you might need your eyes checked or glasses cleaned. If your vision is functioning, and the suggestions from a couple posts up there didn't work you might try saying so, so the people that volunteered to help can be of further assistance. Until then, I'd stop demeaning other people's methods of pointing out what they see as an error.
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#133491 - FireSlash - Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:02 pm
Dood77 wrote: |
If you don't know what to try, I think you might need your eyes checked or glasses cleaned. If your vision is functioning, and the suggestions from a couple posts up there didn't work you might try saying so, so the people that volunteered to help can be of further assistance. Until then, I'd stop demeaning other people's methods of pointing out what they see as an error. |
This isn't helping.
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#133535 - tepples - Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:20 pm
If you're not helping, then maybe I'll try.
In console.c consolePrintChar(), replace this:
Code: |
switch(c) {
case 10:
case 11:
case 12:
case 13:
newRow();
col = 0;
break;
|
with this:
Code: |
switch(c) {
case 12: // form feed clears screen
consoleCls('2');
break;
case 10: // new line
case 11:
newRow();
// which also performs a
case 13: // carriage return
col = 0;
break;
|
and recompile libnds.
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#133560 - BigRedPimp - Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:24 am
tepples wrote: |
If you're not helping, then maybe I'll try. |
Of course, this is assuming people actually want to rebuild libnds. Why not leave it to those who actually work on the lib instead of making people take shortcuts. Just to help everyone out, I'll be fixing the console code this weekend. It should be included in the next revision of libnds.
As for you, know who you're talking to before blasting me, ok? Thanks, much appreciated.
#133571 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:04 am
I wrote the correct process below, but it seems overly complex if you think you can get it done with a control character or a VT sequence (they're not called ANSI sequences, kids.)
Of course, if Tepples knew what he was talking about, he'd know that control character behavior is non-portable.
For example, printf('\r') will give you a weird character on pre-unix MacOS, QNX, all Commodores, PalmOS, Apple ][ and GEOS, which only respond to \n.
What it'll do on a DOS machine, which only responds to \r\n in pairs, varies according to the version of the ANSI driver loaded.
A blank \R will be ignored on all DOS-core versions of Windows, but will be treated differently in NT-core according to which kind of console you're using. If it's the kind of console you get from AllocConsole, you'll get UNIX behavior; if it's a .NET console, you'll just get the special character (as, in fact, will happen with \r\n or \n, too.)
QMail will silently discard email that just uses \r, much to the consternation of people like you, who think that QMail is in error, since the email specification only says line feed, and none of you have any clue about network dependency standards.
On EBCDIC machines, it's NEL, or 0x15. AIX still uses this convention today, as the only major OS which still knows what EBCDIC is. NOS used a nulled 6-bit-char word (24 bits total). VMS and OpenVMS today use segments, and and so line termination is just the end of the database record. OpenVMS can automatically append any character you want as a record terminator.
Unicode has seven different kinds of newline, and in unicode, \r doesn't mean the same thing as \n, neither of which mean the same thing as \r\n.
Most vector machines don't respond to any of \r, \n or \r\n, instead responding *only* to the actual portable things that Tepples thinks he knows but doesn't, such as std::endl (C has no portable line feed.)
Repeat with me: "control characters are platform specific. DevKitPro can do whatever the hell it wants, and it's correct."
Tepples, as usual, is absolutely clueless.
On to another topic: you need to be careful when using VT sequences to implement backspace, because the VT sequence isn't actually backspace, it's cursor left. This becomes important when you have multi-line input and when the cursor is at the left edge; a left cursor movement will go nowhere. Also, please remember that left cursor doesn't actually change anything other than position; you need to move back, then output a space to 'erase' the character that's there, then move back a second time.
The process spelled out:
You'll need to first check if you're at left edge, and if you are, you'll need to check if you're at screen top.
If you're at screen left and top, unless you're implementing console scrolling (which is harder than it should be,) then just do nothing.
If you're at screen left but not at screen top, go up a line and to the right edge, write a space, which will put you back to the beginning of the lower line where you were, and so you go up and to the right edge *again*, and you're good.
If you're not at screen left, just go left, space, left and you're kosher.
Done with process.
By the by, if you're implementing scrolling in a system with VT code support, you're in for a special kind of hell, and I'm walking the other way.
If you need more help, come to irc.blitzed.org #dsdev .
