#33256 - Angry_Monk - Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:56 am
i dont actaully have a DS yet but i plan to get one once i know i can do a lot of stuff with it, but in the mean time i came up with this idea that i'd like to throw out to all the people that know how the DS works electronically.
is it posible to build an interface via the GBA slot on the DS that will allow for a ps/2 or USB mouse hook-up? this would be great for FPS or RTS games, but it would require a table and a mouse, so dont expect to be playing this on the go. in my opinion it seems posible due to the mouse having a simple interface ( http://computer.howstuffworks.com/mouse3.htm ) and the GBA slot/cartrig being very versatile. if they could make a camera for the GB/GBPocket/GBColor they it is sure posible to make a mouse hook-up for the DS. think about it... i'm sure someone could make one, if your someone with the know-how that would otherwise be sitting around doing nothing then try this out, now you have a purpose.
#33257 - netdroid9 - Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:58 am
Well, the problem is, what would use it? Drivers would be needed.
#33265 - Dib - Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:42 am
So let me make sure I'm understanding you right: you want to add a mouse to a handheld which already has a touch screen?
Wait, allow me to rephrase: you want to add a mouse to a handheld which already has a touch screen?
Let me try this one more time: you want to add a mouse to a handheld which already has a touch screen?!!!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!111!
#33268 - tepples - Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:49 am
Why would I plug a mouse into my laptop which already has a touchpad?
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#33271 - mymateo - Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:46 am
Well, a mouse has a much different feel to it. I can use a mouse for hours, whilst a touchpad gets tiresome relatively quickly. Also, a mouse works by tracking movement, as does a touchpad, whilst the touchscreen works by simply touching where you want to "click". There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to having a mouse with the DS, but seriously... the mouse (unless you get a very tiny one) is almost the size of the DS itself, and most mouses need a surface to track on. True, there are handheld trackball mouses, but for all the trouble, my vote is against a DS compatible mouse.
That's my $0.02
#33280 - Boeboe - Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:09 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Why would I plug a mouse into my laptop which already has a touchpad? |
on a laptop it would actually be useful indeed, but adding a mouse to the DS really would take away the "portable" factor.
#33292 - Alex Atkin UK - Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:28 pm
What an odd idea, I found that Metroid with the thumbstrap FELT like a mouse. In fact in some ways it felt BETTER than a mouse because it was like using a joypad but with the precision control of using a mouse. The only problem was getting the thumbstrap to stay put on my thumb for any length of time.
When I read the subject of this thread I thought you were meaning something else which WOULD make kinda sense. An adapter that allows you to use the DS hooked up to a PC "AS A MOUSE".
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#33296 - wrath_child - Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:03 pm
Personaly i love the feel of a mouse compared to touch screen. FPS are so much easyier with a mouse. at the moment i would not buy metoid when it comes out beacuse of the controles but would if i had a mouse.
| Quote: |
| on a laptop it would actually be useful indeed, but adding a mouse to the DS really would take away the "portable" factor |
It isent takeing away the portablity its adding funcitonaly. but when adding linux it would also help.
#33303 - Boeboe - Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:12 pm
| wrath_child wrote: |
Personaly i love the feel of a mouse compared to touch screen. FPS are so much easyier with a mouse. at the moment i would not buy metoid when it comes out beacuse of the controles but would if i had a mouse.
| Quote: | | on a laptop it would actually be useful indeed, but adding a mouse to the DS really would take away the "portable" factor |
It isent takeing away the portablity its adding funcitonaly. but when adding linux it would also help. |
how in hell do you see yourself playing metroid on the DS with a mouse??? just imagine the sight.
#33323 - Angry_Monk - Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:43 pm
i think most of you are missing my point.... while adding a mouse WILL take away portability and in SOME ways will mimic the touch screen, it will add better control (if you preffer the mouse as opposed to a touch screen, like me) (i have a pda, i know... for FPS touch screen w/ button pressing just is not confortable). and you wont need drivers, unless you get a very complicated USB mouse, otherwise a regular ps/2 mouse would not require drivers.
i compair this to a laptop: a laptop is meant for portability/mobility (unless its the Dell inspiron XPS) which is why it has its own keyboard, touch mouse, and display. but those may not be the best for playing games (try playing a FPS on a laptop w/ a small touch mouse... again i have tried, not good...). this is why people buy external mice, keyboards, and posibly displays (massive 42" LCD displays...oh yes...).
all i am saying is that a mouse would be better for a FPS, it always have been for most. so why not hook a mouse up to the DS? people have lan parties, DS people have WAN parties, if you brought a mouse with you all you would need is a table to play on... is that so hard? think about the trade off: need a flat surface, and as a result, get better game play handling. and if you cant find a table, or dont want to bring the mouse, THEN DONT BRING IT and use your DS the normal way.
as a final note: i am a big fan of mice, and i believe the problem with console systems (xbox/ps2) is that they rely on mini joysticks instead of mice for FPS. this is why i jot the smart joy frag for my xbox, it allows for a keyboard/mouse input instead of the regular controller. halo 2 turned from non-playable into pure fun. add in the fact that it can be programmed and it turns into a sub-god-like figure to me!
