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DS Flash Equipment > This is illegal, you know

#174885 - tepples - Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:03 am

BBC reports that SLOT-1 cards have been ruled illegal in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
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#174888 - elwing - Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:44 am

does it means the death of this forum as homebrew became illegal since there's no legal way to make it run on a DS now and the fact that this forum ban illegal things?

#174889 - Pete_Lockwood - Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:58 am

Laughable.

So no more blank CDs or DVDs right? No hard drives either, come to that.
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#174890 - headspin - Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:11 pm

Just move to the iPhone instead! I'm sick of being treated like a criminal writing indy games for the DS.
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#174892 - vuurrobin - Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:33 pm

Pete_Lockwood wrote:
So no more blank CDs or DVDs right? No hard drives either, come to that.


wrong analogy. you dont put your files on a flashcard, you put them on a microsd card. and AFAIK, CDs, DVDs and harddrives are open standards, whereas flashcards are made specifically for the DS.


flashcards have also been ruled illegal in the netherlands, but there was 1 flashcard that was ruled as not illegal. we are not sure which card that was, but we asume its the iplayer because it doesn't allow piracy.

headspin wrote:
Just move to the iPhone instead! I'm sick of being treated like a criminal writing indy games for the DS.


I'd rather move to android or the pandora handheld. mostly because I don't have an Iphone or an mac, but also because I don't like the Iphone or apple (okay, I don't have an android phone or an pandora either, yet).
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#174894 - headspin - Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:27 pm

vuurrobin wrote:
I'd rather move to android or the pandora handheld. mostly because I don't have an Iphone or an mac, but also because I don't like the Iphone or apple (okay, I don't have an android phone or an pandora either, yet).


The problem with android is that there are so many different types of hardware that it's very difficult to write something that will perform well on every device. Can you afford 30 different phones for testing? With iPhone you only have to test on an iPhone 3G or iPod 2G and you will know it will run fine on all devices. Secondly the android market, as far as going commercial is concerned, will not be anything close to Apple's App Store for a long time.
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#174895 - tepples - Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:57 pm

headspin wrote:
The problem with android is that there are so many different types of hardware that it's very difficult to write something that will perform well on every device.

Yet PC games still manage to work on both Intel and AMD CPUs and both NVIDIA and ATI graphics.

Quote:
Can you afford 30 different phones for testing? With iPhone you only have to test on an iPhone 3G or iPod 2G and you will know it will run fine on all devices.

Except for iPad or iPhone 4 (which still doesn't have an iPod Touch counterpart without a minimum $1,500 for 24 months service plan).

Quote:
Secondly the android market, as far as going commercial is concerned, will not be anything close to Apple's App Store for a long time.

Android appears to have risen to half of Apple's market share.

As I said in a comment to the Slashdot article, I'd back the Pandora PDA, except they just can't make them fast enough. I just used my Pandora money to buy a netbook.
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#174896 - headspin - Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:30 pm

The thing is the users of iPhone are more likely to PAY for an app than Android users are. Not to mention the quality of apps on Apple's App Store is so much better.

You can't really compare a PC to a mobile device. There is so much less room for sloppy coding on a mobile.
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#174897 - fincs - Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:01 pm

Slot 1 cards are still not illegal here in Spain.
Also, Apple's app architecture is so closed down I don't even bother caring about iDevice development. As for Android, they don't let you easily run native code (ok, libraries) & instead force you to use Java.
IMO Nintendo handheld homebrew development is much more fun.

PD: I see what you did in the title.

#174898 - Rajveer - Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:28 am

"The court affirmed that game copiers first circumvent Nintendo's security systems before any non-infringing application can be played on Nintendo's handheld products,"

I'm confused: are they illegal because they bypass Nintendo's security, or because in doing so they allow piracy?

