#34351 - AP - Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:08 pm
First off, all information should be free...
Second off, I have the official Nintendo DS SDK...
If I can help any flash ROM builders with information I will...
That's it :)
AP
#34357 - B10H4Z4RD - Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:31 pm
Hear, Hear, Open Scource for all!!!
Were on earth did you get one of those, can we see pics?
_________________
There Are No Stupid Questions, But There Are A Lot Of Inquisitive Idiots.
#34359 - AP - Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:40 pm
It's the SDK without the dev kit... But it does have an emu for debugging. Metroworks for compiling (which I've got running with the emu). All the tools and docs. So in short I can build a ROM...
The reason why I want to release this is so we can have a flash linker up and running nice and pronto.
:)
AP
#34362 - Tim Schuerewegen - Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:03 pm
*cough* illegal *cough*
#34363 - JesusXP - Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:14 pm
sure man, convince him not to do it, be without a DS devkit....
#34368 - AP - Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:30 pm
I have been advised that I could be in big illegal trouble from nintendo if I release the SDK and it gets traced back to me...
As far as I can see, the only way this gets traced back to me is from my email address, which I gave to this forum... What is the the policy of this forum if nintendo start demanding my address?
#34369 - Boeboe - Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:53 pm
this topic will probably get deleted (for your own good), but the best way would be by NOT posting that on a public forum :p
#34371 - tepples - Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:24 pm
Don't do it.
Any links to official Nintendo documentation in violation of a Nintendo non-disclosure agreement will be BAL33TED.
I'm giving people one last chance to make their arguments before the lock.
Heck, my GBA header file doesn't even use the official register names.
EDIT: AP has PM'd me, claiming that (s)he no longer intends to distribute NDA'd information.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
Last edited by tepples on Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
#34373 - ravuya - Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:39 pm
Yeah, if you violate your NDA you can be reamed in about a million creative ways across the globe. Nintendo has a huge legal team.
Besides, I'd rather be using an SDK without the stigma of being ripped off from the developer (similar to the XDK ripoffs in early XBox land).
_________________
Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#34382 - tssf - Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:52 pm
I think most people here would rather develop for the system in a legal open-source way than to use illegal documentation/development tools.
The thing is, anything could be created with this SDK, but none of it could be legally distributed for free. That's pretty much why everyone wants to go the reverse-engineering way and do it themselves so Nintendo doesn't come after them.
That's my guess, though.
#34400 - abigsmurf - Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:31 am
There are a few ways they can trace leaks of SDK's
deliberate typos, alternative wording of sentences, the number of spaces between paragraphs etc. These could be generated for each SDK handed out so they can identify exactly where the leak came from.
#34413 - netdroid9 - Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:55 am
Tracker bytes embedded into documentation, metadata that says <So-and-so> is the developer who originally had this, stuff like that.
#34417 - Normmatt - Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:32 am
i think you should make your own sdk from the official one but recoded for easy coding then you could release it ohh and you should give the official emulator to emulator authors s othay can make a free emulator
#34418 - dagamer34 - Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:59 am
| Normmatt wrote: |
| i think you should make your own sdk from the official one but recoded for easy coding then you could release it ohh and you should give the official emulator to emulator authors s othay can make a free emulator |
Hypothetically, IF anyone were to break the law, the first part of your statement would make sense. However, the second part does not. If Nintendo can embed tags into documentation, what is stopping them from doing the same to their own emulator? The information from the documentation would lead to a emulator anyway. [/hypothetical rant]
All such talk really should be moved to PM's or something. Nintendo is just bound to serach for "Nintendo DS SDK" and come up with this site. Don't believe me?
Well, let's just say that Nintendo's reps in charge of seeing how icons of its own IP do do a lot of searching on the net. Remember that incident that happened last year with the umm.. less than conspicuous site which had names of some of Nintendo's beloved characters? Apparently, Nintendo doesn't like its IP on sites which might be offensive to children.... :?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#34424 - ravuya - Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:09 am
| Normmatt wrote: |
| i think you should make your own sdk from the official one but recoded for easy coding then you could release it ohh and you should give the official emulator to emulator authors s othay can make a free emulator |
This is a bad idea. Code taint is exactly why I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. You look at this outside of an NDA, you get caught, you're marked for life in the software dev community.
