#128323 - KeithE - Thu May 10, 2007 5:01 pm
I'm getting some samples soon of a 16Mbit DS cartridge that can be purchased for less than $15 wholesale. 32Mbit will come soon, don't know exactly when, and the cost will be $3-$5 more. Here is what I know about the cards - very little so far:
16Mbit NOR flash
2Mbit EEPROM memory
Load software through the gba slot
I'll post an update when I get the cards and have a chance to try them out.
#128330 - Devil_Spawn - Thu May 10, 2007 6:15 pm
16Mbit->2MB, i dont think that this is big enough for amplituds
#128354 - Dood77 - Thu May 10, 2007 11:08 pm
| KeithE wrote: |
| 32Mbit will come soon, |
32Mbit -> 4MB
#128386 - mastertop101 - Fri May 11, 2007 3:18 am
Hmmm, interesting,
but..
| Quote: |
Load software through the gba slot |
what do you mean?
#128389 - dantheman - Fri May 11, 2007 3:27 am
It probably means that it is similar to the current N-card clones in that the flash memory on the slot-1 card is read/written to through a slot-2 cartridge that connects to your computer via USB.
#128425 - Sektor - Fri May 11, 2007 12:13 pm
It could just mean you can put an app in the 2MB and use it to boot a slot2 device in DS mode. If the cards could be shipped with a wifi download and execute program installed, they would be very cheap for development. You could also make a small game with a wifi download feature built-in and sell it.
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#128456 - knight0fdragon - Fri May 11, 2007 5:22 pm
sounds like the datel MMD DS card, that has a smalll amount of EEPROM, and has the ability to also load slot 2 device, so it is a No-Pass + a flash card, pretty cool to the NO FILASHME guys,btw KeithE, is this the same guy where you get the cheap GBA cards from?
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#128472 - alekmaul - Fri May 11, 2007 8:46 pm
yeah, great but for homebrews, the main pb is to have also a libfat compatibility or homebrews compatibilty too (see the last G6ds without that ...) , don't you think so ?
So keithe, what can you answer about that, is your device fully compatible with homebrews ?
#128477 - KeithE - Fri May 11, 2007 9:17 pm
I haven't actually tried the devices yet, so I'm not exactly clear on how to load the game onto the card - I'll find out in the next week or two.
They are not coming from the same place that I got the cheap GBA cartridges from.
As far as I know, there is no DLDI driver for the cards (yet). They do work with homebrew though - SpoutEX is the game that I asked the manufacturer to test for me, and it worked perfectly.
#128483 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Fri May 11, 2007 10:21 pm
Yeah, DLDI would be of the utmost importance so hopefully the manufacturer will be forthcoming with some info on the FAT. Possibly an existing DLDI will work if these cards are very similar to an existing kit.
2MB sure is smal, though it would be big enough for most games. 4MB will be better, but I hope it's not as much more expensive as you think. 8MB would be even better, I think that would be the perfect size if it was cheap enough.
This sounds great, though, I can't wait to hear what you have to report, Keith.
How will ordering go, will we have to place a large order as a group in order to get the sub-$15 price or can individuals order small numbers themselves? If we do put together a large order of say 100 or more cards, would there be an additional proce break?
...word is bondage...
#128544 - knight0fdragon - Sat May 12, 2007 3:52 pm
you know, with it being so cheap, the EEPROM is probably limited in how many writes you get compared to the norm, I will probably buy a few of these to get some homebrew demos out to companies or something haha
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#129292 - KeithE - Mon May 21, 2007 5:00 pm
Here's an update:
I got the cards. The software is loaded using this method:
1) Patch your game with a patcher provided by the manufacturer - I'm not sure exactly what the patcher is doing - something with the header.
2) Put your game on an SD card.
3) Insert the SD card into a neo2SD or neo3SD slot-2 cartridge that has a special menu on it.
4) Boot the slot-2 card in DS mode (using a passme/passthrough card or flashme).
5) Insert the DS card in slot-1 and press A to copy the game from slot-2 to slot-1.
6) Insert the slot-1 card with your game into any DS (no need for flashme or passme) and enjoy.
There is currently a bug in the transfer program so it only works with games that are less than 700Kbytes, but the manufacturer is working on fixing it.
To get the $15 price, we need to place a large group order, but individual orders can be small.
#129310 - cory1492 - Mon May 21, 2007 8:17 pm
A neo product, or would the transfer program be made more portable in the future?
#129315 - KeithE - Mon May 21, 2007 9:09 pm
I'm trying to get the source code of the transfer program so versions could be made for other slot-2 devices - GBA movie player, supercard, etc.
#129389 - melw - Tue May 22, 2007 9:05 am
Sounds promising... Especially if the 32Mbit/4Mb version is also affordable what comes to retail price. In other words - here's at least one developer interested in a group order.