#174899 - elwing - Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:14 am

Rajveer wrote:
"The court affirmed that game copiers first circumvent Nintendo's security systems before any non-infringing application can be played on Nintendo's handheld products,"

I'm confused: are they illegal because they bypass Nintendo's security, or because in doing so they allow piracy?


because they bypass nintendo security, it would be hard to ban them using the "they allow piracy" mofo, since there's lot of homebrew to justify a legal use (and some pretty good that is, I didn't played a singel comercial game for 6month, only using homebrew). In that case you could also ban computers, any numerical media and things like that...


edit: I was wondering if i'll buy a 3DS but since nintendo reaction regarding homebrew i'll probably not get one and stick to my soon (I hope) to arrive pandora...

#174900 - wintermute - Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:09 am

vuurrobin wrote:

flashcards have also been ruled illegal in the netherlands, but there was 1 flashcard that was ruled as not illegal. we are not sure which card that was, but we asume its the iplayer because it doesn't allow piracy.


Was the card ruled not illegal or was the card not ruled illegal? Subtle difference I know but unfortunately a legally important difference.

Here's a ink to the summary judgement of the case for those interested in the legal arguments.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2010/1932.html

Something that hasn't been widely reported is that the defendants in the case settled out of court.

elwing wrote:

does it means the death of this forum as homebrew became illegal since there's no legal way to make it run on a DS now and the fact that this forum ban illegal things?


No, the ruling applies to the UK and copyright infringement. Interestingly circumvention of ETMs on the iPhone has been ruled legal in the US, see http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/

Another ongoing case to watch - http://www.technollama.co.uk/landmark-software-copyright-case
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#174901 - spinal_cord - Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:53 am

Surely under that ruling, the following should also be banned in the UK -

CD players - allow you to play pirated CDs
DVD players - allow you to play pirated DVDs
VCR's - allow recording and playing of copyrighted movies
HiFi systems - Allow playing and recording of copyrighted material from radio, CD, Vinal, casette.
DVR systems - designed specifically for recording copyrighted media
Person media players (ipod etc.) - designed specifically for playing copyrighted media
and the best one - Web browsers! - in order to view a web page, it must be copied to your local computer, according to these opinionated judges, this is piracy.

There should be no legal issues with bypassing security if that is the ONLY way to run homebrew on that system.
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#174902 - wintermute - Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:07 am

None of those devices require the breaking of DRM or ETMs in order to consume unauthorised copies. They also all have commercially significant purpose other than circumvention and none of them are primarily designed, produced, adapted or performed for the purpose of enabling or facilitating the circumvention of technical measures.

Try reading the actual ruling I linked instead of making assumptions.
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#174903 - spinal_cord - Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:58 am

However Nintendos main argument is that of piracy.
If Nintendo used their brains, they would release some sort of dev kit aimed specifically at homebrew coders the same way that Apple has for ?60 instead of ?10,000. Then there would be far less piracy as the system would not need to be hacked in order fir homebrewers to use it. It can be seen in DS homebrew history, that it was always homebrew coders who did the initial opening of the system, not the flash cart manufacturers, who just copy the methods once they have been discovered.

- I though DVD's are encrypted, does that not count?
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#174904 - vuurrobin - Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:00 pm

wintermute wrote:
vuurrobin wrote:

flashcards have also been ruled illegal in the netherlands, but there was 1 flashcard that was ruled as not illegal. we are not sure which card that was, but we asume its the iplayer because it doesn't allow piracy.


Was the card ruled not illegal or was the card not ruled illegal? Subtle difference I know but unfortunately a legally important difference.


here is the official ruling in dutch:

