#142421 - Bubu - Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:37 am
Hello,
I don't know how many of you use PALib to make a commercial game for the DS, but i was just wondering if anyone actually uses it, and if it's legal to use PALib for DS development ?
thanks
#142423 - tepples - Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:42 am
Homebrew games use completely different libraries from commercial games. I'd guess that the difference between the two environments is at least as big as the difference between Windows and Linux.
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#142438 - HyperHacker - Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:18 am
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nintendo requires that you use the official devkit for licensed games. No PALib there, but probably better high-level stuff. Unfortunately you don't get control of ARM7 last I heard, which is a real shame, given it's 33% of your processing power. :-/
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#142448 - keldon - Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:24 am
Maybe ask Nintendo if you're allowed?
#142462 - kusma - Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:43 am
With the existence of pass-mechanisms, shouldn't it be possible to publish games without the support/dependence on Nintendo? Has this ever been done (on a proper commercial level, that is...)?
#142463 - tepples - Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:50 am
| kusma wrote: |
| With the existence of pass-mechanisms, shouldn't it be possible to publish games without the support/dependence on Nintendo? |
It depends. Has the price of NoPass circuitry fallen to where one can buy blank SLOT-1 cards in bulk for under $10 each? You'd need that in order to price-compete with $20 DS games.
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#142464 - kusma - Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:14 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Has the price of NoPass circuitry fallen to where one can buy blank SLOT-1 cards in bulk for under $10 each? |
I don't think this is a real issue, if i.e EA wanted cheap NoPass circuitry, they'd be able to get that. I have seen some of the distribution-options some of the major publishers have looked seriously at, and some of those has been pretty... extreme in comparison. I can't really tell much about them though, due to NDAs and trade secrets.
#142467 - tepples - Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:46 pm
| kusma wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | Has the price of NoPass circuitry fallen to where one can buy blank SLOT-1 cards in bulk for under $10 each? |
I don't think this is a real issue, if i.e EA wanted cheap NoPass circuitry, they'd be able to get that. |
True, but the big companies with big wallets are big enough to have at least the official option of dealing with Nintendo. I was talking more specifically about smaller print runs.
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#142469 - Bubu - Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:25 pm
It's illegal ;) You have to use the real sdk.
#142470 - kusma - Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:42 pm
| Bubu wrote: |
| It's illegal ;) You have to use the real sdk. |
How is that illegal? US courts have ruled in favor of publishers reverse-engineering platforms before due to fair use.
#142471 - kusma - Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:45 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| True, but the big companies with big wallets are big enough to have at least the official option of dealing with Nintendo. I was talking more specifically about smaller print runs. |
The big money are in publishing, so I'm pretty sure other big publishers than Nintendo would be interested in publishing on DS themselves. Unless there's something about the Nintendo DS ecosystem I missed.
#142474 - Darkflame - Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:56 pm
I simply think its more a case of "not much incentive to do it" rather then "cant be done".
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#142475 - Jesse - Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:31 pm
| kusma wrote: |
| How is that illegal? US courts have ruled in favor of publishers reverse-engineering platforms before due to fair use. |
You still need to include a Nintendo-logo in your program to be able to boot it, right? That makes it violating copyright laws. I believe that is a pretty common way for companies to protect themselves.
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#142476 - keldon - Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:41 pm
Maybe they just refuse to give you cookies!!! But on a serious note I would put my money on such statements being said regardless of whether you were legally allowed to do it. Sega vs Accolade was a long time ago and they are not still going to rely on failed past methods, although the cartridges to (to my knowledge) have patented technology ... well that's just from my memory of seeing a patent number on the cartridges.
And with them being one of the only (or the only) manufacturer of the cartridges(at profitable prices), they can just give you a big NO when you request a press!
Last edited by keldon on Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
#142477 - Vich - Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:45 pm
It will probably depend on the country-specific laws.
I think the biggest problem is that when you publish a cartridge(with included passme and game) and Nintendo decides to update the firmware in such a way that your cartridge can't work anymore, you're in big trouble with your clients, because the game they bought for the DS will probably never work again on the DS.
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#142481 - Lynx - Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:19 pm
| Quote: |
| It's illegal ;) You have to use the real sdk. |
I love it when someone creates an account just to post information when they have no idea what they are talking about.. yeah!
We all know that Nintendo requires official developers to use the official licensed SDK for them to publish a game. But, that doesn't make it illegal for unlicensed developers to use other software.
| Quote: |
| You still need to include a Nintendo-logo in your program to be able to boot it, right? |
Is this a true statement? 1) Is there a Nintendo logo in the current DS homebrew we are using right now? 2) Is there a Nintendo logo built into the NoPass code included in the current slot-1 devices? 3) If so, is it a fully copyright enforcable logo?
