#98251 - JaJa - Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:19 am
As I have made clear in this thread, I feel that the so called 'NoPass-RWs' (iNoPass devices with onboard flash memory, like the Ultra FlashPass and the Ninjapass DS Flash) are bad for the homebrew scene.
Most of these devices are expensive, don't support chishms libfat (although they will expect it to) and have poor homebrew compatibility.
To get homebrew to run on the Ultra FlashPass (and so, I imagine the Ninjapass DS Flash) requires messing with the header.
We already have .nds, .ds.gba and .sc.nds, will we need a .UFP.nds too?
And what about the other devices like the the DSLink? Will that need a separate build?
People are going to be buying these for piracy, then finding out what cool things the homebrew community can offer, then getting frustrated that they don't work.
These device, if anything are a step backwards towards the days of the NOR GBA Flash Carts, where we had a small area of SRAM to write to compared with the 1Gbyte or so FAT media (CF and SD) we have now. Mass adoption of these devices by people looking for homebrew could see this disappear.
I thank all the developers who have worked to make games and applications that are often small, yet can sometimes equal the quality (but obviously not the complexity and length) and have more originality than commercial games. I have a 16Mbyte CF card lying around, and yet can fit plenty of interesting homebrew on it.
Currently on this card:
DSOrganize
Explosive Gas
A Touch of War
Super Snake
So in summary, I feel we should boycott (ban) 'NoPass-RW' devices because they are an expense that most developers can't afford, yet will be expected to support them by people who bought their device primarily for piracy, to make up for the manufacturers lack of homebrew compatability. We should remove this ban IF the manufacturers increase homebrew support.
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#98272 - dualscreenman - Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:30 pm
Yes, I believe these NoPass-RWs are in fact bad for the DS scene. It's not that I feel one-slot solutions are bad for DS homebrew--if everyone adopted a Slot-1 flashcart that, say, used MicroSD, we could eliminate a layer of confusion and make running DS homebrew as easy as running GBA homebrew.
When somebody makes a cheap, totally homebrew compatible Slot-1 card that takes media sticks like MicroSD, that is when I'll support Slot-1 devices. But I'll never support the UFP and clones. They were created for piracy, nothing more.
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| dualscreenman wrote: |
| What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs. |
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#98274 - Mighty Max - Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:47 pm
Thats a totally biased view tbh
They will help homebrew for sure. The barrier to start with homebrew atm is still very high because you need multiple devices for the easiest task. Even for a "Hello World". A one Slot solution lowers this barrier.
We allready fiddle with the nds header. it is totally possible to have one .nds with both devices. The created header for UFP is not incompatible with the normal homebrew loaders. It's just the next step.
I don't think they are expensive. The UFP is less then a NoPass + GBA Flash of 512MBit. Ok, the gbamp + wifime is cheaper.
Homebrew support comes with the time. GBAMP's homebrew compatible was non existance on its release.
"was created for piracy only" Yes, but what? Does that make me a pirate if i abuse it for homebrew? And if, wouldn't gba-flashcards fall under the same rule?
I'm clearly against a boycot of these cards. And tbh i don't know what result you expect from the boycot?
Will pirates stop buying these? No
Will the manufactures stop earning money? No
Will ds slot solution vanish? No
Will it stop some potentional homebrew developers to start? Yes
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#98279 - MrD - Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:55 pm
Wasn't the Supercard created for piracy?
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#98281 - dualscreenman - Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:01 pm
After reading Mighty Max's post, I have some more thoughts.
The flashcarts such as the Supercard CF and the M3 made pirating so much easier. (Most pirates like to have more than one or two ROMs on their cart simultaneously.) Given the logic that we shouldn't allow stuff that make pirating easier, the DS homebrew scene should have never adopted these media card using solutions.
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| dualscreenman wrote: |
| What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs. |
| tepples wrote: |
| "Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!" |
#98285 - daninski - Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:28 pm
i think we should assume that people who use this board and buy a device are buying that device for running homebrew. i bought the supercard knowing it could be used for piracy but with absolutely no intention of using it myself for piracy. it was my card of choice because i already had an sd card. i think we need to assume innocent until someone damns themselves with "starfox wont work!".