Quote:
nut van de alternatieve functies

5.13. Als onvoldoende weersproken staat vast dat de door gedaagden verhandelde flashcards en modchips slechts een beperkt commercieel nut hebben anders dan ter omzeiling van de beschermde werking van de door Nintendo gehanteerde voorzieningen. Nintendo heeft aangevoerd dat de door gedaagden verhandelde producten vrijwel uitsluitend worden gebruikt voor het spelen van ongeautoriseerde kopie?n. Deze stelling wordt ondersteund door vele uitlatingen van fabrikanten, aanbieders en gebruikers van die producten die Nintendo heeft overgelegd en waaruit die toepassing blijkt (producties 19-24 van Nintendo). Gedaagden hebben hier slechts tegenin gebracht dat de door hen verhandelde producten ook andere toepassingen van de spelcomputers van Nintendo mogelijk maken, zoals het spelen van zogeheten homebrew spellen van derden, het afspelen van muziekbestanden, internetten, fotograferen en bellen. Zij stellen dat hun modchips en flashcards ?op grote schaal? worden gebruikt voor die alternatieve doeleinden, maar de Webwinkels en [L] hebben op vragen van de rechtbank niet kunnen specificeren hoe groot de omvang van dat gebruik is en hebben de stelling ook niet onderbouwd. Dat de producten daadwerkelijk op grote schaal voor die alternatieve doeleinden worden gebruikt, is in het licht van het voorgaande niet aannemelijk, mede gelet op het feit dat de spelcomputers van Nintendo specifiek zijn ontworpen voor het spelen van de Nintendo spellen en niet voor het - buiten het kader van een spel - afspelen van muziekbestanden, internetten, fotograferen en bellen.

[K]

5.14. Het voorgaande geldt niet voor de door [K] verhandelde producten. Als onweersproken staat vast dat op de door hem verhandelde producten geen ongeautoriseerde kopie?n van de computerspellen van Nintendo kunnen worden afgespeeld. Gelet op de strekking van artikel 29a Aw, te weten het voorkomen of beperken van handelingen ten aanzien van werken die door de maker of zijn rechtverkrijgenden niet zijn toegestaan, kan niet worden volgehouden dat de door [K] verhandelde producten daaronder vallen. Om dezelfde reden strandt het beroep van Nintendo op artikel 32a Aw (voor zover dat al van toepassing is ten aanzien van de computerspellen van Nintendo) en haar beroep op onrechtmatig handelen in algemene zin.


it basically says that it itsn't fully proved that flashcards are mostly used for homebrew while it is mostly used for piracy, and that therefore they are illegal. it then says that it has been proven that the sold products of [K] ([K] is one of the defendants) cannot be used for playing unauthorised copies of DS games, and that they therefore cannot be seen as illegal.

so it was ruled not illegal. I think.


edit:

spinal_cord wrote:
If Nintendo used their brains, they would release some sort of dev kit aimed specifically at homebrew coders the same way that Apple has for ?60 instead of ?10,000.


1 problem would be that small developing teams that now has the professional devkit would then move to the homebrew devkit, causing less sells in the professional devkit.
an other problem could be that the homebrew games could start competing with the professional games, which is not something that I think that the professional developers want.
and a third problem could be that someone can write a program that can play pirated games.

but despite that, I also think that nintendo should lower there standards so homebrew programmers can create (and sell?) games, as long as they can prevent the above problems.
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#174922 - tepples - Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:54 pm

vuurrobin wrote:
an other problem could be that the homebrew games could start competing with the professional games

This is the conspiracy theory that I used to promote as a subtext for the whole time that I used to be active on gbadev.

Quote:
and a third problem could be that someone can write a program that can play pirated games.

Any homebrew environment can be used to play infringing games. Even if you program the game yourself, you're still likely to get a cease and desist for using a sphere with a lune-shaped mouth that opens and closes.

Quote:
but despite that, I also think that nintendo should lower there standards so homebrew programmers can create (and sell?) games, as long as they can prevent the above problems.

Nintendo lowered its standards slightly from GameCube to Wii; now it takes any developer with a corporation or LLC, a separate office space, and a prior title on another platform. And look at all the shovelware that produced.
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#174923 - sonny_jim - Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:38 pm

Quote:

Then there would be far less piracy as the system would not need to be hacked in order fir homebrewers to use it.

But, this puts you in a situation like the PS3, where all the 'fun stuff' is locked out in case you manage to do something interesting with it. But I suppose some access is better than none.
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Quote:

Would that be the internet driver for the program?