As for the cost of the hardware, I believe you could do it at a reasonable price. But, after you have spent the money on 10,000 write once cards and the programmer... Then what? You'd have to spend a lot more on marketing to get the game out there. If that is even possible.
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#142485 - Vich - Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:44 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Quote: | | You still need to include a Nintendo-logo in your program to be able to boot it, right? |
Is this a true statement? 1) Is there a Nintendo logo in the current DS homebrew we are using right now? 2) Is there a Nintendo logo built into the NoPass code included in the current slot-1 devices? 3) If so, is it a fully copyright enforcable logo? |
Placing logo's is usually because of using SDKs, just like with Havok. IANAL, but it would be very wrong to place a Nintendo logo on something that is not certified by them in any way.
[edit] And while you can't use Nintendo's logo, they have the right to warn customers to "never buy non-certified software(without the logo)" as it hasn't gone through their QA department.
| Quote: |
| As for the cost of the hardware, I believe you could do it at a reasonable price. But, after you have spent the money on 10,000 write once cards and the programmer... Then what? You'd have to spend a lot more on marketing to get the game out there. If that is even possible. |
Writing it to hardware would be a very risky thing as it might become invalid with possible future firmware updates, as I stated in my previous post.
And of course, when you try to rival with Nintendo and publish your own cartridges, you can bet they'll put effort in tightening their security to disable homebrewn software.
Then I think that the question that remains is: can I sell my homebrewn ROMs as files(not cartridges)?
And this would depend on the laws of the country again. I think you might not be able to do so in the US, but I think it's possible in the Netherlands, but again, IANAL.
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#142486 - Mighty Max - Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:53 pm
| Vich wrote: |
| tightening their security to disable homebrewn software. |
Unlike other consoles there is not really a need to unless you are creating a direct opponent to an relased or planned game, because the hardware does not need to be payed by the games.
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#142488 - Vich - Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:01 pm
| Mighty Max wrote: |
| Vich wrote: | | tightening their security to disable homebrewn software. |
Unlike other consoles there is not really a need to unless you are creating a direct opponent to an relased or planned game, because the hardware does not need to be payed by the games. |
What you create in such case is the idea for others, that they can make their own games for the DS without going past the Nintendo company(who wants a share of the game profit). I think that's not a threat to a game, but to Nintendo itself.
[edit] Furthermore, I don't get the problem:
If you have a commercial game, you should have written it in such a way that it's easy to replace the libnds code by the official SDK. That's what I do.
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#142491 - Lynx - Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:53 pm
Vich, the Nintendo logo question is being asked because (please correct me if this is wrong) the GBA checks for it prior to booting the cart. Which means all Slot-2 devices have an encrypted Nintendo logo in them to boot.
So, my question is if it is a FACT that slot-1 also requires such. If so, what provides it, the hardware or the .nds ROM. And if I remember correct, there was question around being able to enforce copyright on something that is encrypted.
I don't know why you would say you can't sell homebrew roms in the US. I'm almost sure you can, the real problem is getting people to actually pay for them.
And it doesn't matter if coders write it so they can use the official SDK or not. Most have no plans to ever need it to be SDK compatible, and why would they?
Of course Nintendo isn't going to welcome the idea with open arms, but as long as you follow the laws (or do something that isn't in the law yet and can afford to go down that route) there isn't anything they can do legally. Of course, laws don't really matter if you can't afford to protect yourself in the first place. If Nintendo sent every homebrew web site a cease and desist order, although we aren't breaking any laws, how many could hire a lawyer to defend themselves? It only takes a few hundred dollars to file a complaint and you are then forced to hire a lawyer to represent yourself. So, they all shut down.
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#142496 - IIMarckus - Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:15 pm
Hi,
Not sure if this has been pointed out already, but Sega v. Accolade ruled that it's legal to sell unlicensed software for game systems, as it promotes competition. As for the Nintendo logo that's required for a Game Boy game to boot,
| Quote: |
...There is no evidence whatsoever that Accolade wished Sega?s trademark to be displayed when Accolade?s games were played on Sega?s consoles. To the contrary, Accolade included disclaimers on its packaging materials which stated that ?Accolade, Inc. is not associated with Sega Enterprises, Ltd.? When questioned regarding the Sega Message and its potential effect on consumers, Alan Miller testified that Accolade does not welcome the association between its product and Sega and would gladly avoid that association if there were a way to do so. Miller testified that Accolade?s engineers had not been able to discover any way to modify their game cartridges so that the games would operate on the Genesis III without prompting the screen display of the Sega Message.
