#25086 - Tsunami - Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:52 pm
POGO Shell on the GBA was great, but now that there is more space, why not have Linux on the DS? It would be great, then we could have web browsing, IRC, email, NES emulation, SNES emulation, MP3's, pictures, some short low res video, all on the go! I know there is speculation of built in PDA like functionality -- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/12/nintendo_ds_comms/ -- and instant messaging, but it would all be even better with a Linex distro on the DS. So what do you guys think the chances are that some group will try to get Linux on the DS?
Last edited by Tsunami on Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total
#25089 - Abscissa - Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:27 pm
| Tsunami wrote: |
| So what do you guys think the chances are that some group will try to get Linux on the DS? |
Definately. The Linux croud loves getting it ported to any and every platform, especially embedded/portable systems. I'm certain some people will try to get it going, and will probably succeed (if they don't end up running into problems with the 3D hardware as has been mentioned in another thread.) There's probably people already planning it.
#25095 - dagamer34 - Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Anything is possible once certain hurdles have been jumped. Of course, nothing will happen until the most important hurdle appears; the system being released. :)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25103 - MumblyJoe - Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:13 am
Yeah, definately. I remember somebody even attempting to nun a cut down *nix on the gba, never found out if they succeeded though. I agree with dagamer34, maybe once it actually gets released we may see it...
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#25109 - bahnhof - Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:43 am
Please don't ruin another fine piece of hardware! Those guys, (you know.. with the beards and stuff, and those action figures on their shelves and no social life) have dedicated their 'lives' to make a highly overrated operating system run on almost any piece of hardware they can find. Fortunately they do have one friend, an inflatable penguin called Tux.
I'm overreacting of course, but it's about time that people understand that porting Linux isn't innovative in any way. For instance take the gamecube port, I highly respect the reverse engineering process on the way with the porting of Linux, but who's ever going to use it?
Ah well, port it if you really want to, but it really isn't a GREAT IDEA at all.
#25111 - ampz - Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:16 am
I agree.
The big fat Linux kernel is only good for one thing on small systems: Wasting memory.
#25114 - Tsunami - Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:41 am
I'm not saying to embed it as firmware in the DS, I'm talking about dumping it on a blank DS card, kind of like Knoppix (a 'live' linux distro, you don't instal it). I wasn't saying it would be innnovative, but it would be a nice convieniance and alternative to a PDA - with extras. And since the linux would be held entirely on the DS card, you wouldn't have to mod the DS at all. It would just be a good way to expand the role of you DS, just like POGO Shell expanded the role of many peoples GBA.
#25132 - Abscissa - Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:24 am
| bahnhof wrote: |
Please don't ruin another fine piece of hardware! Those guys, (you know.. with the beards and stuff, and those action figures on their shelves and no social life) have dedicated their 'lives' to make a highly overrated operating system run on almost any piece of hardware they can find. Fortunately they do have one friend, an inflatable penguin called Tux.
I'm overreacting of course, but it's about time that people understand that porting Linux isn't innovative in any way. For instance take the gamecube port, I highly respect the reverse engineering process on the way with the porting of Linux, but who's ever going to use it?
Ah well, port it if you really want to, but it really isn't a GREAT IDEA at all. |
Heheh :) I agree with your points. But the main benefit they get out of those ports is not to have something that's worth using, they just do it to have more fodder for their "OMG our OS rulez! Take that M$!!1!1" crusade.
#25133 - sgeos - Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:36 am
| bahnhof wrote: |
| but who's ever going to use it? |
My older half brother was a *nix system admin. I've heard some freaky stories about dreamcasts runing linux and such sitting in closets at big companies doing "naughty" things. Those people are crazy...
-Brendan
#25148 - ector - Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:51 pm
What are you going to do with Linux on 4MB of system RAM? Load mozilla, or even xchat? No way.
#25150 - NoMis - Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:12 pm
| bahnhof wrote: |
Please don't ruin another fine piece of hardware! Those guys, (you know.. with the beards and stuff, and those action figures on their shelves and no social life) have dedicated their 'lives' to make a highly overrated operating system run on almost any piece of hardware they can find. Fortunately they do have one friend, an inflatable penguin called Tux.