#129430 - KeithE - Tue May 22, 2007 7:41 pm
Source code for the transfer program will be released. That means we'll be able to write our own app for loading games onto the card from any slot-2 cartridge.
#130000 - josath - Wed May 30, 2007 12:01 am
couple questions:
1. Does it correctly use the title & icon from the .nds files in the ds firmware's main menu?
2. Are you planning to coordinate a group order? so we each pay you $15*quantity+shipping, and you place a large order, then ship them out to us?
3. When do you think this will happen? (your last post was a week ago)
thanks! this sounds really cool, i'll probably buy a couple myself
#130045 - KeithE - Wed May 30, 2007 2:06 pm
1) Yes
2) Yes, exactly
3) It depends on when the manufacturer can make it work with games that are larger than about 650KBytes. Probably within a month or two.
#130103 - Alias1 - Thu May 31, 2007 12:11 am
Couple more questions
What kind of breakpoint are we talking to bring the price down?, i assume its not costing anywhere near $15 to make but the manu needs to make money, do you have prices should larger numbers be ordered? (Aka 100-10,000 range)
Why so little memory, the difference in price between a 2MB flash chip and a flash chip in the 20-50MB range is Pittance, is it a limitation of the carts hardware? if the carts could be made at 16MB-24MB, i could see full games fitting on the carts
Sounds cool none the less
#130104 - chuckstudios - Thu May 31, 2007 12:15 am
| Alias1 wrote: |
| if the carts could be made at 16MB-24MB, i could see full games fitting on the carts |
What currently available DS homebrew that does not use an appended file system like GBFS or PAFS is that large?
#130126 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Thu May 31, 2007 3:48 am
Currently none do obviously (I don't even think any DS homebrews that do use an external or appended file system are that big at all are they?), but it wouldn't be hard at all to fill up 8 or 16MB if you started including large scrolling backgrounds, multiple pre-defined levels, PCM audio tracks, etc. In short, if you made a game on the scale of a commercial game. Most homebrewer (on the DS or otherwise) don't have the time and/or inclination to do this, which is why most homebrews are basically just a game engine and nothing else and why they're usually also quite small.
I think a product like this one sort of demands more complex and involved games, though. And so, it also needs to be larger. Sure, it would be fun to buy one or two to write my game to and have in my collection or give to friends, but I don't think anyone's going to buy 100 of the things just to write a simple 1MB mini-game to them.
Kieth, are you getting these cards from NeoFlash?
...word is bondage...
#130128 - dantheman - Thu May 31, 2007 4:41 am
SnezziDS requires a device with GBA compatibility, can have binaries larger than 4 MB, and does not have a "standard" filesystem used by other homebrew apps as far as I know. However, this is the only program I know of that does this. The only other app I use that's larger than 4 MB is TranslatorDS, which uses PAFS.
#130150 - Alias1 - Thu May 31, 2007 10:02 am
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
Currently none do obviously (I don't even think any DS homebrews that do use an external or appended file system are that big at all are they?), but it wouldn't be hard at all to fill up 8 or 16MB if you started including large scrolling backgrounds, multiple pre-defined levels, PCM audio tracks, etc. In short, if you made a game on the scale of a commercial game. Most homebrewer (on the DS or otherwise) don't have the time and/or inclination to do this, which is why most homebrews are basically just a game engine and nothing else and why they're usually also quite small.
|
*Hands Sweater Fish A Cookie*
Took the words out of my mouth
Im just curious as to why, I'm Sure KeithE would be getting larger carts if it was viable
#130185 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Thu May 31, 2007 5:40 pm
| dantheman wrote: |
| SnezziDS requires a device with GBA compatibility, can have binaries larger than 4 MB, and does not have a "standard" filesystem used by other homebrew apps as far as I know. However, this is the only program I know of that does this. The only other app I use that's larger than 4 MB is TranslatorDS, which uses PAFS. |
Tickle Girl is something around 8 or 9MB and I believe it uses romfs. Alias1 was talking about 16-24MB, though, which is quite a bit bigger than any existing homebrew that I've come across.
Aside from the fact that these cards should be largely aimed at developers who want to open up their development to larger more intricate games, even for developers that stick to the small engine-based games like normal homebrew (which in many cases are better gaming experiences than bigger commercial-type games, to be honest), the cards would be best used for collections of three or more of those types of games, which would very quickly fill up 2 or 4MB. The more I think about it, the more I think that even the 4MB really won't be big enough to be very useful beyond a one-off novelty item.
...word is bondage...
#130207 - KeithE - Thu May 31, 2007 9:20 pm
For high volumes, you can go directly to the manufacturer - neoflash. I'm willing to buy in medium (several hundred units) quantity, but I'm not going to get into the business of high volume importing.
