#30339 - ScottLininger - Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:51 pm
If it turns out that the wireless protocol on the DS really is unencrypted and easy to spoof, then couldn't we see a rash of abuse?
A few possibilities:
1. Viruses. You get an invite to join in a game of Metroid, but when you download the multiboot it's not metroid at all but some virus. (If the firmware *CAN* be rewritten then this could be a huge problem.)
2. PictoSpam. Somebody sets up a Wifi agent on their linux laptop that joins any detected chatroom and fills the screen with message after message of penis enlargement ads and god knows what else. (Once the DS gets web enabled the possibilities for this get scary.)
3. Cheating. You're playing multiplayer deathmatch with some demented 12-year-old on a bus, and you find that your avatar isn't responding because of a little agent on his laptop (or spare DS, eventually) that's pumping out random commands for you.
Granted, item #1 requires more than just recording packets and resending them, but #2 and #3 could potentially be figured out fairly soon.
Of course, there's the "why would anyone bother" argument. That's why you don't see that many viruses on the Mac. But the potential is there, and I wonder if Nintendo plans on addressing these at all.
Is it possible that some of the "cracking teams" who are refusing to share information have nefarious plans like these in mind? Is it possible that creating easy-to-use spoofing tools could have unintended consequences? I'm not advocating that anyone STOP work on this, but it is food for thought.
-Scott
#30342 - NoMis - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:06 pm
I think these would be extreme cases that, altought possible, are unlikly to happen.
And how doe's a 12 year old affort a lap top :)
NoMis
#30343 - ravuya - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:09 pm
Don't worry, we're technologists. We don't have to know the ethical issues of our tech. </sarcasm>
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#30344 - keldon - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:17 pm
Well phone spamming has managed to become a problem in some areas. We're already victims of mail spamming, email spamming, chat spamming and Windows Messenger Spamming. So what's stopping the gameboy from recieving some spam?
#30345 - leonard_ - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:19 pm
Ideas about your suggestions:
1) Viruses is only a problem IF the bios could be overwritten by software, wich I really doubt. (to my knowledge, never seen on console before). If BIOS is write-protected, then virus is not dangerous as there is no static media such as hard-drive.
2) spam is a bit limited by wi-fi range. Spam is a real pain for e-mail but I hope not so painfull for pictochat :-)
3) Cheating IS the pain for network game, and this is not specific to wireless network. If pictochat, mario and metroids seems not using crypto, maybe future massively online RPG games will !
Other ideas: some people said there is no crypto simply because we can find ascci text in raw packet.
Now let's imagine there is digital-signature at the end of a game transfert, and BIOS check the digital signature. In that case, and if nintendo has no security weak in implementing digital signature, we're all fucked up :-) We can't execute data not signed !
I'm pretty sure the RSA is used for digital signature. RSA is very CPU expensive and can't be used on large amount of data. It's generally used to crypt a symetric random key cypher ( as PGP ) or used for digital signatures (wich are often small such as 160 or 256bits).
#30349 - ravuya - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:28 pm
| leonard_ wrote: |
| 2) spam is a bit limited by wi-fi range. Spam is a real pain for e-mail but I hope not so painfull for pictochat :-) |
That's definitely true. :) The time spent developing, say, a spammer in a briefcase device would probably not be offset by the response; there just aren't enough suckers to make it worthwhile.
I expect some idiots harassing one another with other people's pre-built Pictochat spam tools, though: just look at public networks like AIMchat and IRC. If that happens the community will probably have to then be responsible for developing some sort of "private pictochat" system.
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Last edited by ravuya on Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
#30350 - ScottLininger - Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:29 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
| And how doe's a 12 year old affort a lap top :) |
:) Good point. Though eventually you might be able to use a spare DS (or a Palm, or a cellphone) for these sorts of attacks.
-Scott
#30367 - localhost - Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:38 pm
The virus could be used to delete the saved game data off of the cart though. The recent official ps2 demo disk has a game on it that if played with a memory card in the console, it will erase it. For us playing GTA:SA with over 40 hours dedicated to it, it would be a disaster.
#30389 - Darkain - Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:32 pm
dont worry about viruses too much. remember, code download doesnt happen autoatically, you have to manually start the download process.
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#30464 - Boeboe - Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:12 pm
That makes me wonder...would it be possible to set up a "ni-fi" hotspot, so that all DS consoles in a range of..let's say...500 meters can see each other?