#33330 - Gatchers - Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:07 am
Of course a PS/2 interface would require drivers!!! Why on earth would you think it wouldn't? It's a serial interface protocol which would need software support, let alone the hardware. Similarly, a serial mouse - supporting USB would be more complicated as you say, what with adding a complete USB stack and all and implementing this in such a way that the game wouldn't know about it, but hell, we may as well go the whole hog...
Touch screen interfaces work by reading an X/Y sample which is usually the result of an AD conversion. PC touch screen interfaces have drivers which turn this into a fake mouse input.
And although it wouldn't matter for Metroid, we'd have to implement a cursor too for most other games so we knew where we were on the screen.
I suspect this is one of the more unlikely projects.
#33341 - AdamtehGreat - Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:12 am
The whole touch screen idea was to make the user have more control (much like a mouse). One of the key factors for my buying this (apart from the online gaming, possibility of RSS feeds/web browsing etc) was so I could play FPS's on this system withoug the clunky feel of an analogue stick.
I think Its a redundant idea. Kinda like adding a surround sound system to the DS...
#33346 - mymateo - Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:48 am
| Angry_Monk wrote: |
| i think most of you are missing my point.... while adding a mouse WILL take away portability and in SOME ways will mimic the touch screen, it will add better control (if you preffer the mouse as opposed to a touch screen, like me) |
I don't know, preference doesn't change the fact that on a touch screen you just tap where you want to aim, whereas with a mouse you have to move it. To me, it seems like it won't matter how much you prefer the mouse, the touchscreen is more accurate, especially since with a mouse you always have to pick it up and move it because it tracks differently.
Besides that, I think Nintendo built the DS with the idea of keeping the most common features built-in, instead of having to buy a separate mic (like GameCube) or wireless adapter (like GBA). I think that would be because more people will buy a game that doesn't require extra hardware vs. games that end up costing up to twice as much because you have to spend another $20 to $50 just to be able to play it. As is the case here with the mouse, it's likely that Nintendo would prefer to avoid such periferals for the time being because it's just that much more work for developers to include support. I mean, they (developers) already have a full plate with all the great new DS features.
And that's my $0.02
(Gee, that line is turning into a sig for me... but I'm NOT throwing away my cool little DS sig!)
#33350 - Angry_Monk - Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:02 am
well, looks like i'm fighting a loosing battle...oh well, i still think its a good idea.
Gatchers: i guess your right, it would require "drivers", but by "drivers" i was thinking you were talking ones for each type of mouse. i was more thinking just one small piece of code that would read the bytes sent by the mouse and input them into the DS by making them look like signals from the touch screen. it would only work for regular mice and not fancy ones.
then again, this was just an idea, nothing special. it was just the kind of thing you would try if you were bored. i'd still like to try to make it, if i ever learn all the coding know-how and the electronics of the DS.
#33364 - xabib - Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:11 pm
I have a better idea than that. Why not use the touch screen of the DS as a Drawing tablet for the PC. Its a small one yeah but that would be more useful than the other way round.
#33367 - AdamtehGreat - Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:58 pm
i considered that idea, but quickly dismissed it due to the fact that WACOMs are used to add detail, and refine brushes/strokes. The fact is, the DS's touchscreen would be useless as a wacom due to its size; a mouse would be far more accurate.
#33390 - Dib - Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:53 pm
| mymateo wrote: |
| I don't know, preference doesn't change the fact that on a touch screen you just tap where you want to aim, whereas with a mouse you have to move it. To me, it seems like it won't matter how much you prefer the mouse, the touchscreen is more accurate, especially since with a mouse you always have to pick it up and move it because it tracks differently. |
You don't even own a DS, do you? Because what you're saying isn't even remotely similar to how the DS actually plays.
Try the Metroid demo using the Dpad+stylus control scheme. Do you tap the touchscreen? No, you move the pen across the touchscreen because it works as a directional aim...exactly as if it were a mouse.
Play Feel the Magic. In many of the games such as the "Bull" fight, it's necessary to tap the screen in ways the mouse could never, ever accomplish. In other games like the unicycle, you use the touch screen to drag the unicycle across the highwire...exactly as if it were a mouse.
Play Mario 64 DS. Could you replicate the virtual joystick using a mouse? Hell no. The entire point is that it straps on your thumb in order to simulate a joystick, and using a mouse would never ever work for this function.
The only thing this guy is suggesting is taking a handheld device, tethering it to a peripheral which would remove the handheld aspect from it--requiring you to be seated somewhere such as a table or desk (as even he stated)--and the only reason being to give the DS functionality which it already has in the one case and wouldn't work in all the others.
It's not so much that the project idea falls under "will never get done", but is incredibly stupid in it's redundancy (and I wouldn't usually call people's ideas stupid if there's at least thought behind it.)
