#34858 - sandymac - Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:36 am
To those building passthrough units:
What college classes would one take to learn those skills? I look at those photos and want to try to learn to figure out how to build such hardware but I'm completely ignorant on the topic.
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#34863 - Spaceface - Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:23 am
hahahaha at the pern project there's a movie.. him just staying with his DS while the kid is crying and his wife is yelling GIVE IT TO HIM NOW is the best thing EVAR
#34867 - ampz - Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:42 pm
| sandymac wrote: |
To those building passthrough units:
What college classes would one take to learn those skills? I look at those photos and want to try to learn to figure out how to build such hardware but I'm completely ignorant on the topic. |
Needed skills:
* Generic electronics.
* Digital logic.
* Computer architecture (computer memories, busses and processors in particular).
* Basic PCB etching and soldering.
* CAD (somewhat optional in this particular case).
* VHDL/Verilog.
* Machine level programming/hacking.
* Know how to use equipment such as logic analysers and oscilloscopes.
That about sums it up.
Some of these skills are "real world skills" that not all modern colleges teach. (PCB etching, soldering, equipment usage and machine level programming/hacking in particular).
I can't tell you the name of the college classes to take, since such names vary _alot_, and not all colleges teach all these skills.
#34868 - Solakin - Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:54 pm
It's been mentioned they're using FPGAs or CPLDs, which can be programmed to react in a given way, in this case to redirect certain signals to/from the DS cartridge through the connection leading to the GBA cartridge, as I understand it. Programming courses would be helpful, although if someone posts a HOW-TO, you use similar hardware, and they post the code for their logic routines, too, you're left to figure out ARM7/ARM9 programming.
Putting together the whole mess probably wouldn't require more than purchase of a few products and following some instructions, so digital circuit design or digital signal processing courses may not even factor into it, but it could help to understand what's happening or maybe allow you to design a cheaper and more compact solution for mass production. ;)
#34869 - gadget - Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:56 pm
Finally, a use for my Xport. :)
#34873 - ampz - Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:58 pm
| Solakin wrote: |
It's been mentioned they're using FPGAs or CPLDs, which can be programmed to react in a given way, in this case to redirect certain signals to/from the DS cartridge through the connection leading to the GBA cartridge, as I understand it. Programming courses would be helpful, although if someone posts a HOW-TO, you use similar hardware, and they post the code for their logic routines, too, you're left to figure out ARM7/ARM9 programming.
Putting together the whole mess probably wouldn't require more than purchase of a few products and following some instructions, so digital circuit design or digital signal processing courses may not even factor into it, but it could help to understand what's happening or maybe allow you to design a cheaper and more compact solution for mass production. ;) |
Well, I assumed he meant what skills are required to come up with