#29954 - BlackDragon777 - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:09 am
I bought a DS a couple of days ago and as we can all see, it is wireless. We can view the mac address in net stumbler. I don't think it should be to hard to upload our own demos to the DS. The DS will download multiplayer games from a host DS without needing a cartridge. Now I don't know much about the exchange protocols that go on yet but I think that you could write your own demo, and give it a header that matches that of a commercial game IE, Metroid or Mario 64 and from your computer send it out. The DS should be able to pick it up if it has the same header as a commercial game and thus you should be able to test it on the real DS. What does everyone else think? Easier said than done? Thanks in Advance!
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#29955 - penndragon - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:16 am
I think your rite but im not a programer
i have some background in networks
and you can trick the ds into thinking
a game is up for download by haveing your
computer change its mac address to match
or making a program to do it
#29956 - allenu - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:19 am
It could work, but the difficulty will be in figuring out the protocol and encryption used.
#29957 - penndragon - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:22 am
im not srue but i think thats why their looking in
to pictochat cause they get signals from the dses mac address
from that
#29958 - allenu - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:25 am
I think they're probably using a more complex and secure form of protocol than the pictochat ones, but that's definitely a good start. What we could use as well is a buffer overflow to get our own code executing.
#29959 - penndragon - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:28 am
ok correct me if im wrong if someone could
get the mac address from their ds cant they copy
it with their computer to send out the same address?
#29960 - allenu - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:31 am
I'm sure you could send packets to the DS, but the problem is the DS is going to be expecting data formatted in a certain way (encrypted, with checksums, etc.), so it's a bit more difficult than just sending raw data to it.
#29961 - ravuya - Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:37 am
allenu is right, we do definitely need to figure out how the DS download packages are built up before we do anything else. First we need some DS Download packages to dissect; I don't think the DS Download "demo units" are in stores yet, but it would be nice to wander on down with an iPaq, a copy of ethereal and netstumbler and attempt to figure out what the hell the units are going to send in order to get some nice raw data.
But yeah, once we get that, chances are the "dissect the DS wireless protocol" guys will have figured it out and someone can start producing tests on force-feeding the DS with data.
A buffer overflow would be a real coup at this point in time. Here's hoping for lazy American programmers!
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#30006 - MumblyJoe - Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:16 pm
I can assure you that people who actually know about wireless networks and programming are working very hard on this. Sorry to put this on you, but nothing you can think of is anything that they haven't thought of.
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#30163 - nolimit966 - Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:38 am
this would be an extremly good idea, especially if nintendo officially announced this and let developers like namco, ubisoft etc to produce downloadable demos from thier website so that we could upload it to our DSs to play!!!!!!
i really really cannot see nintendo letting this happen tho.
But hopefully someone can work out how to do it!
#30218 - penndragon - Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:59 pm
| MumblyJoe wrote: |
| I can assure you that people who actually know about wireless networks and programming are working very hard on this. Sorry to put this on you, but nothing you can think of is anything that they haven't thought of. |
Well im a network software tech in training for a year and
we are just brain storming on how to solve some problems
this dosint hurt their efforts so well just keep brain storming
untill we figure it out.
i dont think the ds is encrypted with checks it just has
a format that a pc dosent.
#30226 - merlinds - Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:15 pm
A lot of the packet capturing is being done in this thread,
http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=4447&start=165
including dumps etc. But a seperate thead for the development of demos might be a good idea.
#30232 - penndragon - Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:39 pm
Yeah we saw that but their mainly trying to get
picto chat online but I say thats a waste of time
seeing as you can only have 64 people on 4
chat rooms at 16 per I think we should all foucs
in on the DS download play so we can upload
our own Chat program.
#30234 - RiZeUp - Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:26 pm
it's not a waste of time. It's alot easier to work with pictochat packets then packets of a realtime game.
It's only normal for the easy stuff to get figured out before.
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#30236 - penndragon - Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:31 pm
Im not flaming but im saying picto chat packets are differnt from
sent packets in ds download play and if they crack picto chat
packets they have to start over on the download play packet
from the beginning and i dont see a point to making picto chat
online. no offence to the ones who are working on this
#30243 - tepples - Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:53 pm
But if we can actually send and receive Pictochat messages with a stock DS, then we may have some insight into how Nintendo's layer 3 actually works, which might help if games or MB downloads use similar layer 3 setups.
