#30742 - neptunez - Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:40 am
| Quote: |
Brandon (echelon) and I have decided to make an open source Nintendo DS tunnel to end the long-standing regime of hate that is Xlink. Unlike Xlink, our primary goal is to offer freedom for users to enjoy DS tunneling in the ways that users want it most: their own. Aside from an open source client, we will also be developing an open source server system that may be deployed for personal use. All of our programs will be highly scalable to adapt to new protocols or systems, not to mention that our client will implement features that offer revolutionary experience without the need of a centralized server. This is just one of the many tricks we have hiding up our sleeves.
We would also like to note that we are not at all competing with Warp Pipe at any level. Warp Pipe intends to transcend the tunneling scene altogether, and this is something that our project does not aim to do. What we do plan to do is compete directly with Xlink by offering players more options, better gameplay, and something they've been lacking all along: freedom of choice.
Aside from the client and server, we will be developing a library of PHP (perhaps Perl) classes and scripts replete with detailed statistics, player profiles, RSS, signature stats generators, and more. The client and server will both offer an abundant set of useful APIs for programmers to use for whatever they may; you could even see client plugins for Gaim, Trillian, Firefox, and others in the near future. It's the advantage of open source that allows us to offer you all of these great options. Since our code - not just the program itself - is free to everyone, the possibilities are truly endless.
We do, however, have a few more needs in order to make this dream become a reality, one of them being developers. Since a lot of time and effort is required to get us off the ground, we're looking for prospective C programmers to join our team. A certain level of proficiency is mandatory, UNIX API knowledge is a plus, and networking or wifi skills is a tremendous plus. While we are looking for a small core team to begin with, we could certainly expand into multiple teams working on multiple projects, each a component of the larger whole. For now we must focus on the critical issues at hand, and this requires a small, talented workgroup that can work together to develop the core libraries. We urge anyone with experience in the areas detailed in this paragraph to contact with us. Methods to get in touch are detailed below.
We feel that Xlink is not the sad end of the console tunneling scene, and we want the last days of tunneling to be the best ever. After DemaSked is released, we intend to continue our project even though DemaSked will likely bring an end to tunneling as an option for future games once and for all. This project means a lot to us, and we have great deal of respect for the opportunity that has been provided to us by the Nintendo DS. We have a lot of ideas in mind, and all of them involve you, the gamer. Let's make this the best tunnel program yet.
Our project is located on the Source Forge servers at:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nitro/
You can contact Brandon for recruiting at following address and IM handles:
AIM: echelonre
MSN: echelon@gmail.com
email: echelon@gmail.com |
The dudes at teamxlink.co.uk
#30749 - dagamer34 - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:31 am
I really don't like this bitter dispute people and the competition to "tunnel the DS" first. It isn't productive at all; in fact, it's just plain childish. It's okay to say that there are other "competitiors" out there, and sure they may be wanting to reach the same general goal as you, however purposely insulting other "teams" accomplishes nothing in the community.
Offering an alternative to what is available (or likely to be) is one thing, making others look like their work is nothing is another. I don't think anyone is being paid for these projects, it's still certainly amazing what some people do in their free time for the good of all.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#30750 - ravuya - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:35 am
Agreed. I'm glad this is open-source; far better than having it controlled by a shifty mini-corp like xlink.
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Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#30752 - ChaosKnight - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:57 am
It's good to see a team forming. We need more people forming teams... I remember the good old days where groups worked together towards a common goal. ...Napalm...
#30753 - neptunez - Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:56 am
Read their documentation, they've got quite the plan.
I wish them all the luck
| Quote: |
MIKE'S SIDE
Mike turns on his Nintendo DS and goes to Metroid Prime: Hunters [First Hunt]. He starts his Nintendo DS as a server on Metroid Prime: Hunters [First Hunt]. Then, Mike fires up the Nitro Online excecutable on his laptop. Nitro Online then uses the crossWireless function collection, a wrapper for Nitro Online, to find his Nintendo DS, which is constently sending 3,000 beacon packets per second. Nitro Online finds three MAC addresses. crossWireless, the wireless wrapper, then passes the three MAC addresses to Nitro Online. Nitro Online then checks for a MAC address starting with 00:09:BF. Once found, Nitro Online stores the MAC address in an unsigned char of an array of six. Mike is then notified that his Nintendo DS' MAC address has been identified. He jumps for joy, repeaditly thanking god that his new Prism2 wireless adapter was worth it (How right he is). He is then prompted with the menu if he hasn't already supplied command-line arguments. This is done to keep the application user-friendly, people. He instantly hits the number 2, which starts a server. Nitro Online starts two POSIX sockets. One is a TCP server socket, and the other is a UDP socket. He waits for his good buddy Dan to connect.
