#21433 - Zero - Sat May 29, 2004 2:30 am
can both screens have 3d simultaneously, anyone who saw it at e3 have any idea? all the demos I saw confused me. for instance the pikachu one had pikachu run from the top screen to the bottom screen but he was never on both at once, but pac 'n roll appeared to have a simple 3d object on the bottom screen (which appeared to act as a trackball with the touch screen), while the top screen had a full 3d environment. all the other games I saw (just in movie files I have not seen it in person) had at most sprite scaling/rotation on one screen and full 3d on the other.
[ps] and by 3d I mean hw accel/rendered 3d.
#21437 - dagamer34 - Sat May 29, 2004 3:45 am
There is no difference between the screen when it comes to 3D capabilities. However, only 1 screen can have 3D acceration at a time. Hopefully they will still have a bitmap mode like on the GBA. And maybe they will have listened to developers and put in 8-bit writes to VRAM so a mode 4-ish display won't be so hard to work with. Maybe...
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#21441 - Lupin - Sat May 29, 2004 7:59 am
Does anyone have any shots of the 3D hw in action? I wonder how much polygons the hw pipeline can handler...
_________________
Team Pokeme
My blog and PM ASM tutorials
#21455 - tepples - Sat May 29, 2004 3:49 pm
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| Hopefully they will still have a bitmap mode like on the GBA. |
Given that it's compatible with almost all GBA programs, modes 3, 4, and 5 will still be present.
| Quote: |
| And maybe they will have listened to developers and put in 8-bit writes to VRAM so a mode 4-ish display won't be so hard to work with. Maybe... |
CONFIRMED: The GBA side's CPU runs at double speed. SPECULATION: Nintendo has added more RAM to the GBA side. Imagine 128 KB of IWRAM, rendering 3D in IWRAM, and copying it to VRAM on vblank. Or imagine double the VRAM for double-buffered mode 3 without scaling.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#21463 - dagamer34 - Sat May 29, 2004 4:26 pm
8-bit writes in VRAM would be nice too!!
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#21742 - Zero - Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:37 am
A friend of mine (metsys) put together some of his observations on the graphics capabilities of the DS.
http://zerohaven.com/ds/wiki/index.php?title=Both-3D
#21760 - Kleevah - Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:22 pm
Well, if you watch the pikachu techdemo you can clearly see that the 3D-rendered pokemon runs from one screen to the other.
True, he is not on both screens simultaneously so there can be some sort of swapping that swaps the 3d-acceleration between the screens. But the background remains the same, so unless its a simple bitmap (it looks rendered, but it could be a trick i guess) there must be support for 3D on both screens at the same time.
Here is the video, hit "left click to download" if it doesnt work.
_________________
"Duct tape is just like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together...."
#21767 - ampz - Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:38 pm
| Kleevah wrote: |
| Well, if you watch the pikachu techdemo you can clearly see that the 3D-rendered pokemon runs from one screen to the other. |
I knew it! I knew it! With theese two screens all thoose pokemons will start jumping back and forth between the two screens, inevitably a few of them will miss, and then we have pokemons all over the place.. Horror, horror...
#21771 - tepples - Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:55 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| With theese two screens all thoose pokemons will start jumping back and forth between the two screens, inevitably a few of them will miss, and then we have pokemons all over the place.. Horror, horror... |
And then some homebrewer might create a demo like this:
Pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika
Slowpoke, Slowpoke
Pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika
Snorlax, Snorlax
Pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika
Mewtwo, Mewtwo
Pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika, pika
ARGH! Ekans! an Ekans!
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#21786 - Miked0801 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:10 am
(Loads shotgun)
Here Pika Pika Pika. Thunder shock this *Boom*
:)
#21787 - DiscoStew - Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:59 am
I imagine being able to draw a leg with a nice steel-toed boot, and yelling into the microphone "3.....2....1....LAUNCH!!!!!", and WHAM!......no more annoying Pikachu, animation and all.
Oh great, now look how off-topic this has become...........
_________________
DS - It's all about DiscoStew
#21789 - dagamer34 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:34 pm
| Miked0801 wrote: |
(Loads shotgun)
Here Pika Pika Pika. Thunder shock this *Boom*
:) |
Lol. That's not very Nintendo-like. Some Nintendo rep. is going to find this and make sure you never work on a Nintendo system ever again!!
Me, I'd put him in a rock cavern. Not much that conducts electricity there! Very Nintendo-like! =)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#21794 - tepples - Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:30 pm
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| Miked0801 wrote: | (Loads shotgun)
Here Pika Pika Pika. Thunder shock this *Boom* |
Lol. That's not very Nintendo-like. Some Nintendo rep. is going to find this and make sure you never work on a Nintendo system ever again!! |
If that's not very Nintendo-like, then you've never faced that overgrown yellow hamster with a lightning bolt shoved up its butt in Super Smash Bros. Melee, picked up a Super Scope, and sent Pikachu to meet his maker.
I wonder what kind of Smash Bros. game could be made with two screens.
