#30654 - sgeos - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:12 am
The way things are looking now, what are the chances we won't need flash carts for DS dev once the wireless has been cracked?
-Brendan
#30655 - willgonz - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:43 am
I think it depends. Because when you send a multiplayer game to the DS it only retains it for a short time. Perhaps they only use like 2mb of RAM to do this. Then you might have a limitation with what you can upload to it. I think the best furture flash cart would be one like XD memory. It is small. And if it could be made to pop into a little adaptor that goes where the DS game cart goes. You wouldn't be limited by how many different carts you could have. Also you would be able to use a generic XD reader/writer to copy the games to. Just drag the game image file to a drive in My Computer. I have used the X-Rom. The little writer utility is a pain to use. Plus you have to pay for another 512 megabit memory card. When you could just purchase a 64 MegaByte memory card for $30. 64Megabytes equals 512 megabits. I got suckered when I bought mine. I thought I was going to be able to put tons of 8MegaByte games on my 512 mb card which isn't 512MegaBytes.
WillGonz
#30656 - Zen Punk - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:46 am
That depends on your definition of "need." Do you really want to have to re-download boot code every time and have everything stored in RAM always? This means you have to be by your computer when you want use non-official apps/games, and you have no way of permanently storing data, and that all your code and data has to fit into 4MB. We know that DS code can access the GBA slot, so maybe you could use that for permanent storage, but then you still need to load the bootloader wirelessly...not too convenient, to say the least, and kinda defeats the purpose of, say, a PDA app, unless you want to load it, leave your DS on the whole day, and make sure you don't shut it down if you want to use the app again. This WiFi hacking is just baby steps to getting code on the DS, from there we still need other solutions for making something useful.
#30658 - DiscoStew - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:53 am
I'm guessing at the start of DS deving, we won't need more than 4MB if everything that we do can be loaded and used in that space (executable code and raw/compressed data).
However, there will come a time where 4MB isn't enough, and streaming at a speed of 2Mb/s (256KB/s) or whatever speed via WIFI/NIFI just won't cut it either. Hopefully at that time some group will have managed to make some sort of flash cart to use on the DS.
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DS - It's all about DiscoStew
#30659 - Dib - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:55 am
It can access the GBA slot for future peripheral devices, but I don't think we know enough to determine whether actual storage could be used in this manner you're suggesting.
Assuming it could, wouldn't that add latency by having to constantly access stored code from a GBA?
#30660 - tepples - Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:20 am
I'm waiting until it can boot homebrew code in DS mode other than in a WiFi/NiFi hotspot. I don't want to carry a laptop with me all the time.
But should HK pirates make a DS trojan card that loads code from an existing GBA flash cart, it just might not slow down. Remember that the throughput from a GBA cart (at 3/1 timing) to GBA VRAM is about 11 MBytes/s, compared to 1x DVD-ROM at 1.4 MBytes/s.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#30662 - Zen Punk - Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:23 am
Dib: I don't see why it would add more latency than pulling code from a hard drive, which is an inherently slower device. It would certainly be faster than pulling code off a wireless link. It's not like I'm suggesting using a flash cart for memory, just storage. You load code off the cart in one go, then run it. I don't think anyone is about to write a virtual memory manager for the DS. Or is there something I'm missing here?
#30663 - tepples - Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:32 am
| Zen Punk wrote: |
| It's not like I'm suggesting using a flash cart for memory, just storage. You load code off the cart in one go, then run it. I don't think anyone is about to write a virtual memory manager for the DS. Or is there something I'm missing here? |
Except some sort of virtual memory might be necessary to push the system. Lots of GBA games load sprite cels from ROM directly to VRAM every frame, and they mix audio using samples loaded directly from ROM. One would imagine that DS games would want to store models and samples in ROM, load them just in time, and cache them in RAM, as on the GameCube.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#30668 - mymateo - Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 am
Going off topic... that is, back to the original topic at hand... I had a thought I might share with everyone...
There's been talk about not being able to crack the DS Game Cards, that they're too well protected. But, the wireless seems to be fairly un-protected, and good progress is being made to crack it. Add in that a DS game can access the GBA slot, here's my idea: Make a GBA slot device that sends code wireless with a range of 6 inches - low power, hopefully low cost because of small range. You plug some kind of card into it that can transfer data at 11 Mbps (max speed of 802.11b wireless?) and now three things happen:
1) Memory becomes inexpensive and readily available (use SD or CF memory cards, or something of that sort)
2) No more limits, as in don't have to be by computer, and don't have to work with 2 or 4 MB (whatever the DS allows for Multiboot games)
3) No urgent need to figure out the Game Card. Yes, it must be done, but at least we will have something to play with!
So, I don't know how practical this is, and chances are it's not, as most of my ideas really aren't practical, they're just nifty.
That's my $0.02. Anyone else have similar crazy ideas?
#30686 - Abscissa - Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:26 pm
| mymateo wrote: |
| Add in that a DS game can access the GBA slot, here's my idea: Make a GBA slot device that sends code wireless with a range of 6 inches - low power, hopefully low cost because of small range. You plug some kind of card into it that can transfer data at 11 Mbps (max speed of 802.11b wireless?) |
That sounds really cool :) I'm still somewhat of a novice when it comes to hardware and wireless communications, so I don't know about the feasability any more than you, but it certainly sounds cool.
