#29648 - allenu - Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:22 am
Argh, anybody else really anxious to start writing stuff for the DS? It's sitting on my desk and I want to start hacking code for it!!
#29649 - tepples - Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:48 am
Brush up on your OpenGL in the meantime to become acquainted with 3D concepts that you'll be using heavily if and when a DS copier becomes available to the public.
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#29654 - Krakken - Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:04 am
Does it actually use open GL then? I haven't delved much into OpenGL but i'm pretty up to scratch with DirectX.
#29779 - ravuya - Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:18 am
| Krakken wrote: |
| Does it actually use open GL then? I haven't delved much into OpenGL but i'm pretty up to scratch with DirectX. |
Nah, it doesn't use OGL but the theory is sound. I've been flipping through Tricks of the 3D Game Programming Gurus in order to try setting up my own software renderer.
I'm not buying a DS until there's a port of DevKitAdvance or something, though. Or at least until Zookeeper DS comes out. :)
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#29795 - benjamin - Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:10 am
I am not clear yet on how the 3d is being done but I do not get the feeling it is being done through software, at least not based on looking at the registers. Its definitely not double buffered so I am not sure how a software renderer is going to be much use other than as a demo project to show its done. It will surely be slower than using the onboard 3d hardware.
#29803 - maigo_kodaa - Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:16 am
The DS is using an OGL -like 3D api....supposedly a cinch if you're already an OGL veteran.
#29826 - dj-ceejay - Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:59 pm
http://nehe.gamedev.net
Has a set of excellent tutorials. Highly recommended.
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#29832 - FluBBa - Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:12 pm
| maigo_kodaa wrote: |
| The DS is using an OGL -like 3D api.... |
And this API is located in the BIOS or is it just some library that Nintendo supply to you?
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#29837 - allenu - Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:33 pm
| FluBBa wrote: |
| maigo_kodaa wrote: | | The DS is using an OGL -like 3D api.... |
And this API is located in the BIOS or is it just some library that Nintendo supply to you? |
That's what I'm wondering as well. Surely it's a software-layer API that hooks into the 3D hardware? Oh wait, is there actual 3D hardware on this thing or are the CPUs used for rendering?
#29848 - benjamin - Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:59 pm
| maigo_kodaa wrote: |
| The DS is using an OGL -like 3D api....supposedly a cinch if you're already an OGL veteran. |
Not that I am challenging you, but where is this shown? If this is true, then what is the point of having registers that relate to 3d matrices? I think if it is a software library then we are all screwed, because obviously that library is copyrighted. If it is hardware, then we are fine. Now if it is software and yet we can still get at all of that hardware that the software library is wrapping, then we are fine as well. Although it suggests a certain degree of complexity that Nintendo wasn't even willing to push onto commercial developers.
I think things are fuzzier than ever at this point.
#29849 - allenu - Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:06 pm
| benjamin wrote: |
Not that I am challenging you, but where is this shown? If this is true, then what is the point of having registers that relate to 3d matrices? I think if it is a software library then we are all screwed, because obviously that library is copyrighted. If it is hardware, then we are fine. Now if it is software and yet we can still get at all of that hardware that the software library is wrapping, then we are fine as well. Although it suggests a certain degree of complexity that Nintendo wasn't even willing to push onto commercial developers.
|
I'm hoping they have a on-board ROM that has the 3D libraries on it so that you don't have to code them up yourself or license the libraries yourself.
#29858 - benjamin - Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:56 am
| allenu wrote: |
| benjamin wrote: | Not that I am challenging you, but where is this shown? If this is true, then what is the point of having registers that relate to 3d matrices? I think if it is a software library then we are all screwed, because obviously that library is copyrighted. If it is hardware, then we are fine. Now if it is software and yet we can still get at all of that hardware that the software library is wrapping, then we are fine as well. Although it suggests a certain degree of complexity that Nintendo wasn't even willing to push onto commercial developers.
|
I'm hoping they have a on-board ROM that has the 3D libraries on it so that you don't have to code them up yourself or license the libraries yourself. |
That would be the best I guess if there had to be a library at all. That said, obviously such a lib would have to be externally programmable. I forget off the top of my head but is there any kind of EPROM on the DS that's large enough to hold a 3D api of any use?