DAN'S SIDE
Dan flipped his Nintendo DS opened which booted into the Metroid Prime: Hunters [First Hunt] main menu. He then hits 'Join a game' after touching Multiplayer. His Nintendo DS finds no games avalaible, no surprise. He sets his DS down to the side of his USB Netgear wireless adapter. He then executes Nitro Online. Nitro Online finds his Nintendo DS, and notifies him. This is no surprise, as he developed Nitro Online in the first place, seeing that his DS was found over countless nights of testing with trial-and-error :-). He commands his computer by typing a 3 after being prompted for user input. He is then prompted for an IP address to connect to. He enters Mike's IP address, and hits return. Behind the scenes, Nitro Online instanciates two sockets, a TCP client and UDP socket. Now this is where Dan gets stupid :P
THE FUN
Oh yes, the part we've all been waiting for. Mike sees that a client has connected to his server through TCP. "w00t!" Mike's Nitro Online and Dan's Nitro Online then exchange the MAC addresses of their Nintendo DS' through TCP. Mike's Nitro Online spoofs his wireless card's MAC address to Dan's DS' MAC address. Dan's Nitro Online does the same to his wireless card, but with Mike's DS MAC address. Because they just spoofed their wireless card's MAC address to the Nintendo's registered one (00:09:BF) the Nintendo DS' will communicate with their (Mike's and Dan's) wireless cards. The Nitro Onlines then intercept Nintendo DS MAC data sent by the DS', wrap them in a UDP packet, and send to the other party. TCP then confirms the arrival of the MAC packet. Once the packet's arrival has been confirmed, the other party then uses their wireless card to send a MAC packet to the Nintendo DS.
|
#30762 - ector - Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:30 am
Looks to me like a bunch of dimwits who just want to recruit coders to do the actual work and then take the credit for themselves.
#30768 - Hajaz - Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:44 pm
hi, i'd just like to point out that xlink is not a "mini-corp", but a hobyist project, with 0 cash flow.
this kind of hostile attitude is the main reason why xlink has to keep their stuff under wraps for aslong as possible.
http://www.teamxlink.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4544
#30780 - dagamer34 - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:15 pm
| Hajaz wrote: |
hi, i'd just like to point out that xlink is not a "mini-corp", but a hobyist project, with 0 cash flow.
this kind of hostile attitude is the main reason why xlink has to keep their stuff under wraps for aslong as possible.
http://www.teamxlink.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4544 |
Like what I said in my original post in this topic:
| Quote: |
I really don't like this bitter dispute people and the competition to "tunnel the DS" first. It isn't productive at all; in fact, it's just plain childish. It's okay to say that there are other "competitiors" out there, and sure they may be wanting to reach the same general goal as you, however purposely insulting other "teams" accomplishes nothing in the community.
Offering an alternative to what is available (or likely to be) is one thing, making others look like their work is nothing is another. I don't think anyone is being paid for these projects, it's still certainly amazing what some people do in their free time for the good of all. |
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#30782 - ravuya - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:31 pm
| Hajaz wrote: |
hi, i'd just like to point out that xlink is not a "mini-corp", but a hobyist project, with 0 cash flow.
this kind of hostile attitude is the main reason why xlink has to keep their stuff under wraps for aslong as possible.
http://www.teamxlink.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4544 |
Hm, I apologize. I had considered it similar to the multitudes of companies trying to make money off of console tunnelling (Warp Pipe, Gamespy).
I wonder what he's talking about when he refers to the "long-standing regime of hate that is Xlink". Perhaps it's that Xlink appears to be closed-source, and therefore not much help to the independent community at large. It's always possible that he's just being annoying and trying to stir up the flames of hate so we end up with giant forked projects like in the Linux community.
_________________
Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#30783 - Hajaz - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:41 pm
no problem man
like i said, this whole hostility thing is pretty unfortunate, its been going on eversince Warppipe accused Xlink of "stealing their (opensource) code".
I think it has to do with the fact that xlink started out as an xbox tunnel, hence many people think were somehow plotting to destroy Nintendo :s
Anyway, the details on how it works exactly should be released soon enough
#30786 - ravuya - Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:59 pm
Sure. After reading the thread you posted and a few of the OP's earlier posts, I've come to the conclusion that he's really trying to stir up trouble for no real gain. I don't think homebrew programmers work well under such a poisonous environment at all.
_________________
Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#30815 - merlinds - Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:02 am
| ravuya wrote: |
I wonder what he's talking about when he refers to the "long-standing regime of hate that is Xlink". |
Apparantly Warp Pipe and Team Xlink have a bitter past and from what I hear on other boards the Nitro Online people hail from Warp Pipe.