...
Whatever Sega?s intent with respect to the TMSS, the device serves to limit competition in the market for Genesis-compatible games and to mislabel the products of competitors. Moreover, by seeking injunctive relief based on the mislabeling it has itself induced, Sega seeks once again to take advantage of its trademark to exclude its competitors from the market. The use of a mark for such purpose is inconsistent with the Lanham Act. |
I have a copy of "Exodus," an unlicensed game made for the GB by Wisdom Tree (aka Color Dreams), and right after displaying the GB logo, the game prints a disclaimer saying that Game Boy is a trademark of Nintendo, Wisdom Tree isn't affiliated with Nintendo in any way, etc. You'd probably be okay if you put a disclaimer in the game stating that you're not licensed by Nintendo... but then again, I'm no lawyer.
Johan Kotlinski sells his homebrew GB music sequencer, Little Sound DJ, for $39.98 USD. I don't believe he's ever had problems.
#142510 - tepples - Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:13 pm
| IIMarckus wrote: |
| I have a copy of "Exodus," an unlicensed game made for the GB by Wisdom Tree (aka Color Dreams), and right after displaying the GB logo, the game prints a disclaimer saying that Game Boy is a trademark of Nintendo, Wisdom Tree isn't affiliated with Nintendo in any way, etc. You'd probably be okay if you put a disclaimer in the game stating that you're not licensed by Nintendo |
Specifically, owners of a GBA Movie Player have seen such a disclaimer in red text dozens of times.
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#142514 - Vich - Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:50 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
Vich, the Nintendo logo question is being asked because (please correct me if this is wrong) the GBA checks for it prior to booting the cart. Which means all Slot-2 devices have an encrypted Nintendo logo in them to boot.
So, my question is if it is a FACT that slot-1 also requires such. If so, what provides it, the hardware or the .nds ROM. And if I remember correct, there was question around being able to enforce copyright on something that is encrypted.
|
Ah you have a point there. I didn't see it in that context.
| Quote: |
| I don't know why you would say you can't sell homebrew roms in the US. I'm almost sure you can, the real problem is getting people to actually pay for them. |
I thought it is illegal to bypass things like copyright restrictions and encryption in the US? (because of the DMCA and the like)
I quote from http://www.anti-dmca.org/faq_local.html
| Quote: |
The DMCA makes is a crime to "circumvent" copyright protection systems. Here is the language:
`Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems
`(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--
|
| Quote: |
| And it doesn't matter if coders write it so they can use the official SDK or not. Most have no plans to ever need it to be SDK compatible, and why would they? |
Indeed, it doesn't matter to write structured and tidy code if you are developping homebrewn software, but then you can't expect an easy path to get commercial results afterwards.
(although some project's code make my hair stand up - no, not yours rhaleblian)
I think that if you want to take your software to a more serious path in development, you have to be more serious about your code too.
| Quote: |
| Of course Nintendo isn't going to welcome the idea with open arms, but as long as you follow the laws (or do something that isn't in the law yet and can afford to go down that route) there isn't anything they can do legally. Of course, laws don't really matter if you can't afford to protect yourself in the first place. If Nintendo sent every homebrew web site a cease and desist order, although we aren't breaking any laws, how many could hire a lawyer to defend themselves? It only takes a few hundred dollars to file a complaint and you are then forced to hire a lawyer to represent yourself. So, they all shut down. |
Even aside from the laws: if they just want us to stop making homebrewn software, they'll probably just introduce new firmwares with fixes to avoid running homebrewn software. At the moment we're no real threat to them, so they just let us.
The PSP on the other hand is a different story ;)
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#142518 - HyperHacker - Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:01 am
Hasn't it been established that Nintendo can't really force firmware updates? All DSes have at least the first 64K of the firmware protected by SL1, newer ones have all but the user settings protected. I doubt they're going to want users flashing the systems themselves.
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#142521 - tepples - Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:19 am
| Vich wrote: |
| I thought it is illegal to bypass things like copyright restrictions and encryption in the US? (because of the DMCA and the like) |
The definition of an access control mechanism is not all-encompassing. Chamberlain v. Skylink and Lexmark v. Static Control.
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| Hasn't it been established that Nintendo can't really force firmware updates? |
It's also been all but established that the DS is the last system for which this is the case.
