#24738 - Marciano - Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:23 pm
Does anyone know where the homebrew GBA register specs orignally came from, and (more importantly) how long they took to be published?
I'm simply wondering how long it will be between a DS being in someone's hands to a register spec becoming available.
I don't know the genesis of the GBA register spec, but there are two alternatives: Either someone knew someone who knew someone who had an official deveopment system, or someone painstakingly disassembled games, and observed what they did and reverse engineered the register spec. That second option sounds dubious, but hey, I'm not going to say anything if you don't.
There's a lot of interest in this new platform. It would be a shame to wait 6 months for a dev system - but I'd like to get a ball-park so I can have an expectation of the wait.
Any historical accounts from the original GBA register mappers would be interesting to hear.
#24752 - keldon - Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:39 pm
The processor of a machine is often a readily available and batch produced so there are documents on the processor. From then on people tinker with their machine to get responses, and also by disassembling games.
#24761 - ampz - Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:01 am
...And leaked specs from licensed developers.
#24812 - dagamer34 - Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:53 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| ...And leaked specs from licensed developers. |
Do these developers accidentally drop them some place, or do they want the homebrew community to find out about the system?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#24820 - sgeos - Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:38 pm
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| Do these developers accidentally drop them some place, or do they want the homebrew community to find out about the system? |
I suspect that most development studios don't care it the homebrew community knows the specs as long as they (the studio) can not be held liable for the leak. One could agrue that a knowledgable homebrew community is an assest to dev studios.
When it comes to individual developers, some of them may want to help out the community, but leaking documents is a big deal. I figure that most developers do not want to risk their career to help out the community.
Nintendo doesn't want the specs out in the open. There was an article about IP protection in the latest edition of game developer magazine. Find it, read it- it's good stuff. Pay special attention to the part on trade secrets.
In short, Nintendo is going to be fussy and everyone else wants to avoid lawsuits.
-Brendan
#24823 - keldon - Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:46 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
Nintendo doesn't want the specs out in the open. There was an article about IP protection in the latest edition of game developer magazine.
-Brendan |
Great, I'll pick that one up for Free in ECTS
#24828 - dagamer34 - Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:41 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| dagamer34 wrote: | | Do these developers accidentally drop them some place, or do they want the homebrew community to find out about the system? |
I suspect that most development studios don't care it the homebrew community knows the specs as long as they (the studio) can not be held liable for the leak. One could agrue that a knowledgable homebrew community is an assest to dev studios.
When it comes to individual developers, some of them may want to help out the community, but leaking documents is a big deal. I figure that most developers do not want to risk their career to help out the community.
Nintendo doesn't want the specs out in the open. There was an article about IP protection in the latest edition of game developer magazine. Find it, read it- it's good stuff. Pay special attention to the part on trade secrets.
In short, Nintendo is going to be fussy and everyone else wants to avoid lawsuits.
-Brendan |
Kind of like what Miked does around here? And other not fully professional developers?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#24832 - tepples - Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:06 am
I haven't seen Mike leak anything that isn't already publicly leaked.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#24835 - Marciano - Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:04 am
I'm not encouraged by what I read here and what I read in another thread about access to sound on the DS.
Hardware 3D graphics implies a very complex register set to begin with. Typically programmers get nowhere near 3D registers, instead working at a 3D API layer provided by the vendor (think, DirectX or OpenGL in desktop land). Add to that the prospect of mandatory library calls to do things with sound and you're looking at a platform that Nintendo is trying to keep very closed, and a few register specs leaked here or there may not help with getting real work done.
Here's where the bar is already on the DS:
http://nintendoinsider.com/site/EpAkkuAFkZIYfqYxHf.php
I think I'll be sticking to the GBA for the forseeable future... exciting though the DS is... in principle.
#24840 - sgeos - Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:23 am
| tepples wrote: |
| I haven't seen Mike leak anything that isn't already publicly leaked. |
Mike is very careful about what he says. I suspect that is because he wants to keep his job.
-Brendan
#24842 - keldon - Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:35 am
| Marciano wrote: |
I'm not encouraged by what I read here and what I read in another thread about access to sound on the DS.
Hardware 3D graphics implies a very complex register set to begin with. Typically programmers get nowhere near 3D registers, instead working at a 3D API layer provided by the vendor (think, DirectX or OpenGL in desktop land). Add to that the prospect of mandatory library calls to do things with sound and you're looking at a platform that Nintendo is trying to keep very closed, and a few register specs leaked here or there may not help with getting real work done.
Here's where the bar is already on the DS:
http://nintendoinsider.com/site/EpAkkuAFkZIYfqYxHf.php
I think I'll be sticking to the GBA for the forseeable future... exciting though the DS is... in principle. |
But aren't you more interested in producing a killer game, rather than figuring the hardwar?