I have seen their other posts regarding this project and from what it appears they need programmers because they do not know the technical stuff themselves. (Correct me if I am wrong) The idea of someone starting an open source project and talking big and then saying well we don't know how to do it but can you help us, is kind of sad. This thing is getting way more attention than it deserves.
I am not bias to either Xlink or Warp Pipe but I appreciate those who are actually getting something done.
#30822 - echelon - Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:16 am
| ector wrote: |
| Looks to me like a bunch of dimwits who just want to recruit coders to do the actual work and then take the credit for themselves. |
How much do you know about us? Why don't you come to your conclusions objectively, after you've heard both sides of this argument?
| ravuya wrote: |
| Sure. After reading the thread you posted and a few of the OP's earlier posts, I've come to the conclusion that he's really trying to stir up trouble for no real gain. I don't think homebrew programmers work well under such a poisonous environment at all. |
It was never our intention to stir up any kind of trouble. When we said hate, we were referring to the kind of dogmatic behavior that we've observed in the past by members of the Xlink community; even now you can clearly see the evidence of this. What have they done besides talk bad about us in every forum that Nitro Online is mentioned at? And I'm not just talking about comments like, "Nitro Online has no codebase. Xlink is almost done, and they're proven!" I wouldn't mind it if those were the kind of posts being made; I can respect that. Unfortunately, some of Xlink, including many of the more "elite" members of their community have resorted to nothing more than using blatant character attacks and false accusations in an attempt to denigrate Nitro Online. I don't believe this has anything to do with being fair in their minds, unfortunately. Hence our statement. Hate. We knew that this was going to happen, we just didn't know it would be at this level. In my mind, they're really showing what they're made of. Take a good look.
| ravuya wrote: |
| I wonder what he's talking about when he refers to the "long-standing regime of hate that is Xlink". |
I try to be open minded when I post at Warp Pipe. I don't really have much of an affiliation one way or another; I just enjoy the fun-loving Nintendo community. I don't really enjoy Mario Kart, so I've never even really been into the Gamecube tunneling scene, so my reason for being there is strictly because it is fun to post with other Nintendo fans.
But it's every week that we see one or more people from Xlink come and spam the Warp Pipe forums about how Warp Pipe sucks or how Xlink is going to kill DemaSked; I could go on... I am tired of it. We're all tired of it. All I know is that I don't go to Xlink and post at bad things about them, and I don't think any respectable person from the Warp Pipe community would do that. This is why we said "hate." It's an attack aimed blatantly at Warp Pipe, and now I'm sure that smearing Nitro Online will be part of the agenda included in their "regime of hate."
Personally, I would be perfectly content with competition. Not to be rivals, but instead to use competition as a way bring about new and unique novelties. Our vision of competition is not one to claim a prize; we're not trying to sit atop the throne here. Instead, our ideal is that competition is your prize. What we sow, the community reaps. This wasn't intended by us to be a survival of the fittest, but instead mutual coevolution which benefits all parties. In fact, we even wanted to involve you in it as a part of this process, ala Linux or Firefox.
However, it seems that it is Xlink's intention that they want to be rivals. Looking at Xlink's forums today, I discovered that many of them were using character attacks against us; especially upstetting was one "dfunked," an Xlink community admin who had this to offer:
| dfunked wrote: |
This isn't "competition". This is some loser thinking he can rally up some Warp Pipe members on the forums (which he will, given his motivation in all of this is to "end the long-standing regime of hate that is Xlink").
Are we scared? Fuck no.
Aside from the client and server, we will be developing a library of P-H-P (perhaps Perl) classes and scripts replete with detailed statistics, player profiles, RSS, signature stats generators, and more.
1. Since when did you hyphenate PHP. What an idiot.
2. 'replete'. What the hell is that.
3. RSS? OOOHHHHHHH MYYY GOOODDDDDD THAT IS SO COOL .. and, what the fuck has that got to do with tunnelling anyway..
4. "What we do plan to do is compete directly with Xlink by offering players more options, better gameplay, and something they've been lacking all along: freedom of choice." Freedom of choice. You've got 2 fucking choices. Sit on your ass all day posting rumours about DemaSked in 245 page threads, or go play the DS online.