I'm overreacting of course, but it's about time that people understand that porting Linux isn't innovative in any way. For instance take the gamecube port, I highly respect the reverse engineering process on the way with the porting of Linux, but who's ever going to use it?
Ah well, port it if you really want to, but it really isn't a GREAT IDEA at all. |
You can use it as a cheap webserver or to play videos from your computer.
| ector wrote: |
| What are you going to do with Linux on 4MB of system RAM? Load mozilla, or even xchat? No way. |
You may use that as a Web Server to ^_^
NoMis
#25153 - ampz - Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:00 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
| You can use it as a cheap webserver or to play videos from your computer. |
Yeah, but when you have loaded the linux kernel and some linux webserver, there is no space left for the web pages. Why would you need linux just to make a webserver out of it? There are plenty of OS-free small TCP/IP stacks to choose from.
And the second thing... Play videos? I don't see how linux would be of much help doing that.
#25156 - NoMis - Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:29 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| NoMis wrote: | | You can use it as a cheap webserver or to play videos from your computer. |
Yeah, but when you have loaded the linux kernel and some linux webserver, there is no space left for the web pages. Why would you need linux just to make a webserver out of it? There are plenty of OS-free small TCP/IP stacks to choose from.
And the second thing... Play videos? I don't see how linux would be of much help doing that. |
You'r right but it's still a possibility with the web server.
I can play Videos with MPlayer over the Network filesystem. Sure i could do it over TV Out but my pc is old and crappy and has no TV out. Besides my GC is connected to the LAN anyways so i don't have to by an extra cable to connect my PC to the TV. And i don't have to walk away from my TV to put in another Video.
I just remeber another thing that might be possible. You can play games through an emulator directly on the GC. Like a free Gameboy Player, or old DOS Games. Or PS1 might even be possible, imagine Rige Racer on your Cube! ^_^
NoMis
#25158 - tepples - Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:08 pm
Don't get too excited about thinking about Dreamcast style uses for your GameCube. Until you can write its media, you still need to buy PSO and dedicate a PC to get it to work.
_________________
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#25160 - NoMis - Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:15 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Don't get too excited about thinking about Dreamcast style uses for your GameCube. Until you can write its media, you still need to buy PSO and dedicate a PC to get it to work. |
I already have a PC and a Copy of PSO since it's a great game.
#25167 - tepples - Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:23 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | Until you can write its media, you still need to buy PSO and dedicate a PC to get it to work. |
I already have a PC |
What happens when the PC-based server software required to feed the GameCube lags whatever else you're running on the PC?
| Quote: |
| and a Copy of PSO since it's a great game. |
MechAssault, the exploit game for the Xbox, is now in the bargain bin. On the other hand, PSO for GameCube costs $50+ on eBay. Not everybody can afford this plus the monthly fees, and not everybody is into online RPGs.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#25183 - NoMis - Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:14 pm
Your right if you think it's not worth the effort cause there won't be much people actually using it. But it is usable in some circumstances and if they want to do that kind of stuff in their spare time, then why not?
NoMis
#25186 - dagamer34 - Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:55 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
Your right if you think it's not worth the effort cause there won't be much people actually using it. But it is usable in some circumstances and if they want to do that kind of stuff in their spare time, then why not?
NoMis |
The journey is part of the fun
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25189 - Zero - Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:36 pm
porting the linux kernel to the ds will probably happen just because of how cool it would be,
though completely useless... like back 5-8 years ago the 386 linux/apache webserver that was powered completely by potatoes. (that system also had 4mb of ram). i think with wireless network, decent graphics and a pointer device it would make a passible X server, bit more usable then the X server watches to i'de imagine. Then you could use a real computer hidden in some closet ram/cpu to draw on the DS screen over the wireless network. still completely useless BUT MASSIVELY COOL. and it has enough resources to run an embedded 2.6 kernel.