#24854 - Abscissa - Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:56 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| But aren't you more interested in producing a killer game, rather than figuring the hardwar? |
You can't make a killer game if you don't know how to program the hardware.
#24866 - sgeos - Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:40 pm
Ick. I really hate 3D. (Mecha and taxi games aside.)
| keldon wrote: |
| But aren't you more interested in producing a killer game, rather than figuring the hardwar? |
Yes. Killer games don't need 3D. Even my favorite TV programs are 2D!
-Brendan
#24869 - keldon - Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:11 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| keldon wrote: | | But aren't you more interested in producing a killer game, rather than figuring the hardwar? |
You can't make a killer game if you don't know how to program the hardware. |
no you don't. If they provide a software library it will be fine, bearing in mind that practically ALL windows programs access libraries and never the hardware directly, even intense music programs.
#24872 - Marciano - Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:20 pm
| sgeosKiller wrote: |
| games don't need 3D. |
As has happened on consoles and PCs, most games are now 3D. 2D games look antiquated.
I love 2D games. 3D doesn't ensure good games, but it's where all gaming is going (for better or worse).
That's why (as I waffled on about in the compo thread) I think the GBA as it stands today may be the last great homebrew machine.
Pity.[/quote]
#24873 - Marciano - Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:31 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| Abscissa wrote: | | keldon wrote: | | But aren't you more interested in producing a killer game, rather than figuring the hardwar? |
You can't make a killer game if you don't know how to program the hardware. |
no you don't. If they provide a software library it will be fine, bearing in mind that practically ALL windows programs access libraries and never the hardware directly, even intense music programs. |
Exactly. And where do you think you're going to get the libraries?
Three options here:
1. The libraries are all in the ROM, so all the code has to do is know the API and the calling convention. This requires hardware documentation and library documentation to fall off the back of a truck and into someones hands, so they can implement the headers and link-libraries to call the ROM.
2. The lower level drivers live in the ROM, but the higher level API is linked with the game. So we're SOL because we can't use the copyrighted, licensed Nintendo binaries.
3. Everything in linked in the application. SOL for license and copyright reasons. Same as #2.
Unlike the GBA, where every bit of data on a cart is produced by the community (except for the Nintendo logo, which is just a key to get the cart to work), the DS may be unusable without proprietary licenced and copyrighted SDK libraries.
If someone on this board is a DS licensee, or knows one, could they at least give us a clue about how tight the binding is between the game application itself and any link-time proprietary libraries?
#24895 - Zero - Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:01 am
3d rocks, 2d is awesome. really depends on the game mechanics though.
I doubt nintendo would have the 3d stuff in say bios function calls. It would probably be a linkable library so they can offer new features in the future, and any bugs in the 3d api can be fixed instead of worked around. I don't think it would be that hard to write an opengl implementation after someone figures out the registers. then joe coder who doesn't like touching the hardware can just use the insanely documented opengl calls.
if someone gives me the info on the registers i'll bloody write an opengl like api for the ds. (opengl is weird license, go see Mesa3d website).
and if your just going to stay on the gba for a while the ds could be used as a gba with 2 screens and a touchpad. so why?
zerogl 8)
#24896 - tepples - Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:15 am
| Zero wrote: |
| I don't think it would be that hard to write an opengl implementation after someone figures out the registers. |
Then why hasn't a Free implementation of the OpenGL API for Linux for PlayStation 2 progressed more quickly? If there were one, then users of (say) StepMania would appreciate it.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#24899 - Marciano - Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:46 am
| Zero wrote: |
I don't think it would be that hard to write an opengl implementation after someone figures out the registers.
if someone gives me the info on the registers i'll bloody write an opengl like api for the ds. |
Dude. Seriously. You either:
a) Are working for/have worked for NVIDIA/ATI/SGI or a similar 3D hardware manufacturer and have tons of experience working with register level 3D and developing low-level drivers and APIs, and would be a perfect choice for this project if given a suitable register spec to work from.
b) Have no clue.
I don't know you, so I'll assume (a). Welcome on board. I look forward to your efforts.
#24932 - Boltnews - Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:18 pm
Does anyone know how much the DS Development kit is from Nintendo?
#24942 - dagamer34 - Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:15 pm
| Marciano wrote: |
| Zero wrote: | I don't think it would be that hard to write an opengl implementation after someone figures out the registers.
if someone gives me the info on the registers i'll bloody write an opengl like api for the ds. |
Dude. Seriously. You either:
a) Are working for/have worked for NVIDIA/ATI/SGI or a similar 3D hardware manufacturer and have tons of experience working with register level 3D and developing low-level drivers and APIs, and would be a perfect choice for this project if given a suitable register spec to work from.
b) Have no clue.