Tepples, read a fucking book already. I've never seen you give good advice. Before you open your hole about line feeds again, at least read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline . It may not be comprehensive, but at least it'll get you some basic functional clue.
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#133572 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:08 am
And I should point out that any attempt to determine "correct" implementations of control characters is doomed to failure; even though Tepples has discovered Form Feed, he doesn't seem to have discovered that it does different crap on different platforms (such as, for example, nothing in Windows, DOS, Linux, BSD or MacOS.)
None of these characters have portable behavior even across the big three user platforms. Stop trying to implement them; you've got VT codes, which are far superior.
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#133580 - BigRedPimp - Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:25 am
Just for people can be prepared, I give to you the note I've added to the character processing part of the console.
Code: |
/*
The only special characters we will handle are tab (\t), carriage return (\r) & line feed (\n).
Carriage return & line feed will function the same: go to next line and put cursor at the beginning.
For everything else, use VT sequences.
Reason: VT sequences are more specific to the task of cursor placement.
The special escape sequences \a \b \f & \v are archaic and non-portable.
*/ |
#133581 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:33 am
I just realized that Tepples is trying to implement vertical tab as if it was another linefeed.
NO PLATFORM ON EARTH DOES THAT. What happened to you bitching about deviation from standard behavior?
It's people like Tepples that make me wish programming had a license.[/b]
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#133615 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:31 pm
BigRedPimp wrote: |
tepples wrote: | If you're not helping, then maybe I'll try. |
As for you, know who you're talking to before blasting me, ok? |
English is a hard language. There is no difference between singular "you" and plural "you" in standard English. I meant the plural.
StoneCypher wrote: |
Of course, if Tepples knew what he was talking about, he'd know that control character behavior is non-portable. |
"Non-portable" may mean "implementation-defined" or "unspecified" or "undefined". An implementation-defined behavior SHOULD follow common practice if it is equally easy, or people will just make wrappers that eat CPU time in order to abstract implementation-defined behavior into some sort of portable behavior. But I still stand by my assertion that all implementation-defined behavior of a compiler or of a standard library MUST be documented.
StoneCypher wrote: |
What it'll do on a DOS machine, which only responds to \r\n in pairs, varies according to the version of the ANSI driver loaded. |
For which the C standard library used by compilers on Microsoft platforms compensates by opening stdout in a "text" mode by default.
StoneCypher wrote: |
Repeat with me: "control characters are platform specific. DevKitPro can do whatever the hell it wants, and it's correct." |
control characters are platform specific. DevKitPro can do whatever the hell it wants, and it's correct. But it is possible for an implementation to be both "correct" and "so annoying that it drives people to make their own libraries such as AGBTTY instead of the built-in one in order to follow some aspects of common practice". See Google: technically correct but.
BigRedPimp wrote: |
The special escape sequences \a \b \f & \v are archaic and non-portable. |
What is the portable replacement for the BEL character ('\a') that exhibits the behavior found in Digital VT100, Digital VT220, the MS-DOS console, Apple II, and AGBTTY, namely to play a beep or other analogous visual or aural alert?
StoneCypher wrote: |
I just realized that Tepples is trying to implement vertical tab as if it was another linefeed.
NO PLATFORM ON EARTH DOES THAT. |
The version of libnds in CVS at the time I posted the comment did that. It treated 10 ('\n'), 11 (vertical tab), 12 (form feed), and 13 ('\r') as a newline. Unaware of the correct behavior of vertical tab, I was making the minimal change to the source.
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#133620 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:21 pm
Quote: |
For which the C standard library used by compilers on Microsoft platforms compensates by opening stdout in a "text" mode by default. |
Jesus, you can't even write this stuff. No, douche, text mode means that the control characters are interpreted at all, as opposed to binary mode, where all of this goes away. You couldn't be wronger. (By the by, stdout doesn't have text or binary mode - that's about filestreams, and cout is not a filestream.)
Like before, read a fucking book. You're just putting together things you heard that you think makes you sound clueful.
Quote: |
"so annoying that it drives people to make their own ... See Google: technically correct but. |
Oh, sure. In order to point out why not following what you want drives users away, point at the world's most popular in a category. That's not retarded in any way at all.