#98288 - JaJa - Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:11 pm
| dualscreenman wrote: |
After reading Mighty Max's post, I have some more thoughts.
The flashcarts such as the Supercard CF and the M3 made pirating so much easier. (Most pirates like to have more than one or two ROMs on their cart simultaneously.) Given the logic that we shouldn't allow stuff that make pirating easier, the DS homebrew scene should have never adopted these media card using solutions. |
But in the beginning we has the GBAMP, the purest of homebrew devices.
Then Nintendo forced as to need a device like the Supercard or M3 for it's SRAM. This meant many people new to homebrew also had a device capapble of piracy.
In boycotting these devices, I would hope to see the manufacturers change their ways and at least try and make some homebrew compatible.
And yes, MightMax it is a biased view, but frankly it's human nature to be biased. You can't be completely impartial unless you know about the subject matter. You're then going to prefer the one that matches and reinforces your own belief system.
I didn't realise that the modifed loader is compatible with exisiting devices, the problem of having a third build is now non-exisitant.
I'm not against the idea of a DS slot device, just the ones that don't and can't serve the homebrew community. As dualscreenman said, if there was a widely adopted NoPass-RW that used something like Mirco-SD, then yes, I'd probably get one.
To be honest this was a bit of a rant that I needed to get off my chest as it had been frustrating me, and thought it would make an interesting poll, maybe generate a little discussion.
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#98291 - dualscreenman - Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:22 pm
Nice discussion, too. I also learned a bit mroe about the history of DS homebrew to. As you might remember (or not), I only joined the homebrew scene last winter.
If there was ever a bounty worth creating, I'd suggest a bounty to make a cheap, MicroSD-using NoPass-RW created for homebrew purposes. (I'd donate)
_________________
| dualscreenman wrote: |
| What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs. |
| tepples wrote: |
| "Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!" |
#98292 - nl - Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:33 pm
| JaJa wrote: |
Most of these devices are expensive, don't support chishms libfat (although they will expect it to) and have poor homebrew compatibility.
To get homebrew to run on the Ultra FlashPass (and so, I imagine the Ninjapass DS Flash) requires messing with the header.
|
Those two are relatively cheap (35 usd) and they are homebrew compatible. Also, they can still be used as PassMe device.
| JaJa wrote: |
We already have .nds, .ds.gba and .sc.nds, will we need a .UFP.nds too?
|
The mess is already there with all the patching for diffrent GBA slot and flashcard solutions, so having another format does not really matter. As far as I can see, the NoPass-flashcarts accept clean ROMs - which is actually the only and original standard. As I described in the other thread, the "messing with the header" is already done and could easily be integrated into ndstool.
| JaJa wrote: |
So in summary, I feel we should boycott (ban) 'NoPass-RW' devices because they are an expense that most developers can't afford, yet will be expected to support them by people who bought their device primarily for piracy, to make up for the manufacturers lack of homebrew compatability. We should remove this ban IF the manufacturers increase homebrew support. |
I really don't understand that piracy point. Obviously, all solutions were designed for piracy, so what's the difference? All these devices are produced by the same type of shady chinese companies noone really wants to support.
The same reasons GBA slot solutions are better for homebrew also makes them better for piracy: Huge memory, fast write speeds, etc. So, at the current state, UFP, etc are not too attractive for piracy. Just have a look at other, more piracy-centric forums and you'll find many reviews which say the UFP isn't too good for that.
I like UFP for development though because
- it is easy to use (compile, write ROM with one click and run on DS),
- "clean ROM" is the only standard and guarantees no mess,
- i like to have my code on a single standard-sized cart, it just feels better and is great for demonstration and giving away copies.
My guess is that UFP & co will increase homebrew development because a single cart solutions is more attractive and simpler to use than all that whateverMe stuff. At least me found it all too confusing and just started developing when the UFP came out.
I'd go even further and say that clean ROM should become the standard for homebrew and anything else should come with a description of which extra device (GBA cart with certain SRAM type, SD card, etc) it requires.
#98294 - dualscreenman - Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:46 pm
GBAMP wasn't designed for piracy.
