#70168 - Praxis - Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:40 pm
Hey guys; I've been lurking here for a while (I'm a CS student, read through the tutorials on programming for GBA, very interesting, but I haven't done enough C++ yet, sadly).
I was just wondering about something. I received my M3 today and will get my CF card on Monday. I am anti-piracy and try to support the industry and laws as best I can.
As such, the law states I am entitled to a legal backup of anything I own. However, it is illegal to send or recieve such backups with others. Thus, as we all know, it is illegal to download a rom (even of a game you own), but NOT illegal to back your own games up as roms if you don't send them to others.
Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to buy a GBA MP ($25) and GBA flash cart (costs even more) and CF card and run NDS rom dumper- OR buy the NeoFlash kit which costs over $100.
I've already spent a bunch of money getting my M3, PassKey 2, linker cable (for backing up GameBoy games) and 1 GB CF card. I really can't afford any more. I want to make legal backups of my own games so they can all be on one cart, and so I can unlock the hidden maps in Mario Kart DS and play them online :) And maybe the Animal Crossing level editor when I get that game.
And my most important use- running those backups in an emulator so I can take screenshots and record videos (in the ones that actually run in emulators). We're running a new game review site but have no way to take DS screenshots.
Completely clean, legal uses.
I just was wondering. Why hasn't anyone made a useful backup tool? Is there some technical difficulty involved? It looks to me like you could easily create a tool that copies whatever is in the NDS slot on to a Flash cart or M3 or Supercard in a file.
It would work something like this. Put PassMe/Key in, put cart of choice in, boot app, the app tells you now to remove PassMe/Key and put your game in, you press A, it rips the game into a file. Thus people who want to legally back up their games, can. It's not like it's going to help piracy, as anyone who wants DS roms can already find every game that's out there easily.
Why hasn't anyone made such an app? Have they and I haven't seen it? Thanks.
#70173 - LunarCrisis - Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:03 pm
| Praxis wrote: |
| As such, the law states I am entitled to a legal backup of anything I own. |
Not if the carts employ copy-protection and you live in the US. In the US, the DMCA states that it is illegal to break copy protection. This could be a barrier to some of those who would otherwise be capable of setting this up.
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#70178 - nmain - Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:43 pm
| LunarCrisis wrote: |
| Praxis wrote: | | As such, the law states I am entitled to a legal backup of anything I own. |
Not if the carts employ copy-protection and you live in the US. In the US, the DMCA states that it is illegal to break copy protection. This could be a barrier to some of those who would otherwise be capable of setting this up. |
Copy protection is a narrowly defined term here though (thankfully), although I think the encryption on ds roms does count as a "drm system" or whatever the legalese says? I say move to canada =D
#70191 - Praxis - Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:25 pm
It's actually a contradiction in the law. It is illegal to break copy protection however it is a LEGAL RIGHT for you to back up what you own.
Anyway, I live close enough to Canada that I could drive up there before running the application :D
So is the encryption the reason it hasn't been done?
#70197 - octopusfluff - Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:45 pm
| Praxis wrote: |
It's actually a contradiction in the law. It is illegal to break copy protection however it is a LEGAL RIGHT for you to back up what you own.
|
Referring to it as a 'right' is somewhat misleading. Fair use in the United States is a case-by-case judgement. Yes, there are things that are almost certainly going to be allowed by a judge, but you are not granted or recognized 'rights' as the recipient of a work. Rights belong to the owner of a work. Fair use comes down to where the owner's rights stop, not where the recipient rights begin.
DMCA violations are also a tricky beast.. Mostly it boils down to whether or not you can argue from a legal standpoint that you are not circumventing a protection mechanism, or that you are accessing something you already had access to.
I've referenced this before, but only because it's a rather well researched post: http://www.dcemulation.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=71423
Really, as things stand, a rom dumper for the DS is almost certainly going to be classified as a circumvention device. The creation and distribution of such is likely to have Nintendo nail your head to a wall, and nobody will really blame them. Until the NDS is classifiable as an 'obsolete' system, or it's determined with certainty that the encryption used doesn't count as a protection mechanism under the DMCA definitions, you're not going to see one in the legit circles.
#70208 - Praxis - Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:03 am
Darn :( Alrighty.
#70209 - chishm - Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:04 am
The encryption is the main reason for lack of better ROM dumpers. There are a few people who are know how to correctly dump a ROM, but most share the opinion that any tool released would most likely be used mostly for piracy.
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#70220 - Filb - Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:21 am
I wish there was nicer homebrew dumper out.