The hardware that is designed for the 2MByte cartridges can only support up to 8 MByte memory. For larger memory capacities, the hardware would have to be redesigned. The price does go up as you add more memory, though I'm not sure exactly how much. The price increase for adding memory is more significant at smaller volumes than at mass production volumes.
The main uses I see for these 16Mbit cartridges are distributing your games and demos to potential employers and giving your games away as gifts to friends/family. I think that these are very exciting uses, so there is definitely a reason to make these inexensive small memory cards. Currently, it is quite cost-prohibitive to distrubute or gift your games on a DS card.
I agree that if you want to sell your game, it will probably need to have more content/music/graphics, which will require larger capacity cards - that's another discussion though.
#130208 - Alias1 - Thu May 31, 2007 9:32 pm
| KeithE wrote: |
For high volumes, you can go directly to the manufacturer - neoflash. I'm willing to buy in medium (several hundred units) quantity, but I'm not going to get into the business of high volume importing.
The hardware that is designed for the 2MByte cartridges can only support up to 8 MByte memory. For larger memory capacities, the hardware would have to be redesigned. The price does go up as you add more memory, though I'm not sure exactly how much. The price increase for adding memory is more significant at smaller volumes than at mass production volumes.
The main uses I see for these 16Mbit cartridges are distributing your games and demos to potential employers and giving your games away as gifts to friends/family. I think that these are very exciting uses, so there is definitely a reason to make these inexensive small memory cards. Currently, it is quite cost-prohibitive to distrubute or gift your games on a DS card.
I agree that if you want to sell your game, it will probably need to have more content/music/graphics, which will require larger capacity cards - that's another discussion though. |
thanks for the clarification, i'll likely order a couple, just for a decent PDA suite for the DS (takes too long to boot my flashcard for it to be useful)
#131059 - ecurtz - Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:31 pm
I'm definitely interested in the 50-100 unit range if this goes forward BUT I'd only be able to use 32Mbit carts, I'm already over 8Mbit without any sounds or level data. In fact if they can do 64Mbit that would be much safer for my needs.
I'd get 1/2 dozen of any size just to play with / encourage the manufacturer that he market exists.
#131123 - nl - Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:41 am
i'd also buy a few 100s, but i'd need a sample first to see if it fits my needs. i tried to contact the supplier directly as you suggested, but without any reaction so far (their website is a bit obscure, zero contact info but just a form to fill in). 16 mbit would be fine.
#131188 - mastertop101 - Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:19 am
Just by curiosity, why would you want that many cards?
#131195 - tepples - Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:17 am
To start an online store.
PROTIP: It appears that you can sell flash cards on an eBay store if they are preloaded with works that you are permitted under copyright law to reproduce and distribute, such as your own works.
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#131207 - nl - Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:18 am
yes, to distribute my software on it. such a cart would be perfect for that because it is affordable and can't be used for game piracy.
#131269 - MrD - Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:57 am
| Quote: |
| PROTIP: It appears that you can sell flash cards on an eBay store if they are preloaded with works that you are permitted under copyright law to reproduce and distribute, such as your own works. |
Oh, shoot.
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#135831 - KeithE - Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:53 pm
I now have some of these cartridges that work with games up to 2 megabytes (16 megabits). Here is a picture. The visible chip is the flash memory. It does stick out slightly from the case - a little less than half a millimeter, but the card fits into the DS perfectly.
If people are still interested I'd be happy to do a group order. Group ordered cards will come with a blank white label that you can write on. If you want to try out the card before committing, there are a couple options:
1) Send your game to me and I'll test it for you.
2) I can loan a cartridge to you if you'll pay for shipping both ways.
Games are loaded onto this cartridge exactly the same way as the MK6-motion. See the neoflash website for details.
Last edited by KeithE on Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
#135834 - FifthE1ement - Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 pm
Can you give us more info on the manufacturer and/or pm it to me? I am very curious about this device although its sad to see it doesnt sit flush.
FifthE1ement
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#136147 - nl - Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:37 pm
Thanks for the update.
| KeithE wrote: |
| Here is a picture. The visible chip is the flash memory. It does stick out slightly from the case - a little less than half a millimeter, but the card fits into the DS perfectly. |
So if you put a sticker on it, it will protrude a bit and look not very professional but like something handcrafted which will break soon.
| Quote: |
Games are loaded onto this cartridge exactly the same way as the MK6-motion. See the neoflash website for details. |
The neoflash website is such a mess that I'm a little scared. It is very difficult to tell the product types from each other, there is no point where one could get an overview about all the ultra- giga- and gold stuff.
I'm afraid they may discontinue this card soon and offer something "better" with different specification and different software, they just don't seem like the reliable source I'm looking for. Or do you have a different impression?
