#50426 - Thirdz - Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:55 pm
I am sorry for the noob question, but is the DS stronger than the N64? Is there some things the DS can do that the N64 can't?
#50427 - lambi1982 - Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:57 pm
in some aspects yes, and in some no :) Does it matter? ;)
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#50428 - Thirdz - Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:00 pm
Well some guy I'm talking to says the DS is inferior to the N64 in all aspects, and I don't quite believe him. I thought maybe it'll be best to ask here for a real response.
#50430 - Cleon I - Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:35 pm
Inferior in ALL aspects? Where has he seen an N64 with a touchscreen???
Seriously though, it's hard to compare for a number of reasons. The DS is a handheld, meaning that things like battery life and screen resolution become factors. Also, the DS has several built-in components that would normally be considered peripherals on a console (eg, touchscreen, microphone, wifi), and has to have the power to use them all concurrently. Due to falling memory prices, the DS can also have larger game carts. On the other hand, the N64 can afford to have a larger controller and a higher resolution because you don't expect to be able to put it in your pocket.
To my knowledge, no one has run any benchmarks to determine which system is "better." I suspect that the N64 would win in most areas, especially in floating point performance (the DS has no built-in FPU). However, the best way to compare the system is to look at the games themselves. Get Mario 64 and Mario 64 DS side-by-side... the DS incarnation looks far better than its predecessor, mostly due to better texturing and more detailed models.
#50431 - MrAdults - Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:48 pm
There is always one way to clear up baseless claims made in internet arguments. That's right, www.google.com:
http://www.gaminggroove.com/article.php?id=29
http://gear.ign.com/articles/59293p1.html
In terms of sheer hardware power, the N64 wins or breaks even in pretty much all categories, although I'm not clear on all of the specifics. I believe I read that they also each have the same amount of available vram.
-Rich
#50434 - mike260 - Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:35 pm
| Thirds wrote: |
| Is there some things the DS can do that the N64 can't? |
You can skim the DS across a calm stretch of water, but not the N64.
#50435 - El Hobito - Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:37 pm
Think about how slow goldeneye used to run on the n64, i recon the ds could easily run it at 60fps
#50440 - abigsmurf - Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:41 pm
The DS has extra functions that the N64 doesn't such as in built support for cel shading and a few other bonuses like that. It doesn't have texture filtering built in or Anti-aliasing which were both deemed unnessercery on a low res screen.
The N64 does seem to have a bit more basic grunt power but the DS can produce superior graphics if programmed well (the visual enhancements to Mario 64, the full 3d mario kart being two examples)
#50455 - tepples - Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:06 pm
| Cleon I wrote: |
| Inferior in ALL aspects? Where has he seen an N64 with a touchscreen??? |
Didn't Mario Artist come out in Japan, including a mouse? And didn't the microphone (a real mike, not the level detector in the Famicom's controller 2 or in the DK Bongos) come with Pikachu Genki Dechu (J) and Hey You Pikachu (U)?
| Quote: |
| Seriously though, it's hard to compare for a number of reasons. The DS is a handheld, meaning that things like battery life and screen resolution become factors. |
Screen resolution was a factor on the N64, as a high-resolution frame buffer would eat up system RAM. (That's why most high-res N64 games required the Expansion Pak, which corresponds to an Option Pak on the Nintendo DS.) In addition, a high-res frame buffer often led to reduced frame rate as the games became fill rate bound. The 320x240 resolution of the N64 in its most common video mode isn't that much bigger in practice than 256x192, especially compared to the 480x272 screen of the PSP.
| Quote: |
| However, the best way to compare the system is to look at the games themselves. |
And with all the movie-license crap that appears on handhelds nowadays, it becomes easy to disrespect the games on a given system.
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#50475 - M3d10n - Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:53 am
| abigsmurf wrote: |
The DS has extra functions that the N64 doesn't such as in built support for cel shading and a few other bonuses like that. It doesn't have texture filtering built in or Anti-aliasing which were both deemed unnessercery on a low res screen.
The N64 does seem to have a bit more basic grunt power but the DS can produce superior graphics if programmed well (the visual enhancements to Mario 64, the full 3d mario kart being two examples) |
There isn't texture filtering, but anti-aliasing is there. The Metroid demo doesn't use it, but Mario 64 DS does, in almost every polygons. It seems to be the same edge anti-aliasing as the N64's (so it only affects - huh - teh triangle's edges, not the textures, not the z-buffer/stencil intersections). It does make one heck of a difference, making the image very smooth looking when there are no high-contrast texture on screen (the snow-themed levels, as example), and I hope they manage to turn it on in the final Metroid game.
