#23014 - zazery - Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:55 pm
A thought that just occurred to me. The DS has more RAM to work with so it could be capable of streaming data off an server which could give birth to mmorpg similar to Graal Online but maybe not completely 3D. Would this be possible with the specs already known about the DS?
Players could connect to a central server, their player data would be saved on there and they would receive updates for the game. Chat of course would be built in and everything PC mmorpgs have.
Do publishers always use 1 write carts or could they possibly rewrite parts of the cart to update parts of the game?
Just tossing an idea out here,
Eric
#23017 - DiscoStew - Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:10 pm
I highly doubt that the DS would be able to have some sort of MMORPG unless the game never need an update. Even MMORPGs like the PS2 FFXI requires a HD because of updates. Without updates, a MMORPG would be boring as nothing new could be added. Even with 4MB of RAM, that is still not enough for a game of that gendre.
About the carts, I highly doubt that even parts of the carts other than the Save RAM (if it has that) would be rewritable.
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#23018 - dagamer34 - Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:10 pm
| zazery wrote: |
Do publishers always use 1 write carts or could they possibly rewrite parts of the cart to update parts of the game?
Just tossing an idea out here,
Eric |
How would they be able to "rewrite" parts of the cart? It's all ROM, not rewritable in any way.
Though the streaming data idea could work possibly, but it would put a lot of strain on the server. I smell a monthly fee too. :^)
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#23021 - alek - Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:34 pm
This might be a pretty dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyway :)
What does MMORPG stand for?
I think MORPG stands for Multiplayer Online RPG, if that is the case what does the first M stand for?
#23022 - DiscoStew - Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:35 pm
Maybe if the GBA slot on the DS was capable of more than 32MBytes or all the updates could fit on a 32MByte cart, perhaps updates could be on special-designed rewritable GBA flash carts that can only be updated at special downloading stations, like the iQue in China. Obviously the DS carts won't be rewritable, along with the fact that the core of the game would be on a DS cart, but this could be an option, though very unlikely.
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#23023 - DiscoStew - Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:37 pm
Massive...
Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
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#23027 - dagamer34 - Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 pm
Is there any technical limit to the size of DS carts anyway? I know that with the GBA, it has to do with the number of bus lines that the GBA has, but the DS is block addressed so does that make it any different? If so, then there really isn't any limit to the size of the carts.
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#23030 - DiscoStew - Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:45 pm
Even if the DS carts had no limit as to their size, that still doesn't change that the DS carts are ROM. It would be good for those games that don't need updates, but MMORPGs practically HAVE to be updatable.
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#23039 - dagamer34 - Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:25 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| Even if the DS carts had no limit as to their size, that still doesn't change that the DS carts are ROM. It would be good for those games that don't need updates, but MMORPGs practically HAVE to be updatable. |
I guess we'll just have MORPGs or ORPGs instead. It can't be "massive"! :)
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#23042 - sgeos - Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:23 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| I guess we'll just have MORPGs or ORPGs instead. It can't be "massive"! :) |
ORPGs as in one player online RPGs? Whats the point in that? To play net modules or some such?
-Brendan
#23047 - tepples - Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:51 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| How would they be able to "rewrite" parts of the cart? It's all ROM, not rewritable in any way. |
What makes you think that? Nintendo has hinted that unlike GBA carts, which are mask ROM, DS carts are OTP flash, possibly related to SD memory. MMORPGs (massively multiplayer online role-playing games) and other software needing updates would just not blow the fuse.
And GBA flash carts can hold more than 256 Mbits with bankswitching, but I don't think Nintendo would officially sanction GBA flash carts for piracy reasons.
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#23056 - DiscoStew - Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:40 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Nintendo has hinted that unlike GBA carts, which are mask ROM, DS carts are OTP flash, possibly related to SD memory |
Well I hope they know what they're doing. If a certain game did require rewriting to the DS cart, then wouldn't the entire cart be required to be rewritable, since a single fuse is the factor of rewriting? If that is true, then many smart people like us would just buy the game that allows rewriting, wait for a program that lets us interface the DS to the PC wirelessly, and then begin homebrew development by flashing to the cart via WIFI or whatever wireless transmission the DS has. As much as that would be good thing (though illegal) for us homebrew developers, there is that whole problem with piraters.
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#23088 - zazery - Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:44 pm
Wow I woke up this morning expecting only a few replies but there are quite a few.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Nintendo hinted at the fact that you could send someone a game you are playing so they could try it out. I was thinking of taking advantage of this and get the data from a server instead. I don't think updating graphics like tiles and sprites will work. However, suppose you have all graphics to be used in the game in the ROM and use the server to send the map data. I would think the DS would be capable of handling this. Using a server for just sending player positions and maps I don't think would put too much of a strain on the server->DS connection.
Also you're probably right, you can't have massive online games. Maybe smaller servers or something, but some company may actually manage a MMORPG. Probably pay to play like dagamer34 stated.