#174925 - ant512 - Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:12 am

vuurrobin wrote:

1 problem would be that small developing teams that now has the professional devkit would then move to the homebrew devkit, causing less sells in the professional devkit.
an other problem could be that the homebrew games could start competing with the professional games, which is not something that I think that the professional developers want.
and a third problem could be that someone can write a program that can play pirated games.


None of which have been a problem for the Xbox 360's community games programme. You could argue that XNA gives you greatly reduced functionality; on the other hand, it's an officially-sanctioned way for people to get their creations onto Xbox Live. MS even give you a great dev kit for free.

If Nintendo thought there was any value to be added to their systems by homebrew, they'd try it. DSiWare was a great opportunity for this, but clearly homebrew doesn't even register with them as a possibility.

#174926 - spinal_cord - Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:44 pm

vuurrobin wrote:

1 problem would be that small developing teams that now has the professional devkit would then move to the homebrew devkit, causing less sells in the professional devkit.
an other problem could be that the homebrew games could start competing with the professional games, which is not something that I think that the professional developers want.
and a third problem could be that someone can write a program that can play pirated games.


Simple -

Homebrew = DSi/Wii ware store ONLY. Included in that would be things like file size restrictions, no fmv etc.

Commercial = Hardware only sales (CD,cart etc.) with no restrictions.
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#174937 - tepples - Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:43 pm

Limiting it to a 40 MB footprint won't help when an allegedly pirated copy of Tetris can be crammed into 0.004 MB.

And no, the XNA devkit is not free; first I have to buy a $200 operating system made by the same company, and then I have to pay $99 per year for a certificate. It sounds like something that Apple would copy for its iPhone developer program.
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#174938 - ant512 - Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:06 pm

tepples wrote:
And no, the XNA devkit is not free; first I have to buy a $200 operating system made by the same company, and then I have to pay $99 per year for a certificate.


By the same argument, I could argue that devkitARM isn't free. First I have to buy a $200 computer, then I have to somehow get hold of a Linux distro (either by paying for phoneline rental and getting broadband, or by buying a blank DVD and convincing someone to download and burn it for me). Then I need to get hold of devkitARM somehow, presumably by buying a blank CD and getting the same schmuck who got my OS to download the archive for me. Then I need to buy a flash cart and an SD card. That's what, $250 so far? Assuming I don't get my own phoneline, that is.

If you've already got a Linux computer and don't want to test on real hardware, devkitARM costs you nothing. Similarly, if you've already got a Windows computer and don't want to test on real hardware, the XNA SDK costs you nothing.

The $99 you pay to get onto Xbox Live is the only real difference. If you could pay $99 for an official DS flash cartridge - made by Nintendo - that:

- Didn't run pirated software
- Came with a complete SDK and IDE
- Included an online distribution system, hosted by Nintendo, accessible to anyone with the same flash cartridge and that could actually make you some money
- Wasn't going to disappear one day because Nintendo had managed to sue the distributors and manufacturers into oblivion

would you turn it down?

tepples wrote:
It sounds like something that Apple would copy for its iPhone developer program.


And look at the amazing success they had with it. Coding for iOS devices takes away a lot of your freedom - you're limited to public APIs and suffer at the whims of Apple's latest vetting policy. On the other hand, there are thousands of applications out there and a *massive* audience for your software. How many DS flash cart owners actually try any homebrew? And, moreover, how many would be willing to pay for it?

#174942 - headspin - Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:57 pm

ant512: Well said. We could argue all day about the semantics of what it really costs to start developing for a system. The bottom line is we assume you have a PC running Windows or a Mac running OSX already. Statistically it's more likely you're not running a Linux machine. So if we can assume all this, point-of-entry once you have an Apple or PC is zero. You only need $99 if you want to run on hardware, but the SDK is free, and with the iPhone SDK you get a wonderful emulator, source level debugger and IDE. With Windows you get a great IDE and debugger (and a wonderful language called C#). All for free.