5. "We do, however, have a few more needs in order to make this dream become a reality, one of them being developers." - This just screams to me "I'm a 12 year old idiot, with few friends. I want to become popular, so I'll make this thing about anti-XLink. Mind you, I can't code it, but I'm going to pretend I can but in reality all I have is an idea and hopefully some morons who believe my crap will decide to code my ideas". Sounds just like how Chad operates Very Happy
6. " After DemaSked is released, we intend to continue our project even though DemaSked will likely bring an end to tunneling as an option for future games once and for all." - This guy needs to get out more. OK. XBox Live, XLink. XBox Live is probably 100000000x better than whatever DemaSked is, yet do you see us with 0 users. In fact, a lot of people dislike XBox Live and come to XLink.
7. Don't think I ever saw a Windows application written in C. Do they really know what they've gotten themselves into..
8. Why all this effort when in 3 months their "beloved" DemaSked (whatever it is) comes out. They haven't even got any developers yet.
So, can someone please tell me 2 things.
1. How the fuck is this competition?
2. How is this going to come out before anything we have when there's not even any developers and minimal support? |
| dfunked wrote: |
Sounds like they've got a school project for 7th grade to write a little essay and this is what they wrote it on.
My mark? D for delusional but possibly even an F for fraudulence.. |
That's upsetting.
Is Xlink breeding intolerance? That's up to you to decide. Nitro Online will not do so; I'll do my best not to behave in a way such as the example I posted above. This is one of our reasons for this project, aside from the fact that we want to sponsor innovation, not elitism.
Maybe they're afraid of what competition will bring. Xlink, why not embrace this as a way to better yourself, your community, and your program? If you care about the end user more than your own prestige, you'll be modest and do such.
| merlinds wrote: |
| Apparantly Warp Pipe and Team Xlink have a bitter past and from what I hear on other boards the Nitro Online people hail from Warp Pipe. |
Firstly, I would like to clear up the misconception that we hail from Warp Pipe. I have no affiliation or pact with any group; Dan and I are doing this in and of ourselves for the benefit of all Nintendo DS users. It is true that we both post at Warp Pipe, and while I cannot speak for him, I have already offered my reasons for posting there. I love Nintendo, and I enjoy the large Warp Pipe community - a Nintendo community. It's fun and enjoyable.
Also, you should note that Dan and I posted the initial thread, not Warp Pipe's Chad Paulson. Chad is working on his DemaSked project, and we are eager to see it. We chose to post at Warp Pipe in an effort to see if there were any developers there that we might be able to work alongside. We felt this was the best place we could possibly post our request. Maybe you should also be aware of the fact that we did not post this at Xlink. We're not trying to inflame anything or start any kind of war. If there's any hostility, it's not on the part of Dan or I. We will not take part in such a shameless waste.
| merlinds wrote: |
| I have seen their other posts regarding this project and from what it appears they need programmers because they do not know the technical stuff themselves. (Correct me if I am wrong) The idea of someone starting an open source project and talking big and then saying well we don't know how to do it but can you help us, is kind of sad. This thing is getting way more attention than it deserves. |
I believe we have been misrepresented in the fact that we are open source as well. We are open because we believe that it is fundamentally wrong to allow users to use an alternative service and then deny them the right to help improve it or change it into something they want themselves. This is like providing the internet without letting anyone build anything on it by themselves. We're just your friendly, neighborhood Mozilla-like organization - this is how we intend conduct ourselves.
Lastly, I will note the reason behind our request for developers. We aren't novices, but in order to bring our service to a state in which it works as soon as possible (gamers have been craving this), we have deemed it appropriate that we should have a larger team to handle multiple aspects of our project. Xlink already has enough resources to facilitate tunneling the DS. Nitro Online does not yet have the necessary components. Therefore, we think that we are behind in at least this one aspect and we would like to rectify it. Xlink has a lot of code behind itself; we have just begun. It only makes sense that we will need something not short of the functionality that Xlink provides in order to appeal to the gaming masses. We just want your help and support in order to do so. Dev or don't dev - it's your choice. I don't see how disparaging us because of our request will do anyone any good.
Simply put, the overall reason for us doing what we are doing is because we think that Xlink isn't necessarily in the best interest of everyone; we want to be. Thanks for listening.
- Brandon, Project Nitro Online
#30832 - Hyo - Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:41 am
I ain't concerned
I'm a tell you what Banks told me cause go 'head switch the style up
If haters wanna hate then let 'em hate
Watch the money pile up
#30851 - Hajaz - Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:43 pm
i'll just say this: it comes across as extremely imature to badmouth your competition like that in a statement announcing your project.
You can try to twist it anyway you want, but it still remains fact.
It was obviously an attempt get support from the wp community.
You claim to be independent from them, but at the same time you admit your motivation for badmouthing us lies in what happened between WP and xlink in the past.
Basically, you immediatly threw the first stone as soon as you announced your project, and now your crying about upsetting replies.