Quote: |
What is the portable replacement for the BEL character ('\a') that exhibits the behavior found in Digital VT100, Digital VT220, the MS-DOS console, Apple II, and AGBTTY, namely to play a beep or other analogous visual or aural alert? |
First off, VT100 and VT220 don't have bel. I know, you want to read the internet and repeat what you read, because you think it makes you smart; it doesn't. VT100 and VT220 are extension character sets. BEL comes from VT52.
Second off, Apple ][ didn't have noise or flash support on 0x07. So, your little tirade about these backwater platforms that you've never even used (you don't even know what a 220 looks like, and I'd be willing to bet you didn't even know there was such a thing as a VT220 physical object) is faulty from the get go: you're listing platforms that, once again, do different things. There is no interpretation of BEL that does the same thing across all those platforms.
Third off, BEL is disabled by default in VT52. As such, on the VT100 and VT220, you would not actually have heard anything unless you had issued about a half dozen other commands first. This is primarily hilarious because once again you're caught not knowing what the hell you're talking about.
Fourth off, you can't implement BEL on a platform with sound card channel requirements unless you think your printf should be overriding the fucking music engine, which is possibly the least intelligent available behavior. For someone bitching about pissing users off and driving users away, you sure don't think much about their actual needs. They seem more to be an excuse for you to condescend to others (which is likely convenient because you can't do it on grounds of your skill, your donations to the community, your understanding of the language or the size of any of your projects.)
Quote: |
StoneCypher wrote:
I just realized that Tepples is trying to implement vertical tab as if it was another linefeed.
NO PLATFORM ON EARTH DOES THAT.
The version of libnds in CVS at the time I posted the comment did that. |
You moron, just in your last paste you were throwing a tantrum that libnds didn't do the same thing as other platforms, now you're using it as a justification for your bugs?
What a hypocrite. And, stupid to boot.
Quote: |
It treated 10 ('\n'), 11 (vertical tab), 12 (form feed), and 13 ('\r') as a newline. Unaware of the correct behavior of vertical tab, I was making the minimal change to the source. |
What amazes me is that you actually don't see the problem with the sentence "unaware of correct behavior, I started making changes{, then telling other people to do the same.}"
Every programmer who listens to you declines in quality for it. You should know better than to give advice; you don't know the language and you don't know the correct behavior of the code you're altering.
In fact, I'd tell you to just go write some games, but frankly I think it's beyond you.
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#133623 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:45 pm
StoneCypher wrote: |
(By the by, stdout doesn't have text or binary mode - that's about filestreams, and cout is not a filestream.) |
stdout is a FILE*, and ordinarily, a FILE* for output can be opened in "w" or "wb" mode. Therefore, either a FILE* or a file descriptor has what is commonly called a "binary mode".
Quote: |
First off, VT100 and VT220 don't have bel. I know, you want to read the internet and repeat what you read, because you think it makes you smart; it doesn't. |
I seem to remember using a Digital VT-something connected to a microVAX running VMS for a computer science class at South Side High School in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was nine years ago, so I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was definitely of the VT100 family terminals, and yes it did have a beep (which could be turned off).
Quote: |
Second off, Apple ][ didn't have noise or flash support on 0x07. |
When I run this Applesoft BASIC program in Applewin, I get a beep:
Code: |
10 PRINT CHR$(7)
20 END |
If you run this program, and you do not get a beep, then sound may be turned off. If sound is turned on, this should buzz:
Code: |
10 FOR X = 1 TO 100
20 Y = PEEK(-16336)
30 NEXT
40 END |
Quote: |
As such, on the VT100 and VT220, you would not actually have heard anything unless you had issued about a half dozen other commands first. |
Commands which, as far as I could tell, the VMS login script installed on the machines we were using did for me. When I was using VMS, I only explored it enough to complete the course work, so I didn't bother to look at the contents of these scripts. Or maybe VMS's terminal driver "cooked" the terminal outputs for me.
Quote: |
Fourth off, you can't implement BEL on a platform with sound card channel requirements unless you think your printf should be overriding the fucking music engine, which is possibly the least intelligent available behavior. |
And you can't implement the terminal itself on a platform with video card memory requirements unless you think your printf should be overriding the fucking graphics engine, which is possibly the least intelligent available behavior. Just as one would specify a block of VRAM for the map, one would specify a square wave channel (8 to 13) or a noise channel (14 to 15) for the beep, or any other number to disable beeping.
