#28422 - mymateo - Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:01 am
I read some early specs that said the DS would only be capable of 3D graphics on one screen at a time. Since then, I've seen some screenshots (no videos, just stills) that would suggest 3D is possible on both screens.
My theories:
(1) One screen is pre-rendered with the 3D hardware and kept as a still image on one screen, while the second screen has real-time 3D.
(2) The DS has enough VRAM and is capable of moving it fast enough to render simpler 3D scenes (60,000 polys) at, I dunno, 30 FPS. It renders to the buffer and flips it onto the screens like a bitmapped mode.
(3) It's all in my mind, or I'm just too hopeful.
Does anyone have any insight or information that can confirm or deny my theories? Just thought I'd ask!
#28432 - Fatnickc - Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:36 am
Sorry if I'm wrong, butI thought it could handle 3d on both screens anyway...
#28433 - Abscissa - Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:44 am
| Fatnickc wrote: |
| Sorry if I'm wrong, butI thought it could handle 3d on both screens anyway... |
Yes, it can have 3d on either of the screens, but not both screens at the same time.
But I'm sure there's ways of getting around that and making it *seem* like there's more than that going on. (One prerendered, one realtime. Or one hardware, one software. etc.)
#28435 - Fatnickc - Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:50 am
Pac man game. trackball on bottom screen, 3d world on top.
At E3..
probably pre-rendered.. Thanks rare ;)..
#28439 - mymateo - Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:36 am
Yeah, the pac-man demo is a good example. Also, Rayman looks like it may have two 3D screens at the same time.
#28446 - zazery - Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:35 pm
One that seemed pretty obvious to me was the Pikachu demo. Pikachu was on both screens at once in 3D, on the bottom screen there was even a 3D fish. It seemed possible to have 3D on both screens. You could use an interrupt to swap the 3D control and render on the other screen maybe. I think 3D will be possible on both screens, programmers will find a way.
#28449 - Fatnickc - Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:51 pm
Metroid prime demo, what seems like her spread across 2 screens, looking the same on both screens (allbe-them different images).
#28451 - Miked0801 - Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:51 pm
3D on 2 screens == GBC could render 4000+ colors on one screen with same technique.
#28452 - Abscissa - Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:59 pm
| Fatnickc wrote: |
| Metroid prime demo, what seems like her spread across 2 screens, looking the same on both screens (allbe-them different images). |
That was 100% prerendered on both screens. It was just playing back a video.
We already discussed this before: http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=4074
#28457 - mymateo - Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:43 pm
Heh... if the DS could render images like THAT in real-time 3D, I don't think any of us would have to worry about the PSP taking over!
#28491 - FluBBa - Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:11 pm
| Miked0801 wrote: |
| 3D on 2 screens == GBC could render 4000+ colors on one screen with same technique. |
Hblank DMA... You render every other line on each display? Or does it actually use a framebuffer? I know you can't talk much about it but... =)
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#28530 - Mr. Ploppy - Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:38 am
| zazery wrote: |
| One that seemed pretty obvious to me was the Pikachu demo. Pikachu was on both screens at once in 3D, on the bottom screen there was even a 3D fish. It seemed possible to have 3D on both screens. You could use an interrupt to swap the 3D control and render on the other screen maybe. I think 3D will be possible on both screens, programmers will find a way. |
I've asked before, and I'll ask again; Can you post a link to a screenshot or video that shows this phenomenon?
I saw the E3 video of this game. Yes, it showed a pikachu running from one screen to the other, but it never appeared on both screens at once. It removed itself entirely from the first screen before entering the second.
Judging from the video, here's my best guess as to how this effect was achieved; The grass and background are pre-rendered, and displayed as a static background. The pikachu is then drawn over top by the 3D chip. Despite the fact that both screens appear to have 3D backgrounds, and pikachu appears to move effortlessly between the two, the DS can only display 3D on one screen at any given time. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors.
| FluBBa wrote: |
| Miked0801 wrote: | | 3D on 2 screens == GBC could render 4000+ colors on one screen with same technique. |
Hblank DMA... You render every other line on each display? Or does it actually use a framebuffer? I know you can't talk much about it but... =) |
You're close. The GBC is a little before my time, I didn't really start programming untill it was pretty much on it's deathbed. But I believe the technique Mike is alluding to is palette manipulation during the Hblank. It was good for displaying high-colour static images on the GBC, although the actual number was closer to 2500. Of course the GBA is powerfull enough to do video with this technique, and so is DS. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but Mike wasn't letting slip any great secret (he want's to keep his job), he was saying 3D on both screens is likely pre-rendered.
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#28537 - Fleet-C - Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:47 pm
May I add that in pac n roll, there is REAL 3D on both screens, the actual game on top and a 3D ball on the touch screen, the thing is, it's really just a ball, there might be enought power to spare some to do basic 3d stuff on the seconde screen, or cutting the frame rate in half and doing it on both. Anyway, the things I read point to the DS NOT having a frame buffer. In the end, what should be expected is 3D on one screen and 2D on the other.
#28540 - zazery - Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:09 pm
| Mr. Ploppy wrote: |
I've asked before, and I'll ask again; Can you post a link to a screenshot or video that shows this phenomenon?
|
I know I could be wrong but here in this movie at 4:19, if you watch for a few seconds you see Pikachu fish on the top screen and then the fish is sent to the bottom screen and Pikachu dances in the distance, while the fish is moving.
I could be wrong though, since the rest of the Pikachu demo needed him to completely vanish from one screen and appear on the other.