Also I heard that for unsigned code to run on NinjaPass/UFP you already need to ahve your DS flashed.
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| dualscreenman wrote: |
| What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs. |
| tepples wrote: |
| "Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!" |
#98298 - Mighty Max - Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:00 pm
Yet the GBAMP is the perfect example that the device's intention does not need to be the same as the actual use.
Actuall i never played any movies on it ;)
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#98299 - OOPMan - Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:01 pm
I think GBA slot devices should be the primary focus.
My main reason would be Amadeus' DS Mem. This device considerably expands the possbilities allowed by the DS by providing additional memory in addition to MicroSD support.
In my opinion the DS Mem is the future and should be targetted in the long run. A lot currently problematic homebrew would definitely benefit from havign extra memory to work with...
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#98304 - Sausage Boy - Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:51 pm
Ooohh... The DS Mem will totally revolutionize ds homebrew! And here was I, thinking that the M3 and the Supercard already had additional memory and sd card support! You learn new things every day!
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#98306 - Lynx - Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:12 pm
I can't say for all the manufacturers, but the one I e-mailed (Ultra Flash Pass) indicated they had only ONE thing on their mind. PIRACY! In their reply, they linked to a couple of piracy sites telling me to read about it there
There is NO REASON these devices can't work (for the most part) with most homebrew available.. But, because they don't care about homebrew, only piracy.. we have issues. If it was up to me, I'd make all homebrew NOT work on these devices. The only people that buy them are pirates.. we don't need them in the homebrew community anyway.
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#98310 - josath - Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:30 pm
I agree that these devices are a pretty poor choice for homebrew. Mainly because they are flash based, you will most likely never have write support, which rules out a lot of cool uses.
It's possible to make homebrew work on them, and my guess is that if enough people buy them, libraries will be developed to make it work. But a boycott is pointless...people who are interested in homebrew, will see they are a poor choice, and not buy them. People who don't care about homebrew, won't care about a boycott either.
I say if anyone asks about flashcarts, we clearly say these are a poor choice, and why it's not a good idea for homebrew. That should be enough. Things like the DS-X or NinjaDS seem like the best solution, since they take micro/mini-SD cards, and NinjaDS apparently already has libfat support (even though it's not really widely available yet)
#98325 - nl - Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:06 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| I can't say for all the manufacturers, but the one I e-mailed (Ultra Flash Pass) indicated they had only ONE thing on their mind. PIRACY! In their reply, they linked to a couple of piracy sites telling me to read about it there |
OMG, PIRACY - what a surprise! What do you think other manufactuers of GBA-slot carts and PassMe products have in mind? Even if some say "homebrew", they certainly say it just to justify their piracy product.
| Lynx wrote: |
There is NO REASON these devices can't work (for the most part) with most homebrew available.. But, because they don't care about homebrew, only piracy.. we have issues. If it was up to me, I'd make all homebrew NOT work on these devices. The only people that buy them are pirates.. we don't need them in the homebrew community anyway. |
Well, I bought my UFP solely for development, so there is at least one non-pirate user now.
Again, why do you think other suppliers of other devices care about homebrew?
This bashing of "pirates" is ridiculous, almost all of us have bought products which were meant as piracy devices and thus we all helped these evil companies growing. Why is an UFP worse than, say, a flash2advance?
#98326 - outphase - Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:16 pm
| dualscreenman wrote: |
| GBAMP wasn't designed for piracy. |
Maybe so, but the same creators are the ones who are behind the M3 and G6
#98329 - JaJa - Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:47 pm
| nl wrote: |
| Lynx wrote: | | I can't say for all the manufacturers, but the one I e-mailed (Ultra Flash Pass) indicated they had only ONE thing on their mind. PIRACY! In their reply, they linked to a couple of piracy sites telling me to read about it there |
OMG, PIRACY - what a surprise! What do you think other manufactuers of GBA-slot carts and PassMe products have in mind? Even if some say "homebrew", they certainly say it just to justify their piracy product. |
Yeah, I've seen several adverts, and e-mailed the companies basically to be told they don't care. They've then pointed me to some rom forums which have reviews praising the device.