I mean, the "evil piracy scene one" is somewhat bad as it overwrites the CF's file system resulting in an unformatted card. Also, it doesn't work if not booted from GBA Flash Cart, I think. Couldn't get it working from GBAMP.
I don't want to download pirated dumps when extracting stuff from games for examination reasons. And I don't see why American law can be the reason when there are so many countries which do allow this kind of backup.
Oh well... :(
#70232 - Alex Atkin UK - Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:08 am
It was already said above - the people who COULD do it refuse to, because they know it will be used for piracy. Also those people like DO reside in countries that have DMCA-like laws.
So far as breaking the law is concerned - I doubt very much in court it will make any difference if you download the ROMs or extracted them from your own carts. If you could prove you owned the games you downloaded and did not distribute the ROMs you "should" be about as safe as you can be. The best bet of course would be to just not have backups at all. They are cartridges after all, the liklihood of them failing should be fairly low.
Now I might argue the case with PSP software. The liklihood of the drive itself failing it pretty high (VERY high, its a Sony drive) so having a backup on memory stick would be VERY useful. But we arent talking PSP... ;-) and Nintendo have a much better reputation for making stuff that keeps working.
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#70254 - HyperHacker - Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:09 am
Durability can't help games being lost or stolen though, and they can still be destroyed.
Is it not possible, though, to dump the ROM without breaking encryption; that is, dump it encrypted or use keys already in the firmware/BIOS? It's not exactly breaking an encryption if you use the key that's essentially given to you. (Although if it's in the ARM7 BIOS, the method to read it might be considered circumvention... :-/) And if you dump them encrypted, there's no encryption breaking involved. (Unless you decrypt them on the PC, but that's not related to the dumper itself.)
I think the biggest issue is recognition. People generally assume - rightly so - that releasing a dumper will only lead to more piracy. (Truth be told, 99% of people who would be willing to probably aren't smart enough to run a ROM site that won't get shut down right away; there's a fair amount of legal stuff you have to work around. Also you have to get the games; no rental store I've seen rents DS games and every video store now has a no return policy on opened games. Which sucks BTW.) Even if you don't feel this way, who wants people seeing you as the guy who made that dumper all the pirates use?
#70300 - Praxis - Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:57 am
| HyperHacker wrote: |
I think the biggest issue is recognition. People generally assume - rightly so - that releasing a dumper will only lead to more piracy.
...
Even if you don't feel this way, who wants people seeing you as the guy who made that dumper all the pirates use?
|
Actually, the way I see it is that as every single DS game on the market has already been ripped and is being distributed in the internet, making an easy to use rom dumper would make it easier for people to play their games without having to resort to using a download site. *shrugs* But yeah, that last part really makes sense.
| Quote: |
| no rental store I've seen rents DS games and every video store now has a no return policy on opened games. Which sucks BTW.) |
Actually, GameStop employees are allowed to take new games home, play them for four days, and return them and re-package them as new. Additionally, any used game bought can be returned within seven days for no reason at all. So that's not a problem.
#70395 - The 9th Sage - Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:31 am
| Praxis wrote: |
| Actually, GameStop employees are allowed to take new games home, play them for four days, and return them and re-package them as new. Additionally, any used game bought can be returned within seven days for no reason at all. So that's not a problem. |
Wow, that's a business practice that I find to be astounding. O_o
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#70397 - assassda - Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:38 am
the GBAMP and M3 are so similar im suprised there isnt an M3 dumper
has the GBAMP dumper source been released?
#70404 - Joat - Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:06 am
I think you'll *probably* find that this is totally against official store policy, but widespread regardless (smacks of the 24 hour rule that rom lamers use). Manager wants to play some games, staff catches him, he makes up the rule (heh, who is going to argue, esp. since they get to play the games too), etc...
Personally, I don't buy any new games from gamestop or EB unless they're still in shrinkwrap *anyways*, because they usually sticker the cases with those 'trade in your games' bullshit.
(And yes, they have a shrinkwrapper in the back, so even this is no guarantee of newness, but I usually get used games anyways)
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#70413 - Sebbo - Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:31 am
back in the early days of DSLinux Natrium42 released a diagram showing how to dump the contents of your DS card to your PC through the parallel port using DarkFader's dumpds.cpp program. i have a copy of that diagram and the parts (well, most...haven't been bothered to cut up some parallel cable yet), but i won't post the diagram just in case Natrium42 has any concerns about it...PM or email him and he might send you the diagram, he's fairly easygoing (from my brief experience)
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#70438 - Lynx - Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:09 pm
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| Durability can't help games being lost or stolen though, and they can still be destroyed. |
But, then you don't "own" the original anymore. If you lose your DS game, or it is stolen, the backups should be destroyed as well. The purpose of a backup in the law you guys are trying to use, means you carry your backup around, and keep the original locked up in a safe.