#25193 - Tsunami - Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:49 am
Sure it might be somewhat useless to some, but I would find it pretty usefull, and very cool. Even to my non-geek friends it would be quite a bragging right simply because of the added usefullness. 4MB of ram is more than enough to use IRC, a web browser, and an email client - even if the browser is strictly text, it would still be very handy. Besides, its not like the thing would use KDE or Gnome, you could do allot with 4MB of ram, a custom kernal, and a more or less command line only interface.
Zero: thats a great idea of using the DS as a portable monitor and interface for a computer in the closet. Props.
#25201 - ampz - Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:41 pm
Zero: The 386 potatoe server was fake.
#25206 - Zero - Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:53 pm
your right ampz...
i have spent the last 3 years fooled!!!!!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/05/26/net_community_goes_spud_crazy/
still linux on the potato powered ds would rock.
#25217 - ampz - Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:32 pm
You would need _alot_ of potatoes to power the DS.
However, I can build you a small low power webserver capable of running on a bunch of potatoes, if you really want one.
#25218 - Zero - Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:38 pm
no thx, i currently live in idaho i am sick of potatos.....
;)
#25236 - Tsunami - Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:08 am
Idaho brand instant mashed potato's are gross...
#25306 - toki_the_collector - Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:47 am
i think instant potatos taste good
add more milk and less water
try velveta shells and cheese with canned chicken in it
running a web server would be expensive on a deticated ds
how about a garage sale gba with a mini stack and a lan connection to a wireless hub
http://www.fivemouse.com/gba/
#25425 - nathan - Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:29 pm
I'm sorry but guys with the new 2.6 kernel Linux is more optimized for embedded systems than ever before. If you have been reading any kind of tech news, you'll see the trend starting to pick up. I think it would be great to have a non proprietary OS on my DS that would be awesome. I love nintendo and I think the DS would be a great solution to all my wardriving needs. Also with wifi why limit yourself to what Nintendo thinks you should do with it. If you have the hardware to do more interesting and exciting things why try and do the same old crap?
I want to play some F-Zero then drop into a terminal and IM my buddies from a local wifi hotspot. Maybe some place nice, like in the shade of a tree a few yards away from a starbucks :).
It's also interesting to me that WinS is being developed for the GBA, what's the point there? Perhaps the most recent open source tools aren't small enough to run efficiently on a GBA but with the DS we will have all that stuff ready and waiting if we can embed linux. Why rewrite when you can reuse? Isn't that the programmers creed? Or just mine?
Hey and then once we get linux running on the DS maybe more people will get excited about hardware mods for the DS. It would be trivial for the developers in the Linux comunity to start banging out awesome stuff for what looks to be an awesome system. Why fear open source? You don't have to play if you don't want to.
#25450 - Zero - Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:52 am
FEAR THE PENGUINS! Actually that is exactly what i was thinking 2.6 with some of the embbedded features turned on would work. (I only use linux when developing for the GBA)
#25462 - toki_the_collector - Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:22 pm
how much space would you need to fit linux on a ds or gba
32+ mb
http://www.nintendo.com/ds/overview.jsp
| Quote: |
Dual Slots: Nintendo DS makes a vast library of Game Boy? Advance games readily available. Developers could find ways to make new connections between GBA games and DS games. The GBA port could be used for new hardware, enormously expanding the functional expandability of the DS.
|
or maybe more?
http://www.gbacd.tk/
#25473 - SmileyDude - Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:42 pm
| toki_the_collector wrote: |
| how much space would you need to fit linux on a ds or gba |
I used to run Linux on a 386 with 8 megs of RAM (later 16) just fine. It was a tad slow, but what do you expect from a 386?
As far as a distro sizes go, I ran for the longest time a distro called LRP (Linux Router Project) that booted off of a floppy and ran completely out of RAM on a 486 with 16megs of RAM. That's pretty compact.
You don't need much hardware to get Linux to do something useful. The DS should have plenty of hardware for Linux.