If you want to get on the App Store, pay the $99 and buy an iPod for testing on hardware (cost about the same as a DS+illegal cart). If you're talented you can make that money back in a few months with your great app idea on the App store.

Can you do that with a Nintendo DS and devkitARM? Don't get me wrong it's a great development environment. But there is no source code level debugger or decent emulator. I still have a bug in my Detective game which appears to be random and never crashed in the emulator. The best emulator (No$GBA) is no longer available because the author is MIA.

So when it comes down to it, it's actually a better choice to support the companies that support us. Because Nintendo clearly doesn't give a toss about us.
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#174953 - tepples - Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:28 pm

ant512 wrote:
tepples wrote:
And no, the XNA devkit is not free; first I have to buy a $200 operating system made by the same company, and then I have to pay $99 per year for a certificate.

By the same argument, I could argue that devkitARM isn't free. First I have to buy a $200 computer

One of my computers meets all system requirements of XNA Game Studio except the CPU is too slow and it has Intel 82845G graphics. Another meets all requirements except it came with Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) instead of Windows. Should I buy one Xbox 360 and one copy of Windows to run XNA Game Studio, or should I buy four iPod Touch units (one for each player) to run Xcode?

Quote:
The $99 you pay to get onto Xbox Live is the only real difference.

There are a few other drawbacks of XNA:
  • You can't synthesize and play audio at run time. All audio must be pre-recorded and stored in an XACT archive. It has been suggested that this was on purpose to discourage development of emulators.
  • You can't include dialogue in a constructed language, even if one of the goals of the game is for your character to learn that language.
  • Ports from other platforms are because most other languages used for developing games do not compile to verifiably type-safe CIL. C++/CLI, for example, uses a completely different, incompatible syntax for "handles" (the counterpart to pointers) compared to C++. It has been suggested that this was on purpose to encourage exclusive development.

Quote:
If you could pay $99 for an official DS flash cartridge - made by Nintendo - that:

- Didn't run pirated software

If Nintendo would consider The Great Giana Sisters (a Mario clone) and Blockbox (a Tetris clone) to be pirated software, how would a flash card determine that?

Quote:
- Came with a complete SDK and IDE
- Included an online distribution system, hosted by Nintendo, accessible to anyone with the same flash cartridge and that could actually make you some money
- Wasn't going to disappear one day because Nintendo had managed to sue the distributors and manufacturers into oblivion

would you turn it down?

I already own a copy of WarioWare DIY. All elements are there except for the "money" part.
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#174955 - ant512 - Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:01 pm

tepples wrote:
One of my computers meets all system requirements of XNA Game Studio except the CPU is too slow and it has Intel 82845G graphics. Another meets all requirements except it came with Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) instead of Windows. Should I buy one Xbox 360 and one copy of Windows to run XNA Game Studio, or should I buy four iPod Touch units (one for each player) to run Xcode?


No, you should obviously buy four DS handhelds, 4 flash carts and 4 SD cards to do 4-player DS development. What's your point? If you're developing for a system you'll need to spend money to buy the test units and something to develop with.

tepples wrote:
You can't synthesize and play audio at run time. All audio must be pre-recorded and stored in an XACT archive. It has been suggested that this was on purpose to discourage development of emulators.


Interesting reason, but I'm not convinced. Considering any emulators would have to ship with ROMs to be usable, which would undoubtedly infringe on someone's copyright, it's unlikely that anyone would be daft enough to write an emulator knowing that MS wouldn't allow it to be distributed. I wonder if synthesising audio requires lower-level access to the sound hardware, which in turn represents an attack vector for breaking into the 360's security system?


tepples wrote:
You can't include dialogue in a constructed language, even if one of the goals of the game is for your character to learn that language.