#29914 - ravuya - Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:20 pm
| benjamin wrote: |
| I am not clear yet on how the 3d is being done but I do not get the feeling it is being done through software, at least not based on looking at the registers. Its definitely not double buffered so I am not sure how a software renderer is going to be much use other than as a demo project to show its done. It will surely be slower than using the onboard 3d hardware. |
I think it is done by hardware, but the first thing I will do is write a software renderer, since I want more control than Nintendo will expose through their API.
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#30162 - mymateo - Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:32 am
I could be wrong... oh, I hope I am, but...
To my understanding, the ARM7 at 33 MHz handles all the GBA stuff when playing GBA games, and it does the touch screen, wireless, microphone, and audio when playing DS games. To me, this would say that the ARM9 at 66 MHz handles all the graphics.
Furthermore to my understanding, the 2D side of things on the DS is little more impressive than the GBA, if at all, and having a few extra bits of color (18 bit compared to 15 bit) isn't going to require 4x or more (the GBA had 16 MHz to run EVERYthing) power, so it seems logical that the 2nd CPU does ALL the graphics, 3D or otherwise.
On the other hand, I'm not up to snuff when it comes to 3D stuff, so I could be wrong. This is just me exercising my common sense.
Lik-Sang opened up a DS, here's the pics
http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3530
If anyone knows what the 3D GPU would look like, see if you can find it! And PLEASE tell us!
#30230 - merlinds - Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:35 pm
| mymateo wrote: |
2nd CPU does ALL the graphics, 3D or otherwise.
|
From what I heard the two CPUs both render graphics one for either screen and that they switch screens depending which screen needs the higher quality graphics. If you notice the graphics on one screen is always a little better than the other.
#30266 - maigo_kodaa - Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:04 am
| Quote: |
Not that I am challenging you, but where is this shown? If this is true, then what is the point of having registers that relate to 3d matrices? I think if it is a software library then we are all screwed, because obviously that library is copyrighted. If it is hardware, then we are fine. Now if it is software and yet we can still get at all of that hardware that the software library is wrapping, then we are fine as well. Although it suggests a certain degree of complexity that Nintendo wasn't even willing to push onto commercial developers.
I think things are fuzzier than ever at this point |
It's a set libraries that nintendo provides, you don't have to use it, but it's not too bad and certainly less of a pain then developing your own libs.
#30270 - benjamin - Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:21 am
| maigo_kodaa wrote: |
| Quote: | Not that I am challenging you, but where is this shown? If this is true, then what is the point of having registers that relate to 3d matrices? I think if it is a software library then we are all screwed, because obviously that library is copyrighted. If it is hardware, then we are fine. Now if it is software and yet we can still get at all of that hardware that the software library is wrapping, then we are fine as well. Although it suggests a certain degree of complexity that Nintendo wasn't even willing to push onto commercial developers.
I think things are fuzzier than ever at this point |
It's a set libraries that nintendo provides, you don't have to use it, but it's not too bad and certainly less of a pain then developing your own libs. |
That's cool, but I think the point here is that 3D on the DS is done via hardware. The fact that there is a software library available to commercial devs is a lot different then there being no other way of using 3D on the DS without their libs. See my point?
I think the point of clarification is worth mentioning, since essentially there is not a lot of difference between there being a software library available by Nintendo for 3D on the DS and there being a library available from Joe Schmoe to do gfx on the GBA. In the end, the commercial developer is allowed to use the hardware and Nintendo's consoles (in both cases) exposes the hardware, so the most accurate way to describe the DS from a technical standpoint is to say that the 3D capability is done through hardware.
Sorry for nitpicking :)