I know some companies made external hardware on the GBA carts such as a solar cell or GPS. It is probably possible to make a SD slot on a DS cart and store data on that, perhaps the graphics data and map data. It could be updated with the PC as long as you have a SD card reader for the PC.
This could also be done as DiscoStew mentioned with the GBA port. However this is unlikely because people wouldn't want to go somewhere to update their games.
Not all online games need to be updateable also. I'm sure if they made Grand Theft Auto for the DS it would sell simply because the players make up the environment. But for long RPG type games with stories and changing environments you would still come across the problem of having to update the game.
Tepples, couldn't you just eliminate the part of the GBA cart where it boots up or just write a loader for the first part of the memory and make it not rewrite able. This way it prevents piracy hopefully. Then again Nintendo might not want to take the risk. This is the same with DiscoStew's point about the DS cart and the homebrew. I'm thinking the best idea for them is to make a write only section of the memory, which contains boot up data with the rest of the cart rewrite able?
#23090 - DiscoStew - Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:29 pm
If the game doesn't exceed 4MBytes to transfer from one DS to another, then yes. It is just like the GBA being able to send data from one GBA to another. The difference is that the DS uses WIFI for its transfers, and the DS has 4MBytes of RAM. Perhaps games could have a 4MByte section dedicated to a demo that could be sent to another person to try out.
I guess for a MMORPG on the DS (or probably just an MORPG), as long as nothing major is changed that couldn't just be streamed everytime that it is needed, then it could be possible without a rewritable cart. Phantasy Star Online was capable of it, but that game seemed more of a dungeon hack and slash than some other online RPGs like Everquest and Ragnarok Online.
| zazery wrote: |
| It is probably possible to make a SD slot on a DS cart and store data on that, perhaps the graphics data and map data. It could be updated with the PC as long as you have a SD card reader for the PC. |
Did you mean an SD slot on a GBA cart instead? If not, then highly doubtful. The actual game cart would need to be in the slot all the time if it isn't hot-swappable like the GBA. Besides, who would want to continually swap between the actual game cart and the upgrade cart?
| zazery wrote: |
| write only section |
Probably meant to say "read only section", as a write only section is pretty useless and a waste of space.
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#23096 - zazery - Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:45 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
Probably meant to say "read only section", as a write only section is pretty useless and a waste of space. |
That's exactly what I meant. :)
| DiscoStew wrote: |
Did you mean an SD slot on a GBA cart instead? If not, then highly doubtful. The actual game cart would need to be in the slot all the time if it isn't hot-swappable like the GBA. Besides, who would want to continually swap between the actual game cart and the upgrade cart? |
No not exactly, I don't think I was to clear so I'll explain. For example the GBA has a Video player for it which you can put your CF cards in it which contain data from the PC. So what I am suggesting is an expansion slot on the DS cart just like the ones made for the GBA. I haven't seen the size of the card but some small memory sticks might make it possible. This is an example of what I mean
The games that I am thinking about are more along the line of Graal Online, the classic version, not all the new visual updates. It seems plausible to me.
#23097 - DiscoStew - Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:02 am
I understand what you mean now. Whenever I hear something like expansion of the cart, I think of the actual cart itself, not something that the cart goes into that connects into the port.
Something like that may actually be a good idea, because the DS cart would not need to be rewritable, therefore retaining all original data. Only games designed for this attachment would have code hard-coded into the DS cart, and it searches for a certain pattern of data to recognize which individual file out of multiple game files on the SD/CF card will be used for the current game being played. Heck, just being able to have a SD/CF card gives the DS an advantage for some games that let people create things, like racing tracks for a racing game, or even a complete game creating suite. Nintendo themselves actually tried doing something like that with the 64DD, so what would prevent them from trying this same thing with the DS? That would be something to see.
I would have never thought of something like that, Zazery. thx for your thoughts.
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#23105 - zazery - Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:56 pm
Yes that is what I originally thought; it gives you so many options. I had never thought of the idea of custom racetracks for racing games but with that thought it brings forth many other thoughts. Imagine creating your own levels for first person shooters or possibly upgraded weapons. If someone was to make like you suggested a system to recognize data on the SD/CF card then I hope developers would take advantage of it, at least more than the broadband adaptor was for the GCN. I don't think too many official developers would use this. Some reasons for that would be cost, unofficial, time and money to code new content. I actually think some developers would love to make a RPG just as we discussed here, however I?m pretty sure they aren?t aware of this idea to use upgradeable content.
I for one would like to see this idea developed even further by Nintendo and their third party support. Does anyone have an idea of how to bring this to Nintendo?s attention?
#23116 - dagamer34 - Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:35 pm
www.nintendo.com/contact
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#23118 - zazery - Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:46 pm
Should've gone there first, thanks. I'll write up a more formal version of my idea. I'd like to see it made a reality more than make money off it. I hope they'll forward my message to the right person.