The original PassMe wasn't a piracy device, it was made soley for homebrew. It just so happened that the SuperCard gang and the M3 people worked out a way to use it to run romz. When DS homebrew first started the only option was a GBA Flash cart, which I'll admit were mainly piracy based, or a GBAMP. Hell the Supercard and the M3 could be perfect homebrew devices, if they didn't update the patchers.
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#98348 - HyperHacker - Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:47 pm
I'd support a boycott of devices that don't make an effort to support homebrew. Slot-1 solutions that use SD or similar would be great if we could just plop whatever .nds file on there and read/write the card as easily as we can with other devices, but flash devices and those that don't even try to support homebrew are just no good.
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#98351 - darkfader - Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:06 pm
The homebrew started out with using the GBA carts slowly. Slowly more and more devices were supported but the software still needs to be recompiled. Support for the DS slot would not include writing to files but it would behave in a more managed but cumbersome way of using the savegame data (if supported at all).
It's a big step to make but why boycott? People getting only a NoPass-RW will notice when they can't run certain homebrew :)
Last edited by darkfader on Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
#98361 - DynamicStability - Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:02 pm
I say boycott. It's stupid that these piracy supporting companies can keep making their incompatible, non specced, romz0r devices and then pirate babies will buy them and expect Chishm and everyone else race to keep up with the trash.
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#98363 - Mighty Max - Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:13 pm
Sorry this is stupid
I will not let pirates decide which cards ill use and which not.
And i won't nerve ppl either, if i think something needs to be done, i do it myself. I know how to implement another driver into fatlib.
Once again, what do you expect the boycot to accomplish?
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#98370 - nl - Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:58 pm
| DynamicStability wrote: |
| I say boycott. It's stupid that these piracy supporting companies can keep making their incompatible, non specced, romz0r devices and then pirate babies will buy them and expect Chishm and everyone else race to keep up with the trash. |
these devices are well specced: they have exactly the same specs as official DS carts, you can use clean ROM and assume a standard 2M eeprom is available, no patching required. of course these specs are not too exciting, neither for homebrew nor for war3zz, "media devices" offer much more possiblities.
but for certain applications, like demonstration and even distribution, this is just the best solution: an affordable single-ROM standalone cart that acts and looks like a normal DS cart. i think this niche is actually the only interesting market for UFP, it's more like a proof of concept ("we are the first to make a real DS flashcart") and i'm sure other, more expensive products with fancy extras will follow soon
btw, the makers of UFP already have announced some new product with external memory.
#98372 - tepples - Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:08 pm
| JaJa wrote: |
| Most of these devices are expensive, don't support chishms libfat (although they will expect it to) |
Neither did successive revisions of SuperCard and M3. What is a "moomshell"?
| Quote: |
and have poor homebrew compatibility.
To get homebrew to run on the Ultra FlashPass (and so, I imagine the Ninjapass DS Flash) requires messing with the header.
We already have .nds, .ds.gba and .sc.nds |
If you haven't appended a file system to your .nds, then sc.nds is identical to .nds. Otherwise, it's identical to ds.gba. Either situation can be handled with a 'copy' command in a file "SuperCard users run me first.bat" inside the archive.
| Quote: |
will we need a .UFP.nds too?
And what about the other devices like the the DSLink? Will that need a separate build? |
It possibly might not need a separate build, just a conversion tool that can be downloaded separately. It could even be built into ndstool, as nl suggested.
| Quote: |
| These device, if anything are a step backwards towards the days of the NOR GBA Flash Carts |
NOR cards stick out of the DS Lite, CF adapters even more so. Anything that sticks out is a bad idea if I'm going to be plugging in headphones, starting music, closing my DS, and jogging.
| Quote: |
| So in summary, I feel we should boycott (ban) 'NoPass-RW' devices because they are an expense that most developers can't afford, yet will be expected to support them |
At one point, I thought boycotting the DS itself in favor of keeping the GBA scene alive was such an expense and for the same reason, until someone suggested a birthday bounty nearly a year ago.
| Quote: |
| We should remove this ban IF the manufacturers increase homebrew support. |
At least DS-Extreme (ds-x.com) has pledged to support homebrew.
| dualscreenman wrote: |
| GBAMP wasn't designed for piracy. |
Some claim that the GBA Movie Player itself was created for movie piracy.
| OOPMan wrote: |
| In my opinion the DS Mem is the future and should be targetted in the long run. |
Either that or the RAM card that comes with Opera.