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#142580 - Lynx - Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:17 pm
| Quote: |
| I think that if you want to take your software to a more serious path in development, you have to be more serious about your code too. |
I agree, but many are just starting out programming and don't really know how it's supposed to be structured. That is why you have people like me (non programmer) with a single main.c file and others with 17 .c files to do the same thing.
| Quote: |
| if they just want us to stop making homebrewn software, they'll probably just introduce new firmwares with fixes to avoid running homebrewn software. |
Both solutions could be suicide for Nintendo. But suing homebrew sites would be the cheapest and get the fastest results.
But, we need to keep in mind that they can't change the firmware to the point that original released commercial games no longer work. So, if (this is just theory now) we somehow used SuperMario 64 DS to exploit something, the "fix" they release would still have to allow the original SuperMario 64DS to run. Sure, they can fix "dumb" things like we did with the Original PassMe code from DarkFader by checking the headers to make sure they are starting the code within the real range code should be run from, but if fixing it rendered thousands of commercial games broken, I think you'd find a very angry customer base. They would then need to decide if potential pirates outways the public attention making such a move would cause on all media formats. Right now, slot-1 devices are acting like official released games.
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#142608 - HyperHacker - Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:55 pm
That's the biggest problem they would face if they wanted to block unlicensed carts: with the encryption broken, they can authenticate just like licensed ones, so there's no good way to tell them apart. They would have to do something like sign all future games, and have the firmware check that either the game's signature is correct or a hash of the ROM matches that of an existing licensed game. Of course, the two obvious problems with this are 1) there's hundreds if not thousands of games out already; the hash list would be huge and 2) hashing the ROM could take a while.
The cartridge encryption and a bit of obscurity was basically the only protection they had. Now that those are broken there's not really anything they can do.
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#142635 - kusma - Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 am
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| 1) there's hundreds if not thousands of games out already; the hash list would be huge and |
...and it will grow while games are published; for the rest of the console's commercial life-time...
#142683 - tepples - Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:12 pm
I think the idea is that games published after the first few thousand would have a valid RSA signature, just like DS Download Play clients do.
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#142686 - Lynx - Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:44 pm
But, then what happens to the first few thousand commercial games? Do they no longer work, or do all NoPass/Slot-1 devices change to a header that matches those games?
And speaking of RSA, if they decided to use it for DS Download Play, why not use it on the game cards?
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#142698 - tepples - Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:25 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| But, then what happens to the first few thousand commercial games? Do they no longer work, or do all NoPass/Slot-1 devices change to a header that matches those games? |
More than the header would need to match. The entire ARM7 and ARM9 binaries would need to hash to a SHA-1 value in the firmware's whitelist.
| Quote: |
| And speaking of RSA, if they decided to use it for DS Download Play, why not use it on the game cards? |
Nintendo realized this when developing the Wii firmware.
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#142707 - HyperHacker - Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:21 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| But, then what happens to the first few thousand commercial games? Do they no longer work, or do all NoPass/Slot-1 devices change to a header that matches those games? |
All future games would be signed, and all present games would be whitelisted. If the game is signed or the ROM checksum/hash matches one listed in the firmware, it runs.
| Quote: |
| And speaking of RSA, if they decided to use it for DS Download Play, why not use it on the game cards? |
Size, probably. With the DS's CPU power, checking the signature of the entire ROM would take a while, and only checking part of it would leave the possibilities of other executable files being changed or data files being modified to exploit buffer overflows.
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#142746 - M3d10n - Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:30 pm
You *have* to use the Nintendo-supplied ARM7 library, but I never saw confirmation if this refers to a pre-compiled ARM7 binary, or that you have to link your ARM7 code to a pre-compiled library. The main reason for this seems to be the FCC regulations for radio-based wireless devices, and a standardized ARM7 library makes sure games aren't doing nasty stuff with the Wifi chip.
I've read in a few places that Nintendo offers the source code for their entire SDK, ARM7 lib included. I'm not sure if you're allowed to modify and recompile it (probably yes, otherwise why include the source?).
I've also heard of commercial GBA games which were entirely developed using HAM-lib or other homebrew libraries alongside the official SDK for "blessing" the game. The same should be possible for DS development: since the whole thing is memory mapped, like the GBA, all you need is a document of all memory addresses and what kind of info you can write to/read from them to make your game work.
Of course, the booting process surely must have some details which require copyrighted data for the games to work properly on non-modified DS units. Does the pass me devices contain such copyrighted data?