_________________
dennis
#25486 - Zero - Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:32 pm
My first experience with linux was Slackware (with an old 2.0.x kernel) on my 486 sx 25mhz 4mb ram, 120mb harddrive.
The ds outperforms this machine in everyway but ram, which it matches. A small DS linux distro would easily fit on the card, especially after all the work that has been done to make an linux more embeddable. But lets get something else to work on the card first ;).
#25489 - dagamer34 - Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:50 am
Before we have "Linux on DS" let's first have "Homebrew Code on DS".
And before we have "Homebrew Code on DS" we are going to need "Leaked Documents about the DS that came out of nowhere so nobody gets into trouble" :)
Of course, it would be nice to have a DS too, don't you think?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25493 - Fleet-C - Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:51 am
There is already a leacked SDK, altough not widely available.
The person who has it has made two documents, one about the nitro rom file structure and another about memory map. I guess that's a good start, and untill we don't get another one, we really can't find the possible watermarks. Altough those two files have been altered and are subsequently "watermark free".
A lot o people have already seen them, but for those that haven't here as some exemples :
DS Memory Map
-------------
ITCM: 0x01ff8000 - 0x01ffffff
Main memory: 0x02000000 - 0x02400000
Main ext: 0x02000000 - 0x02800000
WRAM: 0x037f8000 - 0x037fffff
I/O regs: 0x04000000 - 0x05000000
BG Palette: 0x05000000 - 0x05000200
OBJ Pal: 0x05000200 - 0x05000400
DB BG Pal: 0x05000400 - 0x05000600
DB OBJ Pal: 0x05000600 - 0x05000800
BG VRAM: 0x06000000 - 0x06080000
DB BG VRAM: 0x06200000 - 0x06220000
OBJ VRAM: 0x06400000 - 0x06440000
DB OBJ VRAM: 0x06600000 - 0x06620000
LCDC VRAM: 0x06800000 - 0x068A0000
OAM: 0x07000000 - 0x07000400
DB OAM: 0x07000400 - 0x07000800
Cart ROM: 0x08000000 - 0x0A000000
Cart RAM: 0x0A000000 - 0x0A010000
BIOS: 0xFFFF0000 - 0xFFFF8000
(Reset vector at start of BIOS)
Data Format
A NitroROM file has the following constituents.
Header: 16KB of management stuff.
Startup static blocks: Modules for the Main and Sub systems that are loaded and executed on startup.
File name table: Array associating file names with numbers.
Overlay header: Links for main and sub systems between file numbers and overlay IDs.
File allocation table: Array of file numbers and ROM positions.
File Images: Take a guess what these do.
A file or directory name must follow these rules.
Maximum length of 127 single-byte characters.
Case-sensitive filenames. (Speeds up the read process)
Entries with the same file name within the same directory are not allowed. The check for this is done at the time of compilation of the file system; hence, case sensitivity is ignored when this comparison is made.
File name characters may only take values within the range of ASCII 0x20-0x7E, except the characters \/?"<>*:;|
Any file entries that are in the same directory are arranged in successive order, and as such get successive IDs. After a directory entry, and after the last file in a directory, a file entry of length 0 and name "\0" is entered.
Example filesystem
/Nitro.rom
/l33t.dat
/img/sprite.png
I hope I'm not going against the rules, those are just examples though. The mods are free to delete everything that they judge inapropriate. (Obviously mr obvious...)
#25498 - dagamer34 - Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:52 am
We'll have to see what the mods think of that. Of course, commercial developers should stay away from this thread now. The temptation of confirming or denying any of this info would be too much.
Where did you get this info? Give me a general idea, so you don't get people into trouble.
**saves this page** :)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25538 - toki_the_collector - Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:41 pm
ill admit i'm new to adresses
but is that saying roughly
4 megs main ram
8 megs extended ram
and
only 64k cart ram ......would you expect that to be flash?
what is itcm?
#25547 - Zero - Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:38 pm
uh no. those are addresses to hardware registers on the ds. the arm chip doesn't have a seperate io/mem bus (like x86) so the io ports reside in memory. they look very similar to the gba also.