Anyway, if they manage to fit it into a standard card without that embarrassing hole / sticking out thing I'd still be interested.
#136152 - KeithE - Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:27 pm
I agree with you 100% that this is not a perfect product. Hopefully a fully-enclosed, larger memory capacity, less expensive DS card will be developed. But for now this is the best way that I know of to put your game on a card for sale, demo, donation, or gift.
Of course a better card with different specifications will be developed in the future. As with any product, the consumer has to weigh the pros and cons to make a decision whether to buy now or wait.
Here is a direct link to the download page for the software to put your game on the card: http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php/topic,4360.0.html
If anyone has a lead on other cheap DS cards, please let us know. I think they would be very valuable to the DS homebrew community.
#136171 - spinal_cord - Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:37 pm
So this is a mk6 without the motion stuff?
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#136203 - KeithE - Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:58 am
Yeah, I think it is.
Neoflash made the offer to sell a bunch of them (several hundred) at a low price. I don't know whether they are planning to sell them retail or not - probably not.
#136240 - Lynx - Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:48 pm
| Quote: |
| Of course a better card with different specifications will be developed in the future. As with any product, the consumer has to weigh the pros and cons to make a decision whether to buy now or wait. |
Don't forget the MAIN purpose of this thread.. CHEAP! More space and features = more expensive.
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#136506 - spinal_cord - Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:32 pm
If only I had some money...
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#136540 - knight0fdragon - Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:27 pm
define cheap in USD
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#136545 - josath - Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:37 pm
Well, the next cheapest way of getting homebrew on a DS is probably a chinese R4 + small microSD, that will cost you at least $30 in bulk. So $15 is half the price of the next cheapest option.
#136600 - Lynx - Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:07 am
That's the problem.. I look at it like this. For a homebrew game to sell, it either has to be A) better then commercial games, which is very difficutl, or B) cheaper then commercial games.
Don't forget, you can get the Datel GnM for $30 with everything you need, MicroSD card included. And it's turning out to be a pretty good homebrew device. A little slow loading.. but for $30 total.. not all that bad of a device.
So, you can purchase a commercial game for $20.. so for most people, I would think the homebrew needs to be cheaper than that. If you are getting the cards for $15.. that doesn't leave ANY room to make a profit.. So, to be able to sell a game for $15 and make very little money off of it, you'd have to get the cards for $10 with minimal up front expenses to be able to program them. If you wanted to put your own labels on them, it would have to be even cheaper.
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#136602 - calcprogrammer1 - Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:25 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| Don't forget, you can get the Datel GnM for $30 with everything you need, MicroSD card included. And it's turning out to be a pretty good homebrew device. A little slow loading.. but for $30 total.. not all that bad of a device. |
No thanks to Datel themselves, but yeah, for $30 you can get a decent and fairly well supported flashcart with removable, upgradable memory, and 128MB is a lot bigger than 16Mbit (4MB I think). If homebrewers were going to sell games on a cartridge, it'd have to be a fairly cheap cartridge, and that's probably not going to happen with Flash memory, though you can get a 1GB MicroSD these days for $8 online, but you'd need a microSD supporting card.
Plus, with the GnM or other removable media device, apps like Colors!, which are very close to professional quality, or very good quality homebrew, need the removable memory to upload files that the user creates on the device.
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#136610 - Ant6n - Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:38 am
i dont see how you can get a r4+micro sd for 30$ (shipped??), or something similar (where?).
wouldnt it be possible to put a ds game in one of the gba cartridges keith sold and use some sort of passme. i think these went for 10$, 16mb; and, well, a passme you at least only have to get once.
#137018 - melw - Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:15 pm
Lynx, I don't think anyone would really to make profit with homebrew with this kind of cart-prices. But having a $15 carts for promotional usage is pretty nice option. Say you have a game or application you want to show to people, or using it as a part of your portfolio / CV when searching for a job in the games industry. Having a relatively cheap format that you can share and doesn't require flashed DS's is a positive scenario already on its own.
KeithE, what's the current status of the group order?
#137045 - KeithE - Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:43 pm
Current Status: waiting for enough orders - need 200 to place the group order.
10 cartridges ordered, 190 more to go.
#137052 - josath - Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:52 pm
So what is the official price if we want to reserve some, incl shipping, and how do we go about ordering, should we just PM you?
#137095 - KeithE - Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:36 pm
The price per cartridge is $15
Shipping within USA is $5 per order
Shipping outside of USA is $20 per order
I'll mail the cartridges in a box so they don't get damaged during shipping.
To reserve you can post here or send me a PM. No need to send payment until we have enough to place the order.
#138818 - melw - Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:09 am
Perhaps there should be a separate thread or announcement that says "flashcard group order" in the topic, just in case someone has missed this one?