#31339 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:32 am
| Quote: |
Future Potential
* Unlimited
* "Another way of looking at it is that it would be possible for someone who has a wireless router in their home to use the DS to link up with the Internet and an instant message service." - Shigeru Miyamoto talking about the flexibility and potential of the Nintendo DS.
|
http://www.muchmusic.com/promo/nintendo04%5Fds/features_future.asp
#31344 - Darkain - Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:35 am
| manicdvln wrote: |
| Quote: | Future Potential
* Unlimited
* "Another way of looking at it is that it would be possible for someone who has a wireless router in their home to use the DS to link up with the Internet and an instant message service." - Shigeru Miyamoto talking about the flexibility and potential of the Nintendo DS.
|
http://www.muchmusic.com/promo/nintendo04%5Fds/features_future.asp |
it has been known for quite a long time that nintendo wants to take games to the internet... however, each game has to support it. current software titles will not be playable online w/o the use of 3rd party tunneling, such as xlink.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31374 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:25 pm
Chad at warppipe just confirmed that DS will indeed go officially online.
I dunno if he is a credible source but everyone seems to believe him.
Xlink project is going very slowly and limited. They haven't released DS tunneling software and restricting people to get a specific router with a modded firmware to play tunneled lan games.
That is quite dissapointing, might as well people wait for the real thing than waste money.
Hopefully, the other tunneling groups will do a better job.
#31407 - Darkain - Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:04 pm
| manicdvln wrote: |
Chad at warppipe just confirmed that DS will indeed go officially online.
I dunno if he is a credible source but everyone seems to believe him.
Xlink project is going very slowly and limited. They haven't released DS tunneling software and restricting people to get a specific router with a modded firmware to play tunneled lan games.
That is quite dissapointing, might as well people wait for the real thing than waste money.
Hopefully, the other tunneling groups will do a better job. |
no, that is just the start from xlink. the DS's wireless communication isnt the easiest thing in the world to work with. check out to cracking the DS's wireless thread. outside of the WRT routers, there is only 2 other network cards that anyone has gotten to communicate with the DS yet. more will come in time.
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#31413 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:38 pm
My cisco setup sees DS with network stumbler with no problems.
#31414 - RiZeUp - Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:40 pm
it sees the DS but can it communicate with it?
Two completly different things.
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#31415 - Darkain - Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:46 pm
| manicdvln wrote: |
| My cisco setup sees DS with network stumbler with no problems. |
sending raw 802.11 frames is much MUCH more diffacult then receiving 802.11 frames.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31416 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:48 pm
How can i find out? Besdies, when the official online service comes out, games using online capability will work on all wireless routers. So i don't see why people are hacking DS lan protocols. It's like being impatient. Just wait guys.
#31424 - tepples - Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:28 pm
| manicdvln wrote: |
| How can i find out? Besdies, when the official online service comes out, games using online capability will work on all wireless routers. |
But will games that don't use online capability be updated to use online capability? And will the online service cost per month like the Xbox's does?
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#31430 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:02 pm
I think I heard somewhere that nintendo does ever go online, they have no intention to charge people for it.
#31431 - Darkain - Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:12 pm
| manicdvln wrote: |
| How can i find out? Besdies, when the official online service comes out, games using online capability will work on all wireless routers. So i don't see why people are hacking DS lan protocols. It's like being impatient. Just wait guys. |
2 reasons
1) online support is on a game by game basis. not the DS as a whole. each game has to specifically be programmed to support internet play. notice how things like PSO work online, but double dash doesnt?
2) WMB. we crack the code, we run OUR code. this isnt just about playing multiplayer online, this is about MAKING games. notice how this is GBA Dev and DS Dev? that means software development for the hand held device itself, not just external hacking tools.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31437 - manicdvln - Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:46 pm
Darkain I completely understand your 2nd point.
What I am saying people buying new routers and update firmware, connec to pc to run application all those complications, just so they will find stars with mario is kina retarded.
But I am 100% supportive on developpers side in making bootloaders, custom software uplaods and even the most interesting project that ties wtih yours is mini gui linux OS.
That is cool and even know ppl when that indeed happen, they will buy DS just for using it as a alternative PDA. But we wont see that for quite some time.
#31481 - merlinds - Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:13 am
| Quote: |
| Xlink project is going very slowly and limited. |
It's been 3 weeks since the DS came out. I wouldn't call that slow. Can you name any other groups that have actually tunneled the DS yet?
Err no I didn't think so.