#70451 - JaJa - Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:14 pm
But if your using it as your primary copy, it's not the archival backup that you were allowed to make.
It's a great situation.
#70493 - LunarCrisis - Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:03 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| HyperHacker wrote: | | Durability can't help games being lost or stolen though, and they can still be destroyed. |
But, then you don't "own" the original anymore. If you lose your DS game, or it is stolen, the backups should be destroyed as well. The purpose of a backup in the law you guys are trying to use, means you carry your backup around, and keep the original locked up in a safe. |
So as soon as someone steals something from you they own it now?
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#70540 - HyperHacker - Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:48 am
You might say they do through illegal means. What matters, though, is that you're no longer able to use it.
#70546 - octopusfluff - Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:13 am
| Alex Atkin UK wrote: |
| So far as breaking the law is concerned - I doubt very much in court it will make any difference if you download the ROMs or extracted them from your own carts. If you could prove you owned the games you downloaded and did not distribute the ROMs you "should" be about as safe as you can be. The best bet of course would be to just not have backups at all. They are cartridges after all, the liklihood of them failing should be fairly low. |
It can and has happen that a cartridge fails. The fact that it is improbable does not eliminate the possibility. Fair use allows for archival copies regardless of the media. The potential for failure is why even the DMCA specifically includes mention of 'obsolete' platforms -- at some point, things break down. If it's not supported anymore, the creator shouldn't be able to keep you from ensuring you continue to have access to equipment and works you purchased access to.
| Alex Atkin UK wrote: |
| Now I might argue the case with PSP software. The liklihood of the drive itself failing it pretty high (VERY high, its a Sony drive) so having a backup on memory stick would be VERY useful. But we arent talking PSP... ;-) and Nintendo have a much better reputation for making stuff that keeps working. |
Better reputation is not flawless reputation. They can't guarantee forever. Also, bashing Sony is not terribly productive to this conversation.
| HyperHacker wrote: |
Is it not possible, though, to dump the ROM without breaking encryption; that is, dump it encrypted or use keys already in the firmware/BIOS? It's not exactly breaking an encryption if you use the key that's essentially given to you. (Although if it's in the ARM7 BIOS, the method to read it might be considered circumvention... :-/) And if you dump them encrypted, there's no encryption breaking involved. (Unless you decrypt them on the PC, but that's not related to the dumper itself.)
|
It's possible, yes. I started to touch on this in my post.. You have to be able to argue that you aren't circumventing a protection mechanism. This is rather difficult to do, because the definitions are based off of legal logic, not programming or engineering logic. Please note that 'encryption' is itself not the sole point.. Whether it's encrypted isn't directly relevant. It's whether you are circumventing a 'protection mechanism'. Encryption might be only one of a few methods that Nintendo considers at work.
Hooking the cart up to an interface other than the NDS could well qualify as circumventing a protection mechanism: The media is only intended to interface with Nintendo products (both released, and internal devices).
Fooling around with the firmware of the DS itself -could- count, although Nintendo apparently is either feeling generous on the matter, or this isn't a viable point, or they would have said something by now.
| Lynx wrote: |
| But, then you don't "own" the original anymore. If you lose your DS game, or it is stolen, the backups should be destroyed as well. The purpose of a backup in the law you guys are trying to use, means you carry your backup around, and keep the original locked up in a safe. |
No longer possessing the original does not cause you to automatically lose ownership. If it's stolen, and you can prove it's your property, you are still the rightful owner. This is admittedly difficult to prove, but it is possible; it's what allows police to return stolen property to their original owners.
If you CAN prove that you are the rightful owner of a work, and that you made your archival backup while you had it in your possession, and that it was then stolen.. It's quite likely that a judge would find you acted within the law.
#70565 - sgeos - Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:41 am
| Praxis wrote: |
| Anyway, I live close enough to Canada that I could drive up there before running the application :D |
You are not going to though. Not every time. (Even if you do, I'll still disbelieve.)
-Brendan
#70582 - Apoc - Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:37 pm
Just remember that not all the members of this forum live in the USA. There are other countries where people have the right to have a backup, no matter it you have to circumvent a protection mechanism to make it.