In the end I also agree with what was said before: if you want to make a commercial game using, use good coding practices so you can replace LibNDS or PALib by Nintendo's SDK when you secure a publishing deal. I'm doing that right now, by coding a "platform" layer which sits between libnds/libfat and my game code so we can start developing the game while the lengthy application process with Nintendo crawls around.
#142764 - tepples - Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:03 pm
M3d10n is right aobut a "platform" library. For example, with Lockjaw Tetromino Game, I developed the game logic on Windows and then wrote front-ends that compile on other platforms.
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#142776 - M3d10n - Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:01 am
That's a good idea, tepples. I've been thinking of extending the platform libary in a way that allows my to compile and test games on Windows, due to the much better debugging options, but haven't got onto that yet (it's a lot of work).
The most I did was write some of my classes so I could use the same .h and .cpp files in both my game and in my model converter without modifications (#ifdef FTW!). That way I could debug stuff like my animation and quaternion classes with ease. Those would've been a total pain to debug on the DS itself.
#142899 - Lynx - Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:09 pm
The only problem we have come across with this is DS specific issues. Like with NDSHB Hive, it works perfectly when run under Linux, it's when the DS is running it that all goes to hell.
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#142914 - wintermute - Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:00 am
| M3d10n wrote: |
You *have* to use the Nintendo-supplied ARM7 library, but I never saw confirmation if this refers to a pre-compiled ARM7 binary, or that you have to link your ARM7 code to a pre-compiled library. The main reason for this seems to be the FCC regulations for radio-based wireless devices, and a standardized ARM7 library makes sure games aren't doing nasty stuff with the Wifi chip.
|
Nintendo sanctioned binary only.
| Quote: |
I've read in a few places that Nintendo offers the source code for their entire SDK, ARM7 lib included. I'm not sure if you're allowed to modify and recompile it (probably yes, otherwise why include the source?).
|
source is not supplied for the ARM7 core.
libnds, PAlib and any similar DS libraries are not permitted in commercial games, only the official SDK. There are very good reasons for that, as evidenced by the homebrew wifi related difficulties.
| Quote: |
In the end I also agree with what was said before: if you want to make a commercial game using, use good coding practices so you can replace LibNDS or PALib by Nintendo's SDK when you secure a publishing deal. I'm doing that right now, by coding a "platform" layer which sits between libnds/libfat and my game code so we can start developing the game while the lengthy application process with Nintendo crawls around. |
If you intend to go commercial then that's the only option you have - make sure that the library you're using can be replaced easily.
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#142950 - keldon - Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:08 pm
Is your involvement in DevKitArm touching grey areas on your NDA?
#142990 - wintermute - Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:19 pm
Not really, I'm fortunate enough to not be subject to NDAs where it might impinge on my toolchains. Most of my DS SDK knowlege comes from some consultancy work relating to using devkitARM for official work. That didn't really work out in the end, for reasons I'm still not really that clear on.
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#143692 - ghuldan - Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:23 am
I mailed nintendo of america quite a while ago about what a non-licended GBA developper has to do to become a licensed one, and if it was required to use official devkits, the answer was something like that :
You must have developpement experience in game industry to access nintendo license dev, but if not, you just have to convince an editor to work with you and it would help you to get the license from nintendo.
About the official devkit, they apparently cannot dictate you what you have to use to make your game, but if it is not official tools you use, then they cannot help you back with problems you would encounter.
The answer was pretty clear about that, since the game run perfectly and pass nintendo quality tests, you are free. (Some licensed game designers told me those tests are not technicals, a game must have the approval of the nintendo fan club, if i remember they are just players who test your game, they checked if it is bug free and fun ... and with some dollars you can buy the approval of an horrific game ^^)
I lost the mail (it was 6 years ago), but i assume it's the same for DS.
#143746 - HyperHacker - Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:21 pm
Their approval method is just "play the game, see if it's any good, and watch for bugs"? I find that hard to believe. What stops games from having nasty bugs in the later levels or that don't always occur, or malicious code? Especially if the game were time-based; Pok?mon Ruby/Sapphire had a nasty glitch that would only show up a year after starting the game.
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#143754 - wintermute - Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:12 pm
| ghuldan wrote: |
I lost the mail (it was 6 years ago), but i assume it's the same for DS. |
It's not.
Official developers have no access to the arm7 and must use the API provided by Nintendo.
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#143755 - tepples - Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:18 pm
Are there any major holes in the official API, such as inability to stream software-mixed or software-decompressed or software-synthesized audio from the ARM9 to the ARM7? Around the DS launch, it was rumored that this was the case.