Anyways for me personally, if I can play Metroid Prime : Hunters in a few weeks over the internet -using tunneling- it will be worth the $45 for a new router, instead of waiting for both Nintendo to get its ass in gear and allow online play and to release an internet able version of metroid.
#31488 - Darkain - Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:12 am
| manicdvln wrote: |
| is kina retarded. |
look... we do what we love, ok? some people actually love to go way out of their way to get that little extra umph out of what ever it is that they may have in life.
i... am one of those people...
i want 100% total control over every device that i have, and ive been programming customized apps for my devices for years now. the DS is no exception for this either.
if you dont like it, then please keep quiet about it, ok? i would rather not want to see other potential developers out there be discouraged from exploring the possibilities just because someone else thinks it may be "retarded". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=retarded
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31489 - kaeru23frog - Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:18 am
| merlinds wrote: |
| Quote: | | Xlink project is going very slowly and limited. |
It's been 3 weeks since the DS came out. I wouldn't call that slow. Can you name any other groups that have actually tunneled the DS yet?
Err no I didn't think so.
Anyways for me personally, if I can play Metroid Prime : Hunters in a few weeks over the internet -using tunneling- it will be worth the $45 for a new router, instead of waiting for both Nintendo to get its ass in gear and allow online play and to release an internet able version of metroid. |
You never know, they may be planning online play for the full version. Are you really going to pay $45 to play a demo online? Hey, if you want to, that's awesome, and if they don't include online play in the final version, you'd be well justified in your investment. Metroid multiplayer rocks.
I must say though, a few weeks seems like an optimistic estimation of when tunneled online play will be... err... playable. Hey, we can keep our fingers crossed though :)
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#31490 - manicdvln - Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:30 am
| Darkain wrote: |
| manicdvln wrote: | | is kina retarded. |
look... we do what we love, ok? some people actually love to go way out of their way to get that little extra umph out of what ever it is that they may have in life.
i... am one of those people...
i want 100% total control over every device that i have, and ive been programming customized apps for my devices for years now. the DS is no exception for this either.
if you dont like it, then please keep quiet about it, ok? i would rather not want to see other potential developers out there be discouraged from exploring the possibilities just because someone else thinks it may be "retarded". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=retarded |
I sincrely doubt any xlink developer would be demoralised since they always fighthing with other groups has become nasty, especially with warppipe.
Anyways, I hope the best in all of you.
Thanks for this informative discussion.
#31510 - Hajaz - Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:24 pm
the fact is that xlink is in competition with every other tunneling group out there, becoz we support every platform.
its easy for XBC, Warppipe and Nitro to go recommending eachother to users and giving eachother pats on the back. theyre all aiming for a different userbase anyway.
#31511 - bobbobbobbob - Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:44 pm
#31521 - Darkain - Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:24 pm
| manicdvln wrote: |
| I sincrely doubt any xlink developer would be demoralised since they always fighthing with other groups has become nasty, especially with warppipe. |
i wasnt talking about xlink, i was talking about potential developers that may be visiting this forum, since this is the home-brew development community's home for hand-held gaming.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31522 - dagamer34 - Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:25 pm
I am still quite skeptical of any tunnelling efforts at the moment. Nothing has been extensively proven to work at the moment, so all we know they could be lying, though it's not likely for that to be the case.
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#31525 - Boeboe - Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:36 pm
I'd like to believe them, but the claim that they will make it work with ANY wireless card/adapter makes it quite hard :/
#31526 - Darkain - Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:45 pm
| Boeboe wrote: |
| I'd like to believe them, but the claim that they will make it work with ANY wireless card/adapter makes it quite hard :/ |
i can tell you with at least 80% certainty that it will *not* work on all wireless hardware. packets are modified by the hardware itself, and on some cards, to the point that the DS wont recognize them anymore. this is my #1 stumbling block right now before i can further development.... i need a new wireless card.
_________________
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#31730 - Alex Atkin UK - Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:15 am
Im pretty sure of that too. Im no programmer but I remember reading that some wireless cards cut corners, as they only need to support certain modes, not the low-level functions you need to communicate using a different protocol.
Anyone who would claim something works on ALL hardware is either really nieve or lying. Even when it comes to standard PC hardware you can find things that simply will not work despite the fact that technically they should do. I have had RAM that simply does NOT work reliably in certain boards despite working perfectly in others. Now considering that, add the fact that not all wireless cards support the same functions (theres a lot more scope for differences than in a RAM stick) then you'd be crazy to make such a claim.