_________________
Rav (Win/Mac/Linux games for free)
#34427 - netdroid9 - Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:20 am
Hmmm...
You can possibly tell us all about the encryption though, as in what registers are needed to activate it, how to encode roms for it, etc...
*Listens*
#34429 - TJ - Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:48 am
No, he can't tell us anything.
#34430 - Zlodo - Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:57 am
I'd also like to point out that email adress is only the most obvious way to identify someone posting on a forum, so don't feel safe just because you use one that can't be linked directly to you.
#34438 - sandymac - Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:55 pm
Would it be too much if AP released a series of demos that basically presented one feature of the DS at a time? That could be useful to people who can figure out disassembled code and it would be nice to have some stub programs to test out the ni-fi multiboot stuff.
_________________
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -- Thomas Paine
#34440 - tepples - Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:55 pm
That'd probably be too much. Notice how Miked0801 hasn't released any demos to the public.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#34466 - dagamer34 - Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:47 pm
Can he tell us when we aren't correct when we are doing things wrongly and say nothing when we are.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#34468 - grumpycat - Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:27 am
Even more fun than that, he can spam this group with messages about chicken and fish.
Whenever we get something right, he can say, "I like chicken".
Whenever we get something wrong, he can say, "I don't like fish".
Yeah, this is getting silly. Best to preserve your freedom and your career and just STFU.
#34480 - PhoenixSoft - Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:20 am
| netdroid9 wrote: |
Hmmm...
You can possibly tell us all about the encryption though, as in what registers are needed to activate it, how to encode roms for it, etc...
*Listens* |
Have you ever been bitchslapped by a 60 year old Japanese businessman?
Just forget all about this and go back to reverse-engineering. It's the only way we can keep all of this legal. If this guy got involved, it would be tons easier for Nintendo to shut down this site.
#34482 - netdroid9 - Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:46 am
Oh well...
Then again, Nintendo won't be happy that people are talking about dissasembly, no matter what the cause, or if its legal, because as soon as the first DS emulator comes out, and the first carts are cracked, (Well, a rom has already been dumped by darkfadar...) pirates will be jumping all over it.
EDIT: Notice how AP has only posted 3 times, and has NEVER shown any proof that he/she actually had an SDK. I'm just going to assume AP doesn't actually have an SDK and was being a troll.
#34485 - dagamer34 - Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:16 am
| netdroid9 wrote: |
Oh well...
Then again, Nintendo won't be happy that people are talking about dissasembly, no matter what the cause, or if its legal, because as soon as the first DS emulator comes out, and the first carts are cracked, (Well, a rom has already been dumped by darkfadar...) pirates will be jumping all over it.
EDIT: Notice how AP has only posted 3 times, and has NEVER shown any proof that he/she actually had an SDK. I'm just going to assume AP doesn't actually have an SDK and was being a troll. |
Is this just one of many ways to mount a defense in his favor? Good one! You'll make a great lawyer some day.
Yeah, he gets in trouble the moment we read something that is straight from the SDK, and at the moment, he hasn't yet.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#34490 - AP - Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:55 am
| netdroid9 wrote: |
EDIT: Notice how AP has only posted 3 times, and has NEVER shown any proof that he/she actually had an SDK. I'm just going to assume AP doesn't actually have an SDK and was being a troll. |
I'm no troll... I DO have the SDK. Legally I do not want to be fucked over so that it destroys my working life...
I'm in a catch 22 situation here...
At the moment the manuals on rivision 1.22, and the last heading in the Table of Contents is "Appendix C.Data Formats" which points to page 379. Anybody that has access to this manual will confirm that...
#34493 - Zlodo - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:28 pm
| AP wrote: |
| At the moment the manuals on rivision 1.22, and the last heading in the Table of Contents is "Appendix C.Data Formats" which points to page 379. Anybody that has access to this manual will confirm that... |
Except if "anybody else that has acess to this manual" prefer not to let people know he has. Anyway, it's a moot point, because as you can't tell us anything from the manual, it doesn't matter whether you actually have it or not.
#34494 - petermag - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:57 pm
Then why isn't DesktopMa from #dsdev banned from the DS community ?
He has admitted in private in the past, and also shown evidence that he has had early access to the DS SDK.
Or is this another attempt at double standards and hypocrisy from people higher up ?