#30494 - Hyo - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:07 pm
| Boeboe wrote: |
| That makes me wonder...would it be possible to set up a "ni-fi" hotspot, so that all DS consoles in a range of..let's say...500 meters can see each other? |
I work at a kiosk selling cell phone accessories and we have some "range boosters" for cell phones, I tried putting one on my DS, right under the stylus so it's close to the internal antenna (http://forum.lik-sang.com/other/nds-release/nds-release-open7.jpg) and I've seen a small increase in the effective range of pictochat and multiplayer games, I'm hoping to start seeing more ideas along this line that will increase the range of the DS more and more. Maybe we can get city-wide eventually ^_~.
#30503 - ravuya - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:39 pm
My wager is that you should be able to use a wifi repeater and get a boosted signal, but I have neither the time nor the spare cash to find this out.
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#30505 - sgeos - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:46 pm
| ScottLininger wrote: |
| NoMis wrote: | | And how doe's a 12 year old affort a lap top :) |
:) Good point. Though eventually you might be able to use a spare DS (or a Palm, or a cellphone) for these sorts of attacks. |
Mommy and daddy buy it? The spoiled 12 year old brat future engineer with a laptop would be just the type of person to do something like this.
-Brendan
#30506 - Boeboe - Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:48 pm
if lik-sang plays nice I will have my DS begin next week, I'll do some testing then myself
#30533 - dagamer34 - Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:36 pm
| Boeboe wrote: |
| if lik-sang plays nice I will have my DS begin next week, I'll do some testing then myself |
Geez, it's as if the DS is sold out everywhere! I went to my local Wal-mart and they had at least 7 units there. And there was a DS demo unit so it's not like they just snuck the system in...
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#30542 - ScottLininger - Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:02 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| Boeboe wrote: | | if lik-sang plays nice I will have my DS begin next week, I'll do some testing then myself |
Geez, it's as if the DS is sold out everywhere! I went to my local Wal-mart and they had at least 7 units there. And there was a DS demo unit so it's not like they just snuck the system in... |
Nintendo is filling the PR wires with stories like this one, suggesting that they're going to be hard to find before long.
But that's not my observation, either. I've seen piles of 'em.
-Scott
#30546 - mymateo - Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:07 am
| leonard_ wrote: |
| 1) Viruses is only a problem IF the bios could be overwritten by software, wich I really doubt. (to my knowledge, never seen on console before). If BIOS is write-protected, then virus is not dangerous as there is no static media such as hard-drive. |
I think Playstation 2 has firmware updates, you can see which version you use from within the menus when you start the system. I don't own a PS2, and I've never updated it, and it could just be that it's telling you which firmware you system CAME with and will forever have (Sony likes making a million revisions to their hardware, don't they have about 8-10 different PS models, and one or two PSOne, and about half a dozen PS2 already?)
So there you have it... I don't know what this proves, if anything, and I don't think it really matters, but oh well! Maybe someone can make use of this info...
#30547 - localhost - Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:31 am
PS2 is up to rev 10 last I checked. I have never seen a ps2 firmware upgraded. Just shows which one it came with.
#30552 - Abscissa - Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:38 am
| localhost wrote: |
| The virus could be used to delete the saved game data off of the cart though. The recent official ps2 demo disk has a game on it that if played with a memory card in the console, it will erase it. For us playing GTA:SA with over 40 hours dedicated to it, it would be a disaster. |
I heared it was the Viewtiful Joe 2 demo.
#30576 - Boeboe - Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:10 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| Boeboe wrote: | | if lik-sang plays nice I will have my DS begin next week, I'll do some testing then myself |
Geez, it's as if the DS is sold out everywhere! I went to my local Wal-mart and they had at least 7 units there. And there was a DS demo unit so it's not like they just snuck the system in... |
You are forgetting that in Europe, we have to rely on importstores, and they simply can't keep up with the demand. Sure there will be lots of consoles left in American retailer stores, but I doubt that they are going to transfer them to the importstores. In case of lik-sang they are limited at the amount of each shipment nintendo brings in.
#30580 - mymateo - Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:23 am
Then there's always the option of asking some Canadian (like myself) or an American very nicely if he/she is willing to buy a DS and ship it to you. I know where I live, I could probably get my hands on half a dozen DS units, and nearly every launch game.
Of course, expect to pay a little more than retail...