That's a strange one, but if you want to use their distribution network I suppose you have to play by MS' rules.

tepples wrote:
Ports from other platforms are because most other languages used for developing games do not compile to verifiably type-safe CIL. C++/CLI, for example, uses a completely different, incompatible syntax for "handles" (the counterpart to pointers) compared to C++. It has been suggested that this was on purpose to encourage exclusive development.


Or it could just be that C++/CLI's handles are designed to interact with the managed .NET objects presented by XNA, which makes it obvious which objects need to be manually deleted (standard pointers) and which are garbage collected (.NET handles). The version of C available in Xcode to Snow Leopard users features closures ('blocks'). This isn't to encourage "exclusive development"; it's to take advantage of the automated multithreading system in the OS.

Sometimes a new feature is just a new feature, not a conspiracy.

tepples wrote:
If Nintendo would consider The Great Giana Sisters (a Mario clone) and Blockbox (a Tetris clone) to be pirated software, how would a flash card determine that?


The DS had to be hacked to run homebrew. I'm pretty sure that, with all the brains at Nintendo, they can come up with one binary signing system for commercial games and one for approved homebrew.

#174956 - tepples - Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:49 pm

ant512 wrote:
No, you should obviously buy four DS handhelds, 4 flash carts and 4 SD cards to do 4-player DS development. What's your point?

My point is that I'd be developing for PCs and Macs instead if only they had big enough monitors.

Quote:
I wonder if synthesising audio requires lower-level access to the sound hardware, which in turn represents an attack vector for breaking into the 360's security system?

Synthesizing audio can be done in a verifiably type-safe manner; it would look much like Allegro's audio stream API. A synthesizer object implements an interface with the method void generateSamples(sample_t out[]), which fills 'out' with samples, and the system calls that method a few dozen times a second. Microsoft just neglected to implement anything like it in the XNA library. What makes it all the more ironic is that Shawn Hargreaves, the head of the Allegro project, is also a regular on the XNA board.

Quote:
Or it could just be that C++/CLI's handles are designed to interact with the managed .NET objects presented by XNA, which makes it obvious which objects need to be manually deleted (standard pointers) and which are garbage collected (.NET handles). The version of C available in Xcode to Snow Leopard users features closures ('blocks'). This isn't to encourage "exclusive development"; it's to take advantage of the automated multithreading system in the OS.

Then how do I write my game such that the same physics and behavior code compiles for both those platforms that require .NET (e.g. Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 7) and those that don't have .NET (e.g. iPod Touch, Mac OS X)? I'm not worried about the graphics and sound code; I know those will have to be rewritten from the ground up. But if the player character can or can't make a jump on platform A, I want to make sure that the character also can or can't make the same jump on platform B.
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#174966 - keldon - Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:48 pm

Oh that sucks, I broke my flash card and was hoping to get one later when I needed one (like now)! Does that mean I have no chance of buying one in the UK without having to consult some super secret underground piracy network?

#174972 - spinal_cord - Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:45 am

keldon wrote:
Oh that sucks, I broke my flash card and was hoping to get one later when I needed one (like now)! Does that mean I have no chance of buying one in the UK without having to consult some super secret underground piracy network?


I would say just get it from whatever source you would usually get it from. The worst case I would think for a single purchase would be for it to get confiscated by customs, that is, if they even bother to check what it is.
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#174974 - wintermute - Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:01 pm

Or take advantage of the stupidly cheap deals available with all the panic stricken UK flash card stores. :p
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#174986 - Quirky - Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:45 pm

tepples wrote:
Then how do I write my game such that the same physics and behavior code compiles for both those platforms that require .NET (e.g. Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 7) and those that don't have .NET (e.g. iPod Touch, Mac OS X)? I'm not worried about the graphics and sound code; I know those will have to be rewritten from the ground up. But if the player character can or can't make a jump on platform A, I want to make sure that the character also can or can't make the same jump on platform B.


The strange answer may be "use Java". http://www.xmlvm.org/overview/ Then you can have Objective-C, .NET and Android covered. Although Section 3.3.1 and Oracle vs Google may throw a couple of spanners in the works.