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#31761 - netdroid9 - Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:01 am
Yeah, that REALLY ticks me off. I go buy a video card, and I see it goes up to 1600X<I can't remember what :(>. I buy a second hand monitor when my original one dies and guess what? It works on 1024X<Whatever it is...> (I used to use that res, untill I ran out of monitor real estate). Problem was, I couldn't configure it, the thing was designed for 800X600 with other resolutions added later.
#31763 - dagamer34 - Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:21 am
| netdroid9 wrote: |
| Yeah, that REALLY ticks me off. I go buy a video card, and I see it goes up to 1600X<I can't remember what :(>. I buy a second hand monitor when my original one dies and guess what? It works on 1024X<Whatever it is...> (I used to use that res, untill I ran out of monitor real estate). Problem was, I couldn't configure it, the thing was designed for 800X600 with other resolutions added later. |
Relevance? A huge leap of faith to make your story and the thread connect?
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#31765 - netdroid9 - Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:28 am
None (What is this... relevance that you speak of? I know not of relevance :P). But maybe the game makers cut down on piracy protection and instead went the way of amiga anticopy. Bad CD tracks that were never exactly the same, but on a silicon level.
#32482 - domomike - Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:31 am
It would be pretty sweet if they release a version of PicoChat for the Mac/PC so you can chat with your friends.
#32486 - Boeboe - Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:31 am
yeah, some kind of messenger service with a centralised server, and when someone in your list is online, you can click on his name and chat with him, that would definetly be cool
....oh wait
#32487 - djemergency - Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:38 am
| Boeboe wrote: |
yeah, some kind of messenger service with a centralised server, and when someone in your list is online, you can click on his name and chat with him, that would definetly be cool
....oh wait |
Well Nintendo could possably come out with a chat update. who knows what nintendo has in thier heads
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#32516 - telamon - Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:47 pm
| domomike wrote: |
| It would be pretty sweet if they release a version of PicoChat for the Mac/PC so you can chat with your friends. |
If you're talking about pc->pc pictochat-concept then technically there are already lots of nice stuff out there:
openCanvas v1.1bxx, it's only the freeware beta that has networking support. http://google.com?q=oC11b72 ( my favorite ;))
http://www.mess.be has som form of msn-plugin that makes you able to well "pictochat" with your friends, and they don't even need the plugin to see your images. I think is the closest thing to pictochat there is ATM.
And then you have them java written paint-chats.
And i guess this is slightly off topic...
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#32573 - netdroid9 - Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:29 am
| telamon wrote: |
| domomike wrote: | | It would be pretty sweet if they release a version of PicoChat for the Mac/PC so you can chat with your friends. |
If you're talking about pc->pc pictochat-concept then technically there are already lots of nice stuff out there:
openCanvas v1.1bxx, it's only the freeware beta that has networking support. http://google.com?q=oC11b72 ( my favorite ;))
http://www.mess.be has som form of msn-plugin that makes you able to well "pictochat" with your friends, and they don't even need the plugin to see your images. I think is the closest thing to pictochat there is ATM.
And then you have them java written paint-chats.
And i guess this is slightly off topic... |
Thats the ink redistrobutables (Used by Tablet PCs), need MSN7 I think to have it without a plugin. *Waits patiently for more stuff, and can't be bothered to tell microsoft how easy it is to exploit their pay2use package distrobution system to spurt out paid stuff. No, I haven't told any pirates. No, I won't tell you either. No, I havn't stolen any yet.*
#33637 - SINdicate - Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:31 am
i think we are all going in 2 sepparate ways, i explain myself
(1)there are the people who wants to tunel all the packets over the internet to create an "emulated DS playground" and on the other and there are the people who wants to:
(2)have the DS able to communicate over the internet, using the WiFi standards now we have to figure out (3) if the DS support two network protocols in the BIOS (or the network card firmware??)
(could somebody please find out who makes the DS wireless chips?)
im pretty sure the firmware or bios SUPPORT BOTH already we just need to know how to enable it
(picture of the wireless chip)
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
it'll all go so faster when the ds cartridges are hacked but so far i am impressed with the developement going on for the DS its so great to see all this people motivated to play metroid online or just scramble email or IM over their gameboy keep up the good work guys!!
#33647 - Darkain - Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:38 am
| SINdicate wrote: |
i think we are all going in 2 sepparate ways, i explain myself
(1)there are the people who wants to tunel all the packets over the internet to create an "emulated DS playground" and on the other and there are the people who wants to:
(2)have the DS able to communicate over the internet, using the WiFi standards now we have to figure out (3) if the DS support two network protocols in the BIOS (or the network card firmware??)