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#98380 - JaJa - Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:54 pm
By boycotting the offending devices, you could drive potential homebrewers to a better supported solution.
It might not force the manufacturers to do anything, and to be honest it probably won't affect their sales.
But it would mean that the homebrew community wouldn't need to support them, which when I wrote the first post seemed a lot harder.
And yes, DS-X seems to be every thing we want, we shall see.
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#98382 - Lynx - Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:11 am
| Quote: |
| Some claim that the GBA Movie Player itself was created for movie piracy. |
Heh.. that's like saying still shots of a movie is piracy as well.. Watching a movie on 252x190 and calling it "piracy" is rediculous.. that and the quality is really poor even at that resolution.
As for boycotting.. if your going to do it.. do it based on the manufacturer, not the device type. Like the Ultra Flash Pass people.. they ONLY care about piracy.. So.. let's not support their devices and warn people from purchasing them. The more devices that come out, the more questions like "I can't get xxx homebrew to work on my Ultra Flash Pass" and there will be 100 posts saying "yeah, because they don't support homebrew".
If a manufacturer states that the device will support homebrew, a few people get them, and it does.. then there is no reason to boycott them, just because they offer a slot-1 solution.
So, boycott the piracy promoters, not the device type.
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#98387 - tepples - Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:28 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| Quote: | | Some claim that the GBA Movie Player itself was created for movie piracy. |
Heh.. that's like saying still shots of a movie is piracy as well.. Watching a movie on 252x190 and calling it "piracy" is rediculous.. that and the quality is really poor even at that resolution. |
Tell that to the major motion picture studios.
| Quote: |
| So, boycott the piracy promoters, not the device type. |
Agreed, provided that a solution compatible with DS Lite firmware and with DS Lite owners' trouser pockets can be put together without buying a piracy promoter's product. But for pragmatic reasons, I'm not willing to go so far as to say "You need to buy an old DS on eBay", which was the first impression that I got from the manual discussed here.
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#98442 - chishm - Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:37 am
There is one benefit to using DS Flash Card style devices (that is, devices that act exactly as a rewritable commercial cartridge). Since it is the standard for commercial games, the NitroFS filesystem combined with a common storage interface would mean the devices would not need new drivers written for each new one to appear on the market.
This is analogous to using standard 32MB (with 64KiB SRAM) GBA Flash Carts for GBA homebrew -- there's no need for each piece of homebrew software to know about each flash cart. The menu software (be it Pogoshell or a simple ROM menu) takes care of the cart's special features instead
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#98454 - JaJa - Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:09 am
Yeah, that's why I said
| Quote: |
| We should remove this ban IF the manufacturers increase homebrew support. |
Those that only care about piracy deserve to be banned, but those that at least make some effort, like the DS-X, should be welcomed.
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#98459 - nl - Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:01 pm
Besides I still don't get the point why one piracy device should be worse than another and what's wrong with a minimal-standard (clean ROM can be seen as a subset of all other standards, if it works on UFP, it should run on any other device too), I don't like the whole idea of banning. Isn't it the nature of homebrew development that it is not regulated and that standards develop in a free, "evolutionary" process? If someone likes to develop for a device, he/she just sits down, starts programming until it works and shares the result. If you don't like UFP, etc, just don't buy it and don't support it, but why tell others their effort is not welcome?
If you really want to become independent from piracy devices, you would have to design and produce a cart that is not compatible with commercial ROMs. As far as I can see, the only solution for that would be a memoy smaller than most commercial games, anything else would get patched sooner or later.
#98489 - Linkiboy - Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:19 pm
The UFP got a 2/10 on "yarrtemp" so I doubt anyone would buy them(unless they're really uninformed).
Hopefully if the Neokey 4 SD(or whatever its called) is cheap, it might be a nice alternative, since it uses SD cards and doesn't need flashme or anything.
It would be nice if developers incorperated the rumble pack or the (rumored) motion sensor into homebrew, since 1st party developers miss a lot of great oppertunities for games with these gimmicks.