#30698 - willgonz - Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:48 pm
| Dib wrote: |
It can access the GBA slot for future peripheral devices, but I don't think we know enough to determine whether actual storage could be used in this manner you're suggesting.
Assuming it could, wouldn't that add latency by having to constantly access stored code from a GBA? |
I think it could be fast access like with a PDA.
#30699 - willgonz - Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:54 pm
While the DS data is encrypted. I think it's just a matter of time until it is decrypted. They thought DVD encryption was impossible when it first came out. Now everyone is doing it. The DS has to decrypt the data on the card to play it. So it has to be done.
#30709 - sgeos - Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:57 pm
| Zen Punk wrote: |
| That depends on your definition of "need." Do you really want to have to re-download boot code every time and have everything stored in RAM always? |
How long does it take to upload an app? (I don't own a DS yet.)
| Zen Punk wrote: |
| This means you have to be by your computer when you want use non-official apps/games, |
I'm always at a computer when I do gbadev.
| Zen Punk wrote: |
| and you have no way of permanently storing data, |
Could not data be sent back to the PC?
| Zen Punk wrote: |
| and that all your code and data has to fit into 4MB. |
I have a 64Mbit flash cart for my GBA. Admittedly, that's all ROM. At any rate, one ought to be able to fit a demo in 4MB- code and data.
| Quote: |
| We know that DS code can access the GBA slot, so maybe you could use that for permanent storage, but then you still need to load the bootloader wirelessly...not too convenient, to say the least, and kinda defeats the purpose of, say, a PDA app, unless you want to load it, leave your DS on the whole day, and make sure you don't shut it down if you want to use the app again. |
I'm not concerned with making end user programs. The goal is to make programs that can be demo-ed to future employers or publishers.
-Brendan
#30713 - tepples - Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:19 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| Zen Punk wrote: | | This means you have to be by your computer when you want use non-official apps/games, |
I'm always at a computer when I do gbadev. |
I guess I'm just different. I do GBA game engine testing at a PC, but I often do balance testing on the bus, at somebody else's house, at a video arcade while I'm waiting for the Dance Dance Revolution machine to open up, etc.
| sgeos wrote: |
| Zen Punk wrote: | | and you have no way of permanently storing data, |
Could not data be sent back to the PC? |
Not if you're out of range. Not if you can't install a PCI 802.11b card because all of the PCI slots on your PC's motherboard are full.
| sgeos wrote: |
| I'm not concerned with making end user programs. The goal is to make programs that can be demo-ed to future employers or publishers. |
How can you be sure that "future employers or publishers" will provide an 802.11b compatible computer on which they will permit you to install the hypothetical DS equivalent of mb.exe (the MBV2 linker software)?
At the moment, with the direction that the community seems headed, I'm guessing that mymateo's suggestion of "a GBA slot device that sends code wireless with a range of 6 inches", which sounds like the DS equivalent of a Xinga Super Memory Stick, would probably work best.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#30714 - sgeos - Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:47 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | I'm always at a computer when I do gbadev. |
I guess I'm just different. I do GBA game engine testing at a PC, but I often do balance testing [elsewhere] |
I have done a lot of QA testing on the bus.
| tepples wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | Could not data be sent back to the PC? |
Not if you're out of range. Not if you can't install a PCI 802.11b card because all of the PCI slots on your PC's motherboard are full. |
If I have uploaded an app wirelessly, and I am stationed at my PC, what prevents me from sending data back to the PC?
| tepples wrote: |
| How can you be sure that "future employers or publishers" will provide an 802.11b compatible computer on which they will permit you to install the hypothetical DS equivalent of mb.exe (the MBV2 linker software)? |
Call on the telephone. You may be able to provide a PC if they don't have one.
-Brendan
#30737 - tepples - Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:51 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| I have done a lot of QA testing on the bus. |
Would you be prepared to buy a laptop and carry it with you just to load DS programs on the go?
| sgeos wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | Not if you can't install a PCI 802.11b card |
If I have uploaded an app wirelessly, and I am stationed at my PC, what prevents me from sending data back to the PC? |
How can you upload an app wirelessly in the first place if your PC won't take a wireless adapter? Remember that the wireless adapter needs to be a PCI or CardBus card; routers connected to your PC via 100BASE-TX Ethernet don't work because routers assume that layer 3 is always IPv4, not Ni-Fi Layer 3.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#30755 - sgeos - Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:43 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Would you be prepared to buy a laptop and carry it with you just to load DS programs on the go? |
No. I'd do something else on the bus and do QA at home/workstation.
| sgeos wrote: |
| How can you upload an app wirelessly in the first place if your PC won't take a wireless adapter? |
I glossed over that point. Sorry about that. Buy a new PC? Not a cheap solution. Buying a DS flash cart when they become available will probably be cheaper for some parties. It looks to me like one with a spare PCI slot may be able to get by cheaper at the expense of mobility.
-Brendan