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#143760 - wintermute - Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:35 pm
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| Their approval method is just "play the game, see if it's any good, and watch for bugs"? I find that hard to believe. What stops games from having nasty bugs in the later levels or that don't always occur, or malicious code? Especially if the game were time-based; Pok?mon Ruby/Sapphire had a nasty glitch that would only show up a year after starting the game. |
You kind of answered your own question there, didn't you?
The approval method is a bit more involved than implied here but unfortunately I'm not sure how much I can divulge.
One GBC game I worked on failed it's initial lot check due to some issues running on the wideboy. They also raised a concern which I'm not even sure how they found - it involved how I was setting the link port during multiplayer setup.
I think we can probably safely say that tests are made for interoperability with other hardware Nintendo produces.
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#143761 - wintermute - Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:36 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Are there any major holes in the official API, such as inability to stream software-mixed or software-decompressed or software-synthesized audio from the ARM9 to the ARM7? Around the DS launch, it was rumored that this was the case. |
That's not a question that any authorised developer can answer, sorry. Talking about specifics of the SDK is a definite no no.
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#143845 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:39 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| If you intend to go commercial then that's the only option you have - make sure that the library you're using can be replaced easily. |
Assuming that "commercial" means "licensed," that is. Once upon a time, it didn't. It does at present mostly thanks to the lock down on distribution. But now maybe thanks to the Internet as a sales and distribution channel, it doesn't have to anymore.
...word is bondage...
#143939 - the warlock - Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:39 pm
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: | | If you intend to go commercial then that's the only option you have - make sure that the library you're using can be replaced easily. |
Assuming that "commercial" means "licensed," that is. Once upon a time, it didn't. It does at present mostly thanks to the lock down on distribution. But now maybe thanks to the Internet as a sales and distribution channel, it doesn't have to anymore. |
Yeah, because people are so totally going to pay actual money for raw .nds files to write to their flashcards.
I mean let's not kid ourselves here.
#143948 - chuckstudios - Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:41 pm
| the warlock wrote: |
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: | | wintermute wrote: | | If you intend to go commercial then that's the only option you have - make sure that the library you're using can be replaced easily. |
Assuming that "commercial" means "licensed," that is. Once upon a time, it didn't. It does at present mostly thanks to the lock down on distribution. But now maybe thanks to the Internet as a sales and distribution channel, it doesn't have to anymore. |
Yeah, because people are so totally going to pay actual money for raw .nds files to write to their flashcards.
I mean let's not kid ourselves here. |
Who said anything about .nds files? On the Wii's Virtual Console, people do pay actual money for Internet-downloaded games.
#143962 - the warlock - Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:57 pm
| chuckstudios wrote: |
| the warlock wrote: | | Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: | | wintermute wrote: | | If you intend to go commercial then that's the only option you have - make sure that the library you're using can be replaced easily. |
Assuming that "commercial" means "licensed," that is. Once upon a time, it didn't. It does at present mostly thanks to the lock down on distribution. But now maybe thanks to the Internet as a sales and distribution channel, it doesn't have to anymore. |
Yeah, because people are so totally going to pay actual money for raw .nds files to write to their flashcards.
I mean let's not kid ourselves here. |
Who said anything about .nds files? On the Wii's Virtual Console, people do pay actual money for Internet-downloaded games. |
I was simply implying that the type of people who buy flashcards tend not to want to ever pay for the materials on them, warez fuckers and homebrew enthusiasts alike. Of course everyone is welcome to distribute whatever they want in the way of PC software over the Internet, but I don't think you'd find much of a market trying to do the same for the DS.
And everything on the Wii's VC is licensed, of course. I mean, it has to come from Nintendo's own site. As far as consoles go, commercial and licensed have meant the same thing since the NES, and after Custer's Revenge you really can't blame them.
#143963 - tepples - Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:30 pm
So on what platform is a developer supposed to release its first handheld title?
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#143966 - the warlock - Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:50 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| So on what platform is a developer supposed to release its first handheld title? |
Windows Mobile, I guess. At least they're not actively trying to lock you out. Usually.
#169591 - anon.devr - Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:20 pm
p.s. Bubu is a licensed dev. He asked the same question on the newsgroup *gasp*
#169592 - Lynx - Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:28 pm
Lately, or two years ago when this post started?
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#169593 - anon.devr - Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:31 pm
When started. I wanted to say but could not expose myself as a developer. Now I have anonymous account via proxy and can.