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#30254 - penndragon - Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:50 pm
Ok that makes scense
im not that knowleged in programing or data layers just
networking
#30261 - penndragon - Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:32 pm
Has any one copyed the data in a download play
transfer? if so cant they transmit that data from
their computer to a ds?
#30308 - merlinds - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:06 am
| penndragon wrote: |
Yeah we saw that but their mainly trying to get
picto chat online but I say thats a waste of time
seeing as you can only have 64 people on 4
chat rooms at 16 per I think we should all foucs
in on the DS download play so we can upload
our own Chat program. |
Actually if you look now a lot of the work is decoding downloaded game packets. There is also lots of juicy game download dumps to get you teeth in to.
#30310 - tepples - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:09 am
| penndragon wrote: |
Ok that makes scense
im not that knowleged in programing or data layers just networking |
For those playing at home, "layer 3" refers to the OSI model. The DS and Internet-routed Wi-Fi use the same 802.11b, which covers layers 1 and 2. Layers 3-5 of the Internet stack are IP, TCP, and TCP; if we can get a basic idea of how Nintendo's stack works from layer 3 on up by observing PictoChat, then we can start attacking DS multiboot.
| Quote: |
| Has any one copyed the data in a download play transfer? if so cant they transmit that data from their computer to a ds? |
You mean a naive replay attack? That wouldn't work if the packet sequence numbers change from play to play, such as if they're initialized based on the DS's internal RTC.
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-- Who?
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#30482 - penndragon - Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:57 pm
| tepples wrote: |
For those playing at home, "layer 3" refers to the OSI model. The DS and Internet-routed Wi-Fi use the same 802.11b, which covers layers 1 and 2. Layers 3-5 of the Internet stack are IP, TCP, and TCP; if we can get a basic idea of how Nintendo's stack works from layer 3 on up by observing PictoChat, then we can start attacking DS multiboot. |
ok OSI layer 3 i thought you guys ment a data layer in the packets
and i asked my teacher Prof. Zaman about this he suggested
MPLS (that works on layer 2 and 3 so we could in theory work with
the ds on all routers) any input to that?
#30499 - localhost - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:22 pm
To the best of my knowledge, a MPLS will understand layer 3 the problem with playing over the internet is that the only layer 3 protocol the internet understands is IP. That's why PPTP is unique is that it can route other layer 3 protocols such as IPX/SPX over the internet by encapsulating it in an IP packet and then de-encapsulating(is that even a word?) it on the other end and outputting the packet in it's original format.
Also, a MPLS will do you no good here because right now only the ds knows its layer 3 protocol and even the switch wouldn't. Layer 2 is the only thing that is common to the DS that all other network equipment can understand. And besides that, I've never heard of a switching wireless device except for maybe for the use of VLANS in a wifi network.
The OSI model is tricky for most to understand at first, but once you get it, it opens up the whole idea of protocols to you correctly.
Just a quick lesson
layer 1 - hardware such as cables, nics, electricity, and i guess even RF signals
layer 2 - sending packets over the wire using a standard protocol such as LLC that defines how the hardware itself understands it. All packets no matter whether IP, IPX, DLC, etc. use layer 2.
layer 3 - routing protocols in my book. IP, IPX, etc fall under here. It's a more human understandable way of addressing machines. Your ip address is a layer 3 property.
layer 4 - tcp, udp, icmp fall under here. All tcp, udp, icmp packets look the same as far as layer 3 goes, the all have and destination and origin ip address information in them. TCP defines a type of ip traffic that is negotiated, packets verify that they make it to their destination, and have a logical port # so the pc will know what application actually gets the packet. ICMP doesn't use ports, it uses ICMP type to define the different type of icmp packet being sent, such as 0/8 are ping and reply.
layer 5 and up - are more application, presentation layers that build on the previous layers. examples, http, telnet, ftp, etc.
Sorry for the long post but I understand a lot of people just never had to learn this and thought I'd try to explain it. Also, before someone nitpicks this post to death, I understand the the internet does also understand BGP, EIGRP, etc layer 3 routing protocols but most ISP's aren't goning to let you pass them anyway.
#30501 - penndragon - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:33 pm
Hmm I did say i was a Network tech right?
so the osi isint new to me but i was suggesting
that MPLS be used in this project because of
it ability to move/switch multiprotocol's and
differnt OS to a router.