Quote: |
Quote: | The version of libnds in CVS at the time I posted the comment did that. |
You moron, just in your last paste you were throwing a tantrum that libnds didn't do the same thing as other platforms, now you're using it as a justification for your bugs? |
It's called changing only one thing at a time.
Quote: |
What amazes me is that you actually don't see the problem with the sentence "unaware of correct behavior, I started making changes{, then telling other people to do the same.}" |
I started making changes to the for which I knew the common practice, and leaving alone those areas for which I did not.
Quote: |
In fact, I'd tell you to just go write some games, but frankly I think it's beyond you. |
What disqualifies the work exhibited at http://www.pineight.com/lj/ ?
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Last edited by tepples on Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
#133631 - BigRedPimp - Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:34 pm
Changes in CVS now
Now go find something else to cry about. There's a reason nobody listens to what you have to say. Your bashing of the work of others (as well as the people themselves) and proclaiming of your own work as superior comes across as cocky, rude, obnoxious and tiresome. Your doing so is very counter-productive to those around you and I'm still trying to figure out how or why you ended up becoming a mod.
#133633 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:47 pm
I have made mistakes. I no longer feel ready for the scene. This is the extent of my drama.
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#133634 - chuckstudios - Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:48 pm
BigRedPimp wrote: |
Changes in CVS now
Now go find something else to cry about. There's a reason nobody listens to what you have to say. Your bashing of the work of others (as well as the people themselves) and proclaiming of your own work as superior comes across as cocky, rude, obnoxious and tiresome. Your doing so is very counter-productive to those around you and I'm still trying to figure out how or why you ended up becoming a mod. |
Wow.
Last edited by chuckstudios on Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
#133635 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:01 pm
A couple of years back, I ran an informal compo to see who could get tetris done fastest. I came in third in my own contest. It took me a little over four hours, and what I produced was significantly fuller featured than that.
What disqualifies your afternoon project from making you a game developer? Probably the same thing that makes people who write pong ineligible for million dollar publishing budgets: the fact that your work barely qualifies as a mediocre tech demo.
Also, perhaps you're confused. I didn't say "go clone someone else's game."
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#133641 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:25 pm
StoneCypher wrote: |
Also, perhaps you're confused. I didn't say "go clone someone else's game." |
What defines an original game?
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#133643 - Dark Knight ez - Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:35 pm
Quote: |
[..] I'm still trying to figure out how or why you ended up becoming a mod. |
Easy. Tepples is one of the most helpful people I've seen at message boards when it comes to hints, tips, help and/or feedback.
I have no clue why this topic got so immature all of a sudden. It's like I missed thousands of threads preluding to this... it's sad stuff. Grow up.
Also, StoneCypher, you should be ashamed of yourself.
One, for putting down other people's work because you think that you and your own work are superior.
And two, for claiming you are bashing tepples and his work for the reason he was bashing another person and his work. See the irony in that.
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#133648 - chronicler - Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:54 pm
Quote: |
I have no clue why this topic got so immature all of a sudden. |
I DO have a clue...
His name is StoneCypher and his hobby is bullying. He is 42 years old and is a parasite. Someone else pays for his food & rent. He has no man-friends and no girl-friends.
As a result he hangs out in programming forums such as this and IRC to act superior and bully people such as tepples. Now you have a clue.
#133650 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:00 pm
What work? I have no work. My stand-alone GBA work amounts to a few tech demos: - a copy of the rules of Tetris, with a spinning playfield
- another copy of the rules of Tetris, with every option in the book
- a copy of the rules of Dr. Mario
- a copy of the rules of Yoshi's Cookie
- a copy of the rules of Minesweeper
- a copy of the rules of Lumines
- a few test cases to point out VisualBoyAdvance bugs
- a program designed to induce seizures in photosensitive individuals (and cycle stuck pixels)
My GBA library work isn't much bigger - an archive format that's no longer relevant on the DS
- a port of the IMA ADPCM audio codec
- a port of Toast, an implementation of the GSM audio codec
- a few utilities that got included in devkitARM
And only two DS programs worth mentioning: - the second copy of Tetris
- a tool to back up and restore Animal Crossing: Wild World towns to SLOT-2 memory cards, whose only advantage over eepinator was automatic naming of the file after the town and current date
[/self-deprecation]
I became a moderator back in the days when I used to back up every complaint I made with a test case. Later, I became busier with other things on my plate, I didn't have time to be as thorough, and I left the door wide open for StoneCypher to call me out.