#30865 - Sukanu - Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:24 pm
there is one thing that bothers me.
| Quote: |
Mike's Nitro Online spoofs his wireless card's MAC address to Dan's DS' MAC address. Dan's Nitro Online does the same to his wireless card, but with Mike's DS MAC address. Because they just spoofed their wireless card's MAC address to the Nintendo's registered one (00:09:BF) the Nintendo DS' will communicate with their (Mike's and Dan's) wireless cards. |
if you do this you can NEVER have more than 2 people playing. unless you have multpule laptop transmiters.
---EDIT
well i guess you could emulate multipal wireless connections off one card, but thats gunna be a bitch to the hardware when twopacets arive at the same time for diffrent addresses.
#30868 - ravuya - Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:38 pm
Well, thanks for posting your side of the story, echelon. I recommend we all just go write code now instead of trying to get politicized.
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Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#30885 - Dysfunkshunal - Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:41 pm
| Hajaz wrote: |
| It was obviously an attempt get support from the wp community. |
But then your post can be interpreted as an insult towards Warp Pipe users. I think that any respectable member of the Warp Pipe community is not interested in bashing/namecalling (regardless of what the subject may be), unlike what you seem to be implying. If he/she does so, this is generally not appreciated by other members.
The reason we support this project is because of it's content and goals. Ness, echelon and the rest of the Nitro team are genuinely interested in the needs and wishes of us, the end users. They want to make a decent, open-sourced DS tunneling client that's easy to use and can be further customized and improved upon by it's users. It's this, along with the knowledge that a group of dedicated programmers backed by a strong community can do great things, that drives us.
Now why is this considered as bad news by some? Any support for bringing the DS online is in the interest of DS owners and should be welcomed. Also note that supporting the Nitro Project does not equal hating Xlink. I am however disappointed in some of the replies made by certain Xlink members.
I'd like to ask anyone who's interested, to help this project by spreading the news.
And last, I want to end this post by quoting ravuya:
| ravuya wrote: |
| I recommend we all just go write code now instead of trying to get politicized. |
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#30889 - Hajaz - Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:05 pm
eheh
i dont mind competition, nor does anyone else.
What i do mind is the the fact that the announcement of Nitro, the very first thing we ever heard about the project, is full of anti xlink talk.
It should be edited and apologised for, nuff said.
#30900 - nessup - Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:57 pm
| Sukanu wrote: |
there is one thing that bothers me.
| Quote: |
Mike's Nitro Online spoofs his wireless card's MAC address to Dan's DS' MAC address. Dan's Nitro Online does the same to his wireless card, but with Mike's DS MAC address. Because they just spoofed their wireless card's MAC address to the Nintendo's registered one (00:09:BF) the Nintendo DS' will communicate with their (Mike's and Dan's) wireless cards. |
if you do this you can NEVER have more than 2 people playing. unless you have multpule laptop transmiters.
---EDIT
well i guess you could emulate multipal wireless connections off one card, but thats gunna be a bitch to the hardware when twopacets arive at the same time for diffrent addresses. |
After further research, we had discovered that the DS is not biased against MAC addresses. As long as it's talking with a DS protocol, it doesn't care about MAC. I''ll remove it from the docs right now.
#30940 - dfunked - Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:12 pm
Well let's get a few things straight..
1. I stand by what I said.
2. It's *MY OWN* opinion. I may be an admin at Team XLink, but it's not hte opinion of the whole team - it might well be I'm not sure.
3. I know you're not Chad, but you're close to him being a long standing member of the WP community. As such, you should be more aware of Chad accusing us of being thieves, liars and unprofessionals. The links to such threads have probably been deleted, but you can still find it on their news archive. This shit was DEFINATELY not cool. Threatening legal action adn trying to act like he owned TCP/IP was something we'll never forgive him for, simply because he refused to drop the case. We gave him a chance to drop it and remove the post - he knows til this day none of that crap is true.
4. Could I remind ness that you apparently attempted to take down our website? Why should I respect anybody who wants to do that?
5. Users who come from our forums have that choice. Just like you claim your OS tunnel will offer "choices" that we somehow don't offer at XLink, our users are free to join any forum on their own free will and post whatever they like. I could also remind you of hte time we got slaughtered on our forums by someone's spambot telling us to "STAY THE F*** ON YOUR OWN FORUMS". (THis came after I posted a "controversial" post on the WP forums, only to find Chad feel I'd caught him out and get banned within 2 minutes).
The bashing comes because you come from WP, where a lot of the users have been brainwashed by Chad (because so many people listen to his every word) and still think we somehow "stole" non-existant code. Yeah right..
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