But non-media based slot-1 adapters should go and never return.
#98660 - Lynx - Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:27 pm
| tepples wrote: |
Tell that to the major motion picture studios. |
Ok.. :)
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | So, boycott the piracy promoters, not the device type. |
Agreed, provided that a solution compatible with DS Lite firmware and with DS Lite owners' trouser pockets can be put together without buying a piracy promoter's product. But for pragmatic reasons, I'm not willing to go so far as to say "You need to buy an old DS on eBay", which was the first impression that I got from the manual discussed here. |
Wow.. I didn't read that thread.. and I agree, that information (what I skimmed through in your quotes on the post) is over the top.
Don't get me wrong.. I love the plug for my site.. and I love the fact that even though ndshb.com hasn't been updated as much as I would like (I have been to busy lately.. looking for a job) it it still a success in my opionion and receives a lot of hits (Daily Average hits = 67297, Daily Average visits = 2478 for the month of July) I just wish there were more people willing to help support the site.. but that is another topic.
Anyway.. back to the topic.. First.. if you contact a manufacturer.. and their replay is PIRATE only! that's a pretty big sign that they don't care at all about homebrew and should be avoided at ALL COST! Specially when there are alternatives available.
I have never disagreed that if it wasn't for piracy, we wouldn't have many of the homebrew devices we have because there is not enough money in homebrew to support the manufacturing costs of some of these devices. But, just because I understand that process, doesn't mean I have to agree or support it. I mean, no matter what device you have (if it was manufactured, not hand built) it was not manufactured for homebrew! The demand just isn't there. If it wasn't for Chishm, we wouldn't have the GBA MP! Now, if it was sold for "movie piracy" or not, I don't know.. but it wasn't (and still isn't) made for homebrew. We are just lucky that there are people in the homebrew community with the skills to make things work they way we would like.
So, to say not to purchase any device designed for ROM/GAME pirating would mean you can purchase 2 devices. A PassMe1 and GBA MP.. But, then your screwed because it doesn't work on new DSs.. So now what? You are left with only one option. Buy a device that was designed for pirating.
So, how do you choose which device for pirating you should buy? Well, start with one that is at least made by a manufacturer that acknowledges HOMEBREW is out there. One that is actually ABLE to run homebrew! So, if we don't want to get to the point where we have a "BAN" list of devices NOT to purchase, just keep with the "SUGGESTED" devices that work and are as low cost as possible (Including shipping).
Like owning a gun, it's not illegal to have it (in the USA and most places), but it IS illegal to kill someone with it (in the USA and most places).
Just because we are forced to purchase a device that was designed for pirating, doesn't mean we have to use it for that.. As long as it has FULL homebrew capability, I'm happy. If it doesn't, then don't support it. We just need to try to make sure EVERYONE knows about these PIRATE ONLY devices so that they don't purchase them.. and then we get 100+ posts complaining about how they can't get homebrew to run on them because they only bought it for pirating.. oh.. but check out this cool homebrew I'd like to try... ahh.. it doesn't work.. :(
If someone has a good suggestion on how a list could be made (even if a wiki) I'll be happy to post/install/whatever on ndshb.com. Or, if someone is already working on it, give me the URL and i'll add a link so people will know. Most people wanting to do homebrew will at least search a little bit.. so if we can make the information as wide spread as possible, it will increase the chances of them seeing it, and either A) not purchasing the device, or if they already did, B) not post a message asking for help, as they will already know homebrew won't run in it.
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#98667 - omaremad - Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:18 pm
The solution is simple!
I rember a post here from a commercial dev that they used the first generic nitrofat to 0x80000 patcher for cheap testing.
So the devs know how their products are hacked.
simple soultion is adda routines in the final build that checks for signature signs such as running from gba slot or respossiveness from a g6's hardware registers etc...
they need better anti copy methods, thats the true way of stopping piracy.
#98697 - tepples - Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:23 am
| omaremad wrote: |
| simple soultion is adda routines in the final build that checks for signature signs such as running from gba slot or respossiveness from a g6's hardware registers etc... |
And watch those routines be patched out by the pirate community, just as they were back in the days of disk-based copy protection on 8-bit home computers. Even on PCs there's something called a "no-CD crack" that just NOPs out or branches over copy authentication.