(could somebody please find out who makes the DS wireless chips?)
im pretty sure the firmware or bios SUPPORT BOTH already we just need to know how to enable it
(picture of the wireless chip)
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
it'll all go so faster when the ds cartridges are hacked but so far i am impressed with the developement going on for the DS its so great to see all this people motivated to play metroid online or just scramble email or IM over their gameboy keep up the good work guys!! |
i think you need to go read the 20+ page thread on the wireless networking of the DS, and understand the OSI model.. and then you would know that the physical link layer is the same between "NiFi" and "TCP/IP" on the DS.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#33650 - Sebbo - Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:38 am
| Quote: |
| Wireless Communication: IEEE 802.11 and Nintendo's proprietary format |
Source: Nintendo Australia
the DS definantly has the option to use standard WiFi protocol if the developers choose, and Nintendo themselves were talking about using ordinary hotspots for online play etc.[/quote]
#33656 - mtg101 - Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:05 pm
| Sebbo wrote: |
| Quote: | | Wireless Communication: IEEE 802.11 and Nintendo's proprietary format |
Source: Nintendo Australia
the DS definantly has the option to use standard WiFi protocol if the developers choose, and Nintendo themselves were talking about using ordinary hotspots for online play etc. |
I think it would help if people read Darkain's short article on the DS's wireless system:
http://www.darkain.com/portability.php?portid=1&page=9
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#33673 - crazyc - Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:24 pm
| Quote: |
| im pretty sure the firmware or bios SUPPORT BOTH already we just need to know how to enable it |
I'd be surprised if it wasn't softmac.
#33716 - Sebbo - Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:28 am
mtg101, i know darkain has done lots of work with the wireless networking side of the DS, i'm just putting something a little more official up (just look at the anti-aliasing topic to see how just "hunches" and appearances can change the course of the thread)
not trying flame or anything ^_^
#33718 - Darkain - Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:00 am
| Sebbo wrote: |
mtg101, i know darkain has done lots of work with the wireless networking side of the DS, i'm just putting something a little more official up (just look at the anti-aliasing topic to see how just "hunches" and appearances can change the course of the thread)
not trying flame or anything ^_^ |
and if you read what i wrote, i specifically mention that nintendos protocol is a layer 3-7 protocol, not a layer 1-2 protocol such as WiFi. its a layer ontop of wifi, not an alternative.
nintendo says "IEEE 802.11 and Nintendo's proprietary format"... which could be the same as saying "IEEE 802.11 and TCP/IP" for the PSP, as it uses the layer 1-2 of 802.11, and layers 3 and up from the TCP/IP spec.
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#33719 - mymateo - Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:03 am
Welcome to the Dark side... I couldn't resist...
And since I'm here...
| Quote: |
| not trying flame or anything |
Looking at this phrase out of context, and using it purely as a joke aimed at nobody...
If you flame an idiot, does that make them a flaming idiot? What if you're the idiot, and you're flaming someone? Then you'd be a flaming idiot too! The lesson is this... if we don't play nice, we're all a bunch of flaming idiots! (lol, sorry... couldn't resist)
#33720 - Sebbo - Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:41 am
mayb we're taking different meanings of "and" here.
what i'm suggesting is that the DS can communicate in both NiFi and WiFi, just depending on what the software calls for. not much point in me argueing this case until we see games that do it tho
call me amateur, or inexperienced or whatever, i'm just gonna let it slide
#33721 - mtg101 - Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:50 pm
| Sebbo wrote: |
mayb we're taking different meanings of "and" here.
what i'm suggesting is that the DS can communicate in both NiFi and WiFi, just depending on what the software calls for. not much point in me argueing this case until we see games that do it tho
call me amateur, or inexperienced or whatever, i'm just gonna let it slide |
Unless you know something the US FCC doesn't, the DS is "a portable game machine with a Wireless 802.11 transceiver operating in the 2400-2483.5
MHz band with 13 channels." See: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=483389&native_or_pdf=pdf (thanks to Darkain for the link from his website).
So there's only 802.11 wireless hardware in the DS. If there was another wireless system in there the US FCC would have listed it and tested it (oh... unless of course it was pigeon based http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149).
So for layers 1 & 2 of the OSI protocol stack, the DS uses 802.11. 802.11 doesn't specify anything about layers 3-7, so developers are free to use any layer 3-7 protocols they desire. Nintendo have decided to go with a proprietory format, rather than the common IPv4/TCP we're used to using in our desktops & laptops.
There's nothing to stop Nintendo, or 3rd parties (or hackers like us once we can run code on the DS) writing different layer 3-7 protocols. I'm hoping the delay in the release of Animal Crossing DS is so they can add TCP/IP comms to it so it can be player over the net out of the box.