Although I know that if the homebrew community does manage to crack the DS, the PlayChoice 10 emulator will be perfect.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#21803 - dagamer34 - Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:20 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| dagamer34 wrote: | | Miked0801 wrote: | (Loads shotgun)
Here Pika Pika Pika. Thunder shock this *Boom* |
Lol. That's not very Nintendo-like. Some Nintendo rep. is going to find this and make sure you never work on a Nintendo system ever again!! |
If that's not very Nintendo-like, then you've never faced that overgrown yellow hamster with a lightning bolt shoved up its butt in Super Smash Bros. Melee, picked up a Super Scope, and sent Pikachu to meet his maker.
I wonder what kind of Smash Bros. game could be made with two screens.
Although I know that if the homebrew community does manage to crack the DS, the PlayChoice 10 emulator will be perfect. |
Hmm... I'll go do that right now!! I never really noticed that.
What's the PlayChoice 10 emulator?
EDIT: Wow, that WAS FUN!!! I really do hope they have a Smash Bros. game on the DS. I would buy it just for that.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#21816 - tepples - Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:24 pm
Currently, MAME emulates the PC10, which consists of a 6502 based NES on the bottom and a custom Z80 based computer on the top. If the DS is cracked, somebody could probably take Foon (an emulator for another Z80 based computer), rewrite it to fit PC10's memory map, and combine it with a slightly tweaked PocketNES to make a PC10 emulator.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#22698 - DiscoStew - Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:08 am
As much as I'd like to see and play games using 2 screens for a unique experience, there will probably be some developers who (for a particular game) may not need the special features like the 2nd screen or the touch screen, but by turning off one screen and using both CPUs to process data, and displaying everything on one screen. It would make the DS act more like a much more powerful GBA with 3D acceleration, however. Still, those developers who think that the DS being less visually appealing than the PSP could maybe use this method to help a little, though it still won't match it by comparison of specs. Then again, one less used screen means more battery life.
Just a though...
_________________
DS - It's all about DiscoStew
#22712 - tepples - Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:18 pm
Depends on what Nintendo requires during lot check. Just as Sony banned 2D games during the early life of the PS1 and currently bans 2D games on the North American PS2 (forcing puzzle games and the Metal Slug series go to the Xbox), Nintendo may ban single-screen games on the DS.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#22723 - dagamer34 - Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:13 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Depends on what Nintendo requires during lot check. Just as Sony banned 2D games during the early life of the PS1 and currently bans 2D games on the North American PS2 (forcing puzzle games and the Metal Slug series go to the Xbox), Nintendo may ban single-screen games on the DS. |
What about La Pucelle Tactics on the PS2?
I don't think Nintendo would go as far as to deliberately ban games. This is going to be a very open-ended system, banning games wouldn't help them to gain recognition that the DS is just as good as any Game Boy they could have made instead. Sony however, is greedy, and could care less if 2D games go to the X-Box.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#22730 - sgeos - Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:22 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| I don't think Nintendo would go as far as to deliberately ban games. |
tepples is saying that Nintendo might not let DS games be released unless they use both screens. I could easily see that happening.
-Brendan
#22739 - PhoenixSoft - Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:37 am
Surely it would be possible to have 3D on both screens if you switch between them quickly enough. DS games apparently run at up to 60 fps, so it should be possible to run at 30 on each screen eg render a frame on one screen then a frame on the other screen etc.
#22740 - FluBBa - Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:32 pm
If I understand it correctly it wont render the polygons to a framebuffer but just put them on the screen in "realtime" through the graphics chip, just like tiles and sprites.
If that's how it works it means you can't render to 2 screens at once.
_________________
I probably suck, my not is a programmer.
#22749 - tepples - Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:19 pm
In other words, are you saying it's like the Sega Saturn's crazy way of doing 3D through rot/scale sprites?
I can't see how another 96 KB for a frame buffer can be that difficult. Even the Atari Lynx system rendered to a frame buffer using a blitter engine.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#22786 - FluBBa - Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:00 am
I won't argue about which is better, it just seem to me that's the way it works.
But we'll know about that when more info is released.
_________________
I probably suck, my not is a programmer.
#29655 - Zero - Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:35 am
YES.
in mario 64ds some of the extra minigames and the intro screen have 3d on both screens simultaneous. (try the one with the 3 marios that you have to keep bouncing up to hit the three red flying thingies)
though they never seem to have much on both screens at the same time.
and they never have a model that is across both screens. though who knows what can be done (hmmm i guess a few people do....).
though i guess they could have rendered into a sprite? or some other magic trick. heh.
#29680 - Abscissa - Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:24 pm
| Zero wrote: |
| though i guess they could have rendered into a sprite? or some other magic trick. heh. |
I haven't played Mario 64DS, but the two tricks that seem the most obvious to me would be:
1. Like you said, just pre-rendered sprites.
2. One of the screens could use software 3D.
Some other people have made mention about the possibility of more esoteric tricks like changing certain registers on an HBlank, which doesn't seem too unrealistic given how well the GBA lends itself to such tricks. But, I think we'd probably need some kind of DS equivilant to the CowBite GBA specs to really speculate any further.
#29778 - ravuya - Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:16 am
I was hoping the screen was memory-mapped so you could just render one large frame, split it into two and blit the individual halves to each display. Perhaps it can still be done, but with a software renderer instead of the hardware assistance.
_________________
Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)