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-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#98698 - HyperHacker - Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:24 am
Yes, we all know Nintendo needs to do a lot of work on copy protection. Go tell them that. We can't do anything about it.
| nl wrote: |
| DynamicStability wrote: | | I say boycott. It's stupid that these piracy supporting companies can keep making their incompatible, non specced, romz0r devices and then pirate babies will buy them and expect Chishm and everyone else race to keep up with the trash. |
these devices are well specced: they have exactly the same specs as official DS carts, you can use clean ROM and assume a standard 2M eeprom is available, no patching required. |
The problem is homebrew often needs to write back to the card, select ROMs etc, and manufacturers rarely provide information on how to do this. You can only write to that little EEPROM and treat it as being a replacement for parts of the ROM, which is hackish, provides very little storage space (especially with a filesystem layered on top) and requires you to run a program on your PC to update the ROM with its contents every now and then.
| Lynx wrote: |
| So, to say not to purchase any device designed for ROM/GAME pirating would mean you can purchase 2 devices. A PassMe1 and GBA MP. |
What's wrong with PassMe2?
Oh, and...
| tepples wrote: |
| Lynx wrote: | | Quote: | | Some claim that the GBA Movie Player itself was created for movie piracy. |
Heh.. that's like saying still shots of a movie is piracy as well.. Watching a movie on 252x190 and calling it "piracy" is rediculous.. that and the quality is really poor even at that resolution. |
Tell that to the major motion picture studios. |
They'd be the ones insisting that video cameras are made for movie piracy. ;-) (BTW, GBA is 240x160.)
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.
#98709 - tepples - Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:46 am
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| Lynx wrote: | | So, to say not to purchase any device designed for ROM/GAME pirating would mean you can purchase 2 devices. A PassMe1 and GBA MP. |
What's wrong with PassMe2? |
PassMe2 requires SRAM. GBA Movie Player v2 CF does not have GBA SRAM. SuperCard and M3 have SRAM, but that PDF calls those cards piracy tools.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#98722 - josath - Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:01 am
| tepples wrote: |
| HyperHacker wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | So, to say not to purchase any device designed for ROM/GAME pirating would mean you can purchase 2 devices. A PassMe1 and GBA MP. |
What's wrong with PassMe2? |
PassMe2 requires SRAM. GBA Movie Player v2 CF does not have GBA SRAM. SuperCard and M3 have SRAM, but that PDF calls those cards piracy tools. |
What about the NoPass devices? I don't think they are considered piracy tools, as they can't be used on their own for much. A MaxMediaLauncher is still the same price or cheaper than passme2&clones, and it is reported to work with GBAMP, even on newer DS's
#98723 - ssj4android - Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:25 am
| JaJa wrote: |
Most of these devices ... don't support chishms libfat (although they will expect it to) and have poor homebrew compatibility.
People are going to be buying these for piracy, then finding out what cool things the homebrew community can offer, then getting frustrated that they don't work. |
That's what happaned with the Supercard and M3 SD at first. Did you want to boycott those?
#98726 - tepples - Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:11 am
| josath wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | SuperCard and M3 have SRAM, but that PDF calls those cards piracy tools. |
What about the NoPass devices? I don't think they are considered piracy tools |
Neither do I, but the PDF in question claims that all NoPass cards are made by pirate companies.
Yes I do use the MAX Media Launcher + GBAMP with my cousin's DS (v4). My boeuf was solely with the anti-piracy extremist views expressed in that PDF.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#98729 - HyperHacker - Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:33 am
I still think you could use a commercial cart's SRAM (uploaded via Gameshark) with a modified version of the program that waits for you to swap carts, and use PassMe2 with a GBAMP. But I suppose given how much of a pain it is to execute from SRAM, and how cheap NoPass cards are, nobody's going to do it...
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.