I don't know you, so I'll assume (a). Welcome on board. I look forward to your efforts. |
Lol. That's a nice way to make friends... :)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#24943 - tepples - Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:24 pm
| Boltnews wrote: |
| Does anyone know how much the DS Development kit is from Nintendo? |
First you have to get licensed, which means getting hired by a licensed publisher, which in turn usually means you have to have been involved with the development of a top-selling video game on an open handheld platform such as Palm, Pocket PC, or Java phones.
Then I'm guessing about 10K USD.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#24973 - Zero - Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:47 am
whoa..... no i am new (jun 2003) to gba dev and as new as anybody who is unlicensed to the ds. but i have coded pc demos (try http://www.scene.org) for a while (1993) though never released any (not the best demos). and 3d is not that hard, understanding the way the ds regs works might be difficult but after they are understood an opengl implementation wouldn't be so hard.
so as i mentioned above i will write one as soon as someone figures out the regs.
#25014 - ector - Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:26 am
And if nobody else succeeds in writing a homebrew 3D API, I will probably give it a shot :P
(I reverse engineered almost the entire gamecube 3d chip through various means, so I think I'm qualified ;) )
#25031 - dagamer34 - Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:36 pm
| ector wrote: |
And if nobody else succeeds in writing a homebrew 3D API, I will probably give it a shot :P
(I reverse engineered almost the entire gamecube 3d chip through various means, so I think I'm qualified ;) ) |
I think so too! :)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25042 - lordmetroid - Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:24 pm
Why wouldn't there be a reason Nintendo has done with 3D stuff like they have done with the GBA tile and 2D capabilities, using the HW for polygons like the GBA uses the HW for sprites and tiles...
_________________
*Spam*
Open Solutions for an open mind, www.areta.org
Areta is an organization of coders codeing mostly open source project, but there is alot of sections like GBA dev, Language learning communities, RPG communities, etc...
#25451 - mr_schmoe - Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:02 am
I've seen something like this before but not to this extent. I mean, going on a tangent away from the original subject a few posts down is one thing. But, not a single post since the first one has even attempted to answer the question. Of course we would all agree that it would have to be some time before we can actually get our hands dirty; the game system isn't even out yet. But Marciano just wanted to get an idea of when that might be. I would speculate that it should take a least a year before we can get a good working emulator for the system. And that would probably be the same for an SDK. But nobody else made that kind of speculation. A few made comments on what is in stake to get leaked info, but after that a person reading that this thread would received no more information on the subject. In fact, I think it was Marciano himself that first introduced a different subject line when he talked about that game from the german developer. Oh well, like I said I've seen stuff like that before but I just had to comment on this one. Thanks for reading my ramble.
_________________
How many boards could the Mongols hoard, if the Mongol Hored got bored
#25472 - dagamer34 - Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:42 pm
I remember Miked0801 saying something about it could be around 1.5 years before we get out own code running on the system, assuming there even is a way to do so.
But then again, the DS hasn't even been released and there is little new info on it. Heck, I don't even think developers have the final model in their hands yet! It's just too early to say anything.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25663 - Miked0801 - Thu Aug 26, 2004 7:18 pm
yep. give it a month or so and real info, specs, etc. will start becoming available to all.
#25979 - SimonB - Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:08 pm
OR one could try to buy DS dev kits from Acclaim :P
Anyone know who ended up with InterPlay's DS dev stuff?
Oh and I noticed that IntSys has posted 'some' info on the IS-NITRO-DEBUGGER and IS-NITRO-WRITER (gang writer):
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.intsys.co.jp%2Ftools%2Fnitro%2Findex.html&lp=ja_en
Simon
#25980 - dagamer34 - Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:21 pm
lol, Acclaim. :D
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#26006 - Miked0801 - Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:22 am
I did a few games for them in the past. Not the easiest people to work with, but not the worst by far. Just got too top heavy and lost focus on game development. I predict EA will either do this or will splinter a (quite a) few years down the road as they are having foucs issues as well.
#26007 - Abscissa - Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:31 am
| Miked0801 wrote: |
| as they are having foucs issues as well. |
*cough* EA Trax *cough*
In seriousness, though, I've lost a lot of faith in EA over the last few years. They seem to have long abandoned the values and vision they were founded on. I totally agree with your predictions on them.
#26038 - ampz - Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:39 pm
#29625 - wbochar - Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:09 pm
Maybe the GC has more in common with DS? If Nintendo was smart, they'd make the DS<->GC libs very similar. Then all those GC games (and licencees) can do easy ports. So if you got bagged with the GC licence at the end of the line, at least you might be saved some startup time.