#33394 - Angry_Monk - Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:44 pm
Dib: are you even reading what i said??? i'm not saying we replace the touch screen i'm just saying that *IN SOME CASES* a mouse might be better than the touch screen (putting it another way, a mouse would give you more area to mimic the tap and drag on a touch screen, it could allow for left and right clicks, and also a middle click and scroll up/down... can you do this easily with a touch screen?? all that would just be key re-mapping). and the mouse would be unplugable, meaning you could *unplug* it when it is not convenient to use. god... some people just keep saying the same d@mn thing: "its redundant to have a mouse when you have a touch screen", "a mouse would take away from the mobility of the DS"... to the people that said this: you all are acting as if I and going to do this to your DS, and its like your taking offence to it. this idea would be for those who want it, and who preffer the mouse to a touch screen. it would only take away the mobility when the mouse is plugged in (take the half second to unplug it and your mobile again). and the trade off of a table for greater game play is acceptable to ME (when your at home, NOT on the go, etc, get the picture?).
as i said before, i have a keyboard and mouse for my xbox, i need a table to play on that as well. in my opion the mini joystick that they expect you to play FPS with on the xbox is crap, so i rather a table in front of my tv than not being able to play the game.
#33403 - AdamtehGreat - Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:13 am
and also, the Metroid E3 demo has the 'tap where you want to shoot' scheme.
This sheme can also he accessed in the demo.
#33408 - Alex Atkin UK - Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:05 am
But why would anyone bother to the play the DS where you have to sit up to desk? In fact, have you TRIED looking at the DS screen when resting on a desk, its not easy. If it WASNT resting on the desk, well try holding the DS in one hand and holding a mouse in the other - its quite a feat.
The whole point I would think is that you play the DS where you wouldnt be able to play with a keyboard/mouse. If you want a keyboard/mouse, play on the PC. Sooner or later there WILL be an emulator which will most likely do what you want, seeing as clearly what you want is NOT the DS.
Next you will be suggesting plugging a PS2 pad into the PSP.
I really dont see the point here, the touchscreen acts totally like a mouse. You have left and right clicking already (L and R side buttons). Any other buttons you need are already assigned as icons on the touch screen.
Anyway, at the end of the day theres no real practical use for this so its never gonna happen. Why make a PS/2 or USB adapter (which would have go into the GBA slot and somehow override the touchscreen, which probably cant be done without hacking the game ROM) and so would cost a fair bit of time and money to produce. If you want that functionality you'd have to do it yourself, or wait for the DS emulators to come along.
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#33420 - mymateo - Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:59 am
| Dib wrote: |
| You don't even own a DS, do you? Because what you're saying isn't even remotely similar to how the DS actually plays. |
First hunt has both an aim-and-shoot (mouse) option, AND a tap-where-you-want-to-shoot option.
The unicycle minigame in FTM xy/xx, which I can only assume you haven't bothered to test your argument out on before posting, is NOT a click-and-drag style like a mouse as you can't just move your stylus across the screen at any location (like you can in SMB64DS Shell Smash mini-game... check it out). Instead, the little guy moves to wherever your stylus is, as long as it's within a few feet of him (roughly 1/4 to 1/2" on the screen itself). So no, you can't just tap at the end of each beam and have him cycle it perfectly, but neither does the minigame REQUIRE you slide the stylus at ANY point.
| Quote: |
| Play Feel the Magic. In many of the games such as the "Bull" fight, it's necessary to tap the screen in ways the mouse could never, ever accomplish. |
I wonder if you know how a mouse works, because that game would be mind-numbingly simple to program in mouse support. "Never, ever"? NOW who sounds like "what you're saying isn't even remotely similar to how the [mouse] actually plays". Imagine, if you will, a Quake game where you can't walk, just aim, and there are bulls charging at you. When you move your gun, your head stays still so the view doesn't change. But because you have a laser sight, you can see a red dot wherever your hyper-charged plasma disruptor will cause death and suffering. Sounds pretty easy, and Quake is very much a game I (and many people) use a mouse to play.
If you (the general you, I'm talking to everyone here) must insist on calling someone a liar, or disproving their theory, or in any way putting your word against theirs, it's always best to do some research first. Peace, and no hard feelings.
#33423 - Sebbo - Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:30 am
he said that the unicycle game works like a mouse, b/c its basically click-and-drag. but u were right about the bull one mymateo, just u'll need a cursor so u know where the mouse is pointing
to include a full mouse with the ds thru the gba port...with existing games u'll need to intercept the code from the ds slot and stick in the little bits of code for the mouse
i'd say the tablet idea isn't too bad. have an overview of the entire image on the top screen and a little box showing what the touch screen is looking at, use the d-pad to scroll around and u can easily work on fine details (shoulder buttons to adjust zoom, mayb?) tricking the pc into thinking the ds is a peripheral and not a networked computer through wireless lan might b a bit hard tho
a little off-topic...when i saw the topic heading, i thought someone was talking about trying to write our own code to harness the touch screen as a trial step, ah well
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