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Last edited by tepples on Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
#133651 - Dood77 - Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:01 pm
EDIT: again, two posts were made in the process of writing this one, no matter. My opinion stands.
Dark Knight ez wrote: |
One, for putting down other people's work because you think that you and your own work are superior.
And two, for claiming you are bashing tepples and his work for the reason he was bashing another person and his work. See the irony in that. |
I agree with this.
BigRedPimp wrote: |
Now go find something else to cry about. There's a reason nobody listens to what you have to say. Your bashing of the work of others (as well as the people themselves) and proclaiming of your own work as superior comes across as cocky, rude, obnoxious and tiresome. Your doing so is very counter-productive to those around you and I'm still trying to figure out how or why you ended up becoming a mod. |
And as for this, I will break it down. And as for my earlier post, I apologize for my ignorance for your position in the community, however most of my post still stands as my opinion, much the same as the opinion that follows:
BigRedPimp wrote: |
Now go find something else to cry about. |
Unless tepples says otherwise, he was not crying about the inconsisancy. Whether he was right or wrong I do not know, I haven't the knowledge. What good projects are out there that don't let you report bugs or inconsistencies? Tepples language in that post was anything but inflaming or demeaning. Which can't be said by yours or StoneCypher's recent posts.
BigRedPimp wrote: |
There's a reason nobody listens to what you have to say. |
Obviously 'nobody' is a hugely inaccurate generalization.
BigRedPimp wrote: |
Your bashing of the work of others (as well as the people themselves) and proclaiming of your own work as superior comes across as cocky, rude, obnoxious and tiresome. |
Just like my comment on the first sentence, he didn't use language that was derogatory towards any person, or their work. He has never, to my experience, proclaimed he had superior work. Something StoneCypher just did. Just because there are better "hello world" programs out there, should I not program my own?
BigRedPimp wrote: |
Your doing so is very counter-productive to those around you and I'm still trying to figure out how or why you ended up becoming a mod. |
I can tell you getting mad at someone else for a post that was blown to humongous proportions is definitely something that doesn't get you the position of moderator.
_________________
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Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#133664 - StoneCypher - Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:49 pm
Quote: |
Quote: | There's a reason nobody listens to what you have to say. |
Obviously 'nobody' is a hugely inaccurate generalization. |
You're right: he meant "the nobodies."
Dood77, when you do something for this community, speak up again. Until then, you're beneath my contempt.
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#133667 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:55 pm
What should I do first to become no longer a nobody?
_________________
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-- Who?
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#133678 - Dood77 - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:19 am
StoneCypher wrote: |
Dood77, when you do something for this community, speak up again. Until then, you're beneath my contempt. |
You're right, I have released no code for the DS, GBA, or PC alike that I can submit as a benefit to the community. But if everyone who joins the forum had to have contributed to the community, what would the community be for?
I exist in this community because I'm interested in what updates there are in DS homebrew, and in someday being a programmer. I occasionally add my opinion, on things I think I might have a grasp of, some more so than others. When I'm wrong people correct me, 95% of the time kindly and helpfully. Occasionally I ask questions, to which I get usually good answers.
I can't say that without my 468 posts the forum would be much different. My "speaking up" was intended to be a contribution to the community, in a way; when I see other people fanning flames I try to douse them, if I can provide a credible argument. If my logic is flawed I submit to others criticism, and if I ever have over exaggerated things in my posts I try to admit things as I see them, and I wish all to do the same. I admit that there were possibly previous histories that I do not have knowledge of. Although I still stand in my opinion that this is not the place nor the means which previous grudges should be shown forth and sorted through.
Really the biggest contribution I have given is extensively testing his QuakeDS port, and someday hopefully it's site will be designed by me. Other than that, I will contribute where and when I can, But it will definitely be for the benefit of the community, not just so I can be "above your contempt".
_________________
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#133741 - Lick - Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:08 am
I did something for the community, now can I be promoted from a nobody to a total jerk?
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http://licklick.wordpress.com
#133749 - Ant6n - Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:00 am
wowowow, don't be hasty, you forgot the intermediary steps:
complete idiot looser
absolute asshole moron
etc...
I think it's ironic how somebody suddenly shows up without much background in the 'community', without having done anything here, but starts a witchhunt on how everybody else is apparently worthless; somehow even the ones that drive this place.
#133760 - wintermute - Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:20 pm