#30510 - localhost - Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:22 pm
| penndragon wrote: |
Hmm I did say i was a Network tech right?
so the osi isint new to me but i was suggesting
that MPLS be used in this project because of
it ability to move/switch multiprotocol's and
differnt OS to a router. |
Sorry to offend you. Just trying to clarify for everybody else. Still %100 of all routers out there don't know how to speak DS Layer 3. Heck, I'm willing to bet the ds's layer 3 protocol isn't even routable like DECnet and Netbeui aren't since they meant it to be used locally only. It still needs to be encapsulated to transfer over routers.
#30955 - penndragon - Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:00 pm
| localhost wrote: |
Sorry to offend you. Just trying to clarify for everybody else. Still %100 of all routers out there don't know how to speak DS Layer 3. Heck, I'm willing to bet the ds's layer 3 protocol isn't even routable like DECnet and Netbeui aren't since they meant it to be used locally only. It still needs to be encapsulated to transfer over routers. |
Thats ok and i went back to my Prof and he sed we
cant route undefined protocols so I guess i was wrong
about MPLS sorry...
#32038 - Sebbo - Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:06 pm
i don't think pictochat is the answer for this...once you send your code using pictochat packets, how do you execute the code? the DS Download Play however would work perfectly, and you wouldn't need to crack the NiFi (DS is WiFi compatable, its using the 802.11g protocol, which is backwards compatable with b, which is y u hear ppl saying b so much)
i wouldn't use a router to send code to the DS, just a WiFI PCI card would do it. if your running code from your PC you wouldn't b terribly far away from it
thats my 2 cents, i hope it helps somebody out
#32073 - TJ - Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:22 pm
| Sebbo wrote: |
i don't think pictochat is the answer for this...once you send your code using pictochat packets, how do you execute the code? the DS Download Play however would work perfectly, and you wouldn't need to crack the NiFi (DS is WiFi compatable, its using the 802.11g protocol, which is backwards compatable with b, which is y u hear ppl saying b so much)
i wouldn't use a router to send code to the DS, just a WiFI PCI card would do it. if your running code from your PC you wouldn't b terribly far away from it
thats my 2 cents, i hope it helps somebody out |
All current games and the DS itself (both in the Download mode and PictoChat) are using "NiFi", so you are going to have to crack it no matter what.
And the DS is a B device, not G.
#32299 - Alex Atkin UK - Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:16 pm
People seem to keep mis-interpreting the DS wireless specs.
Here are the different forms of 802.11:
| Quote: |
* 802.11 -- applies to wireless LANs and provides 1 or 2 Mbps transmission in the 2.4 GHz band using either frequency hopping spread spectrum (FHSS) or direct sequence spread spectrum (DSSS).
* 802.11a -- an extension to 802.11 that applies to wireless LANs and provides up to 54 Mbps in the 5GHz band. 802.11a uses an orthogonal frequency division multiplexing encoding scheme rather than FHSS or DSSS.
* 802.11b (also referred to as 802.11 High Rate or Wi-Fi) -- an extension to 802.11 that applies to wireless LANS and provides 11 Mbps transmission (with a fallback to 5.5, 2 and 1 Mbps) in the 2.4 GHz band. 802.11b uses only DSSS. 802.11b was a 1999 ratification to the original 802.11 standard, allowing wireless functionality comparable to Ethernet.
* 802.11g -- applies to wireless LANs and provides 20+ Mbps in the 2.4 GHz band.
|
The DS supports 802.11 ONLY! Thats why its short range and only up to 2Mbps.
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#32356 - mymateo - Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:57 am
I guess it's because most people who didn't take the time to learn the differences only realy think there's an 802.11b and an 802.11g, since those are what we see most of on the store shelves. I, for one, fall mostly into that category. It just wasn't high on my priority list. All I needed to know was that if I was running the 802.11b spec, it will be compatible as long as the DS likes the hardware.
In any case, thanks for clarifying things! :)
#32357 - Darkain - Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:05 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11
this is about alls i gotta say...
personally, i still think it is a stipped down version of 802.11b, rather then 802.11legacy. reasons? things like the short preamble and the interoperability... i dont think we would be seeing the success that we do now, if it where legacy, and not "b"
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