The DS seems to be capable of higher framerates than the N64 without making too much sacrifices. Most DS 3D games run at constant 30fps, whereas on the N64 most ran at 20fps (like GoldenEye), a few even going down to 15fps. That's why many N64 game felt sluggish.
Just compare Nanostray (DS) to F-zero (N64): both run at silky-smooth 60fps, but while F-zero does major sacrifices to reach such framerate (hyper-aggresive LOD and very low-polygon levels), Nanostray does it while remaining beautiful on the eyes. I dare say Nanostray could pass up as a Dreamcast shooter, if you add texture filtering and up the resolution to 640x480.
#50479 - Lupin - Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:20 am
It's funny how the DS gets compared to the N64 while the PSP even gets compared to the PS2 sometimes.
Maybe it was Nintendos marketing idea to make the DS' processing power on tie with the N64's so that the old N64 games could be ported more easily without reducing their display quality.
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#50488 - tepples - Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:37 am
| Lupin wrote: |
| Maybe it was Nintendos marketing idea to make the DS' processing power on tie with the N64's so that the old N64 games could be ported more easily without reducing their display quality. |
Likewise on the Game Boy Color vs. NES and on the Game Boy Advance vs. Super NES.
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#50496 - Dwedit - Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:18 am
I thought the DS was fixed at 60FPS or else it generates a corrupt image?
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#50591 - dagamer34 - Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:38 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Lupin wrote: | | Maybe it was Nintendos marketing idea to make the DS' processing power on tie with the N64's so that the old N64 games could be ported more easily without reducing their display quality. |
Likewise on the Game Boy Color vs. NES and on the Game Boy Advance vs. Super NES. |
Up next, portable Gamecube.
No, no pictures, please. :)
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#50602 - tepples - Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:52 am
| Dwedit wrote: |
| I thought the DS was fixed at 60FPS or else it generates a corrupt image? |
The Nintendo DS GPU redraws the scene every frame (60 times a second), but the game doesn't have to feed the GPU a new scene every frame. Some games will alternate between, say, physics and graphics, between decompression and graphics, etc.
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#50606 - lambi1982 - Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:39 am
GoldenEyewould run Flawless on DS!!!! who are kidding. if you were to run goldenEye with the graphics it had the DS would bogg down. if people during the N64 days knew how to play with pixels and texures the way they do now. the N64 would look like Gamecube compared to the DS. Just look at Mobile phone games, sprites alone make some games look sick.
I love both systems, I have always been with Nintendo all the way.
But as far as the DS goes, it is never going to over power the n64.
Just my opinion though. Nanostray my look beautiful but once you play and have alot on the screen the DS Slows down alot. Not shocked though. its alot for a handheld. Look at the PSP they said that thing was just as good or even better than the PS2.. NO WAY!!!!!!!!! The graphics SUCK. They do what they can to make it look beautiful and vibrant. but bright is all it is.
I own both so i have the right to crap on any one..........
just look at goldeneye on the DS, can anyone say ugly.... :)
i will shut up now, bye bye ;)
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#50732 - M3d10n - Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:14 pm
Comparing the DS' Goldeneye with the N64's Goldeneye is a bit unfair. The N64 game was made by the geniuses at Rare, while the DS game is a piss poor cash-in done by Eletronic Arts, based on an already flawed console version (Rogue Agent).
Comparing Goldeneye to Metroid Prime Hunters demo is much more fair. And, IMO, both games are very close.
It's not a matter of raw power. It's all about bottlenecks. Some of the N64's limitations were lessened on the DS.
The N64's had poor fillrate. Even if the CPU could transform a bunch of polygons, the GPU would drag down while drawing them. On the DS, the fillrate is much higher than it'll ever be able to use (...).
Holding a framebuffer+zbuffer was a nice hit on the N64's 4MB RAM. The DS get's some spare RAM due to the scanline rendering, and the small bits of extra video RAM. It also uses hardware texture compression, that helps things a bit.
But the DS's polygon throughput seems capped compared to the N64's (even while the DS offers hardware transform and lighting that was not avaliable on the N64). But we have yet to see how far things will go - right now most of the 1st generation DS titles are pushing more polygons than 2nd and even 3rd generation N64 games. The question is if the DS is capable of reaching the polycount of games like Conker BFD, Perfect Dark, Jet Force Jemini and other later N64 titles.