#34495 - Boeboe - Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:25 pm
lol @ first post. It takes no genius to figure out who this guy is :p (and you really should close this topic)
#34502 - bertsnks - Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:49 pm
More guys in #dsdev have the early DS SDK. It includes no wireless or touchscreen code though. There is no manual with internal registers either in the package, only the high level library. Oh, and the emulator is missing too.
#34503 - wombatman - Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:10 pm
I don't see where anyone said ban AP for admitting he has a devkit. People are just advicing him to keep it to himself because it could jeopardize his career. There are quite a few real devs in this scene. This scene, and by that I am including the grandfather sk3n3s of gbdev, gbcdev, and gbadev, is responsible for debugging tools unrivaled (nocash), hicolor display (Icarus), and pallette reduction on limited systems (palred and about 5 others), and then theres the general tools like map builders, tile designers, and sound engines. There is a reason for real devs to be here even beyond the ones who started out here and just made it to the big leagues.
#34506 - Zlodo - Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:51 pm
Not to mention visualboy advance, highly appreciated by professionals for its ability to show what's going on in vram, a life saver to debug sprite engines.
Another reason for "real" devs to hang there is that they might be as interested as anyone in things that would be very nice to have on the ds and might never see the light of day in an official way, such as pda/internet browsing applications.
#34515 - grumpycat - Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:07 pm
If AP really wanted to share then that's really cool of him. Pity it's not really appropriate or legal, but cool of him to offer.
I also think it's cool that so many people advised him against helping - that shows a pretty mature attitude.
There are some really smart people working on this. It'll get done. Legally. We'd all like it to be sooner, but let's not forget about the GBA in the mean time. This month has been pretty dry for demos. I guess everyone is still playing with their new Christmas toys. For me, this weekend is dedicated to Half Life 2 now that my new PC has arrived ;-)
Grumpy.
#34523 - DiscoStew - Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:26 pm
| grumpycat wrote: |
| This month has been pretty dry for demos |
And probably for actual coding. After I started playing WOW (World of Warcraft), my time spent on coding the GBA had decreased substantially. I do, however, still continue to program, since I am really close to starting on the game engine for the game demo I plan to release. Until then, I have to continue working on my main GBA engine, which handles a bunch of things like BGs, OBJs, etc.
College doesn't help either, lol
_________________
DS - It's all about DiscoStew
#34542 - dagamer34 - Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:43 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| grumpycat wrote: | | This month has been pretty dry for demos |
And probably for actual coding. After I started playing WOW (World of Warcraft), my time spent on coding the GBA had decreased substantially. I do, however, still continue to program, since I am really close to starting on the game engine for the game demo I plan to release. Until then, I have to continue working on my main GBA engine, which handles a bunch of things like BGs, OBJs, etc.
College doesn't help either, lol |
College is a biatch.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#34546 - slurrey - Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:10 am
I say don't release it to the public, just release it to the few people working on hacking the DS's wifi and see if it's possible to access the DS hardware through the gba slot!
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#34559 - caitsith2 - Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:42 pm
| slurrey wrote: |
| I say don't release it to the public, just release it to the few people working on hacking the DS's wifi and see if it's possible to access the DS hardware through the gba slot! |
If I were reverse engineering something, I would not want docs that cannot be legally obtained, as that is where code tainting and that stuff comes from. Clean reverse engineering means that you don't actually have any of the original code/docs yourself, which leaves a 0% chance that your code contains info that belongs to nintendo or whoever. If you had any access to the docs and read them, then some of nintendo's code might just sneak its way into your code, not something we want.
#34562 - Spaceface - Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:52 pm
Releasing devkits would probably result in the guys here understanding the DS better and the guys at (for in stance) XLink to speed up their online development.
#34577 - grumpycat - Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:28 pm
| caitsith2 wrote: |
| If I were reverse engineering something, I would not want docs that cannot be legally obtained, as that is where code tainting and that stuff comes from. |
Indeed. In fact, if Nintendo chose to go after you, you would probably have to demonstrate how your clean-room analysis led you to conclude that bit X in hardware register Y does this, and Nintendo ROM call Z takes these arguments and does that.
The register names and addresses have already been leaked. It could be argued that any analysis done based on them as a starting point is already tainted.
So, to hell with it. Bittorrent the danm thing, cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war.
No... not really.