#28596 - mymateo - Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:26 am
| Mr. Ploppy wrote: |
| I've asked before, and I'll ask again; Can you post a link to a screenshot or video that shows this phenomenon? |
Um... I'm sorry, I looked for where you've asked this "before", but was unable to find it in this topic... If you asked, it must have been in another topic. So apologies if nobody answered your request...
But, it seems zazery answered your request, so I guess I don't need to. But I will anyways! Besides, that's what this topic is about :) - discussing whether it was possible for 3D on two screens at once.
Go to gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com), go to Feel the Magic: XY/XX and look at the movie Official Trailor 1, and at 1:15, you can see the girl lean towards the screen. Up until that point, you can tell which screen was 2D, but at that point both screens look like they were done in 3D. Sorry, I can't post a link to it (you need to be signed in to download it), and you need to go to their site to watch it streamed. Here's the link for the site, hopefully works:
http://www.gamespot.com/ds/adventure/kiminotamenarashineru/index.html?q=feel+the+magic
If not, just search for the game, it'll come up. Thanks for your input everyone!
#28599 - LOst? - Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:50 am
Here's what I believe for now.
There are two screens, and one rendertarget split in half. So simple. It draws the same rendertarget buffer over both screens. The screens aren't that big you know. So why two screens instead of one large screen? Well, Nokia N-gage has that 90 degree screen size that no one seemed to love.
#28631 - Mr. Ploppy - Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:00 pm
| mymateo wrote: |
| Um... I'm sorry, I looked for where you've asked this "before", but was unable to find it in this topic... If you asked, it must have been in another topic. So apologies if nobody answered your request... |
Yes, it was in another topic. Believe me, this isn't the first time we've discussed this! ;)
Zazery, I'm currently downloading that video you posted. The short one goes bad about halfway through, so I'm downloading the larger one. But at 32 MB it may take a while for my slow Telus dial-up connection to do the job. I'm also going to check out mymateo's link.
Oh, and just FYI LOst?, The DS doesn't use a framebuffer of any sort. the 3d is rendered directly to the LCD in question. On BG0 if I'm not mistaken.
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#28683 - FluBBa - Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:19 pm
| LOst? wrote: |
| There are two screens, and one rendertarget split in half. |
Allmost... You can probably switch which screen that should be doing 3D halfway, so you can probably have the bottom of the first screen and the top of the second screen doing 3D at the same time =)
_________________
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#28814 - Miked0801 - Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:21 pm
Wow, it's nice to see someone who knew the GBC - thought I was by myself here. I loved programming for that system - you could push it so far! My favorite game I ever did for it was Harry Potter Chamber of Secrets. That really pushed the hardware! We had to dynamically speed up the music as hi-color stuff ate CPU. And you are completely correct on the colors, it was 4 palettes changed per scan line using self modifying code (op code ld hl, (n), byte at 3 cycles per) gives 2560 colors with a sprites and original colors thrown in.
Sorry to off-topic, but that system was fun (as limited as it was!)
#28832 - Mr. Ploppy - Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:30 am
Yes, I find working on a limited system to be quite enjoyable. The challenge of trying to get around those limitations is half of the fun. But as I said before, I didn't really move into programming untill the GBC was at the end of it's lifecycle. However, when someone finally get's the bright idea to make a watch with Gameboy-like abillitys, I'll be the first in line program for it. :)
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#28847 - tepples - Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:02 pm
Or you could code for the Game King once that's fully cracked. You'll be working with a 6 MHz 6502 processor, a dumb frame buffer of 48x32 pixels in 4-level grayscale, and carts 128 KB in size.
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-- Who?
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#28855 - keldon - Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:36 pm
And there's always that texas calculator with a Z80 processor, and sprite capabilities if I believe correctly.
#28940 - Fleet-C - Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:25 pm
Speaking about the game king, I saw one on sale today and for curiosity's sake, bought it. (20 euros).
I took some pictures with my cellphone, here is the "pack" :
http://joao-gomes.spymac.net/gameking.zip
edit : WOW, I just found out there was a game king 2!!!
http://timetopcn.com/newproduct.asp?id=109
#28944 - DiscoStew - Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:24 am
Is it just me, or does the Game King look like an odd GBA, and the Game King 2 looks like an odd PSP without the extra buttons/screen width? There is just too much resemblance. There isn't any form of copyright on hardware/casing design, is there?
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#28952 - allenu - Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:57 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| Is it just me, or does the Game King look like an odd GBA, and the Game King 2 looks like an odd PSP without the extra buttons/screen width? There is just too much resemblance. There isn't any form of copyright on hardware/casing design, is there? |
Yup, it looks like a PSP! You know, I've never heard of anyone getting sued for copying the look and feel of physical device. I've heard it done with respect to GUIs, but not physical devices. Anyone seen anything like that occur? Granted, it is kind of cheap and unoriginal to just flat out copy somebody else's design, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
#28956 - Abscissa - Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:41 am
| allenu wrote: |
| Yup, it looks like a PSP! You know, I've never heard of anyone getting sued for copying the look and feel of physical device. I've heard it done with respect to GUIs, but not physical devices. Anyone seen anything like that occur? Granted, it is kind of cheap and unoriginal to just flat out copy somebody else's design, but I don't see anything wrong with it. |
There's a lot of lawsuits tossed around by people that already know they don't have a case. It's used as a business tactic. Hasbro Interactive, for example, did that when sueing a bunch of budget game developers with the intention of drowning them in legal fees to force a settlement. For the most part it worked; only one of the companies they sued held out until Hasbro Interactive was sold to Infogrames. And Nintendo is known for having some iffy lawsuits as well. Unless the book "Game Over" is inaccurate, Howard Lincoln is one heck of a lawsuit-happy sob. Come to think of it, I think he admitted it in an interview once.