#98732 - tepples - Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:32 am
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| I still think you could use a commercial cart's SRAM (uploaded via Gameshark) |
If you're going to use one Datel product (Action Replay, rebranded as GameShark in some markets), you might as well use the easiest Datel product (MAX Media Launcher). Using any Datel products won't please the purists. Besides, PassMe2 has been out for a year; if PassMe2 with pak swapping were viable, it would already have been done.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#98791 - omaremad - Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:46 pm
I always wondered how homebrew started on the ds....
To find registers we reverse enginneer dumps, but to dump games we need to find the correct registers.
Its a chicken vs egg debate, and it ultimately leads to a dirty beggining.(if you know what i mean)
#98795 - Lynx - Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:27 pm
That's my point exactly. Every commercial device was made for piracy. M3 and SC were both made for piracy.. GBA Flash Carts were made for piracy.. and we can't really ban all devices for piracy or we wouldn't have homebrew at all. Homebrew has always needed piracy, I've always said that. If piracy didn't exist, we'd have 2 or 3 people that home built a GBA Flash Cart, and hopefully 1 or 2 of those people would have build the FPGA passthrough.. and the rest of us would be sitting on the side watching videos of people running homebrew.
So, again, I don't say to "ban" the device type.. Like NoPass, just find the companies that only care about piracy and "ban" them. And if there is a company that promotes homebrew on their devices.. aka, homebrew works and they aknowledge that, you promote that company.
As far as Datel is concerned.. the MML had a flaw (click-in slot) but other than that, I'd promote their devices. Competition is the industry is tuff.. But, if you purchase their 4GB harddrive, it has links listed to homebrew sites. Sure, it needs a LOT of help to be fully homebrew compatible, but they didn't need to have to links listed. They could have not even mentioned Homebrew.. so the fact that their stuff is selling at major stores like Best Buy and your average joe can walk in and say, "hmm. what's this thing?".. take it home, pop it in and see a diretory that will "teach" them about homebrew.. I'm all for it.. and I think everyone else should be as well.
Any other commercial products that actually even mention homebrew in them?
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NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#98807 - Dan2552 - Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:41 pm
GBAMP wasn't intended for piracy as said before..
#98810 - tepples - Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:19 pm
| Dan2552 wrote: |
| GBAMP wasn't intended for piracy as said before.. |
Then what's "FC Game" on the menu? Why does it advertise playing NES games of 193 KB or smaller? Given the small size of the NES homebrew scene compared to, say, the GBA homebrew scene at the time, what (wink nudge) were they talking about?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#98821 - HyperHacker - Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:37 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| If you're going to use one Datel product (Action Replay, rebranded as GameShark in some markets), you might as well use the easiest Datel product (MAX Media Launcher). Using any Datel products won't please the purists. |
True, but at least Gameshark isn't piracy-related. There's probably other similar devices you could use too.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.
#98864 - zzo38computer - Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:42 am
It would be good if you could store any .nds file (including homebrew files, because if only commercial files can be run then it is obviously no good) into the card, and it run directly, and you make multiple card and sell it without any additional equipment. If it would require some additional file to make keys and stuff work correctly, then it can be built-in and auto-convert when load to card if option is set.
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#98875 - Lynx - Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:18 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Dan2552 wrote: | | GBAMP wasn't intended for piracy as said before.. |
Then what's "FC Game" on the menu? Why does it advertise playing NES games of 193 KB or smaller? Given the small size of the NES homebrew scene compared to, say, the GBA homebrew scene at the time, what (wink nudge) were they talking about? |
Dude.. that's a hack job no doubt.. They got lucky that they could run ANY emus in 193KB of RAM space left over.. If they designed it for that use, they would have added something to make it be able to play all NES warez.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#105116 - Dracker - Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:37 am
Pretty clear cut imo. If there's no homebrew compatibility, there won't be any homebrewers. Just pirates. If there are no homebrewers on a device, there's no need to reverse engineer drivers. A boycott really wouldn't accomplish anything, since homebrewers wouldn't buy that device in the first place.
What about slot-1 solutions that WORK with homebrew like the upcoming DS-X? See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnT3obt1XTA&eurl= - No new fat driver required.
#105181 - josath - Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:28 pm
Unfortunately, homebrewers usually also look for the cheapest solutions. Currently DS-X is one of the most expensive solutions. It's not crazy expensive, but it is a bit on the steep side.