#70586 - Mrshlee - Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:03 pm
Leave this topic alone... We all know your a ARRGGHHH pirate!!
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#70587 - Apoc - Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:10 pm
| Mrshlee wrote: |
| Leave this topic alone... We all know your a ARRGGHHH pirate!! |
If I were a pirate I'll just download the games, but i want to dump the games I own.
#70628 - octopusfluff - Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:35 pm
| Apoc wrote: |
| Just remember that not all the members of this forum live in the USA. There are other countries where people have the right to have a backup, no matter it you have to circumvent a protection mechanism to make it. |
I'm sorry, I normally make it a point to state that specifically. I am personally aware of this, but it is good you brought up that distinction. :)
It is also worth noting there are countries where you have no such granted capacity, and the background in some nations is based upon the belief that the creator of a work has inherent rights that the law is only recognizing.
The United States has many rights it recognizes, but the ability to control what happens to a work is a granted one, in this nation, not recognized. This distinction is important when looking at international copyright law interactions.
#70631 - genfish - Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:47 pm
once you purchase a game, you can play it under license for as long as you live... as long as u can prove it was you who bought and paid for it. If the cart is stolen, you dont own the data anymore, but u have a license to use it.
#70633 - octopusfluff - Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:59 pm
| genfish wrote: |
| once you purchase a game, you can play it under license for as long as you live... as long as u can prove it was you who bought and paid for it. If the cart is stolen, you dont own the data anymore, but u have a license to use it. |
You don't -possess- the original copy of the data. Ownership does not cease simply because someone unlawfully removed it from your possession.
This is a very important distinction.
#70668 - genfish - Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:41 am
technically the data belongs to the license owner anyway. by law u are just leasing the use of it.
but yeah u are right, ya just wrote it different to how i did
#70671 - HyperHacker - Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:02 am
So that's the big important part regarding theft. Does the law say ownership or posession of the original?
#70682 - octopusfluff - Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:16 am
| genfish wrote: |
technically the data belongs to the license owner anyway. by law u are just leasing the use of it.
but yeah u are right, ya just wrote it different to how i did |
In the united states, you do not 'lease' the use of a work protected by copyright. You purchase a copy. The restrictions of copyright do not at all have any bearing as to what you do with -that copy-. Copyright only comes into play when you attempt to make further copies.
The 'End User License Agreement' that has become so common with software is a misnomer. It is not a license. It is a contract. One which, depending on where you live, may not be upheld by the court, depending on how it is presented to you.
A license grants rights you did not previously have. I have never seen any 'EULA' grant any rights, only attempt to restrict usage, and much of the time the terms are unenforcable.
To backtrack.. What stays with the creator of the work (unless he gives them to someone else) is the exclusive right to make copies and derivative works. He does not own the copy of the data once you purchase it. That is yours. You are not leasing it, unless you willingly agree to a contract stating that you are. A standard purchase with no other terms at the point of sale is, in some legal districts, not bound by any further terms, even if a EULA is within the packaging.
Of course, in other districts, those are binding, but this is a matter of much debate across the nation. Just keep in mind that copyright itself does not specifically allow for it, only the state-level contract laws.
(Once again, for the sake of accuracy, this is all referring to United States copyright; the rules do vary in other nations)
#70735 - genfish - Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:27 pm
but if you have a backup, and your copy becomes defaced, your allowed by any means to use that backup in the UK. It must be the same in the states right? cos otherwise that would be silly.
#70786 - octopusfluff - Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:30 pm
| genfish wrote: |
| but if you have a backup, and your copy becomes defaced, your allowed by any means to use that backup in the UK. It must be the same in the states right? cos otherwise that would be silly. |
This is generally accepted as a 'fair use' action in the United States, yes.
#71025 - LunarCrisis - Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:09 am
| genfish wrote: |
| It must be the same in the states right? cos otherwise that would be silly. |
This is the law we are talking about. Common sense is no replacement for a lawyer.
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#71058 - octopusfluff - Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:10 am
| LunarCrisis wrote: |
This is the law we are talking about. Common sense is no replacement for a lawyer. |
I second that. :)
And no, for anyone wondering, I am not a lawyer, so my statements cannot be taken as legal advice (insert 'illegal advice' joke here), but I've spent a lot of time studying this issue in particular, so I like to believe I have some useful input on these matters.
There's a bad tendency for blatant misinformation to get circulated in these circles.
#71288 - darkfader - Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:34 pm
| LunarCrisis wrote: |
| So as soon as someone steals something from you they own it now? |
Legal owner vs. illegal owner :)
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