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#33722 - Sebbo - Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:24 pm
| mtg101 wrote: |
| There's nothing to stop Nintendo, or 3rd parties (or hackers like us once we can run code on the DS) writing different layer 3-7 protocols. I'm hoping the delay in the release of Animal Crossing DS is so they can add TCP/IP comms to it so it can be player over the net out of the box. |
That was part of my point...that and that nintendo has been saying that you can use normal hotspots for online play with the DS. The switch for the different protocols might even be sitting inside the DS already, but we won't know until we get some 2nd or 3rd gen titles using TCP
#33733 - Darkain - Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:52 pm
| Sebbo wrote: |
| mtg101 wrote: | | There's nothing to stop Nintendo, or 3rd parties (or hackers like us once we can run code on the DS) writing different layer 3-7 protocols. I'm hoping the delay in the release of Animal Crossing DS is so they can add TCP/IP comms to it so it can be player over the net out of the box. |
That was part of my point...that and that nintendo has been saying that you can use normal hotspots for online play with the DS. The switch for the different protocols might even be sitting inside the DS already, but we won't know until we get some 2nd or 3rd gen titles using TCP |
no, it isnt inside the DS. it has to be implemented software side. communication protocols on the higher layers arent hardware implemented, and i highly doubt the BIOS has the functions for a TCP stack, exspecially considering the lack of titles to use such a feature.
_________________
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http://www.darkain.com
DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#33735 - Seiru - Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:29 pm
You know, upgrades to the Xbox dashboard are contained in newer games, the updates just install when you first play the games. Theoretically, couldn't Nintendo do the same thing with DS games?
#33737 - em4853 - Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:07 pm
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Xlink project is going very slowly and limited. |
It's been 3 weeks since the DS came out. I wouldn't call that slow. Can you name any other groups that have actually tunneled the DS yet?
Err no I didn't think so.
|
No, other groups haven't actually tunneled the DS yet, but I DO see groups that have tunneled (Xlink), which was released at esentially the same time, so don't make wild and crazy statements.
#33741 - dagamer34 - Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:37 am
| Darkain wrote: |
| Sebbo wrote: | | mtg101 wrote: | | There's nothing to stop Nintendo, or 3rd parties (or hackers like us once we can run code on the DS) writing different layer 3-7 protocols. I'm hoping the delay in the release of Animal Crossing DS is so they can add TCP/IP comms to it so it can be player over the net out of the box. |
That was part of my point...that and that nintendo has been saying that you can use normal hotspots for online play with the DS. The switch for the different protocols might even be sitting inside the DS already, but we won't know until we get some 2nd or 3rd gen titles using TCP |
no, it isnt inside the DS. it has to be implemented software side. communication protocols on the higher layers arent hardware implemented, and i highly doubt the BIOS has the functions for a TCP stack, exspecially considering the lack of titles to use such a feature. |
But then again, what launch party game would need to use WiFi in the first place. No online system has been announced with a set date in mind, and since NiFi is designed to cut down on power-consumption, it would just be better to use that instead.
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Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#33743 - Darkain - Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:00 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| But then again, what launch party game would need to use WiFi in the first place. No online system has been announced with a set date in mind, and since NiFi is designed to cut down on power-consumption, it would just be better to use that instead. |
there isnt a power consumption difference between nintendo's high layer protocols and the TCP protocol. the reason why it is battery saving, is that it limits RX and TX rates. this means it can output with less power, and it has less sensitivity on receive. the higher layer protocols such as "NiFi" and TCP have nothing to do with this. does your laptop use any more/less power switching between IPv4, IPv6, NetBEUI, IPX? no! because in the end, they all translate down to basic 802.11 frames w/ accompanied data. the 802.11 layers know no difference.
also, TCP is internet server irrelevent. look at the PSP. it uses TCP/IPv4 with a ad-hoc 802.11 connection, if i remember correctly. this doesnt translate to "requires an internet server for multiplayer", it translates to "just another high layer protocol"
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DarkStar for Nintendo DS
#33753 - tepples - Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:42 am
| Darkain wrote: |
| does your laptop use any more/less power switching between IPv4, IPv6, NetBEUI, IPX? no! |
Because the screen, the CPU, and the hard drive take up a lot more power. I'd imagine that something may require longer packets or more packets to express in UDP than in Ni-Fi.
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#33758 - kerrle - Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:27 am
Actually, UDP isn't that bad; it's got far less overhead than, say TCP. You can't trim much off of UDP and still remain useable; already UDP has very little ability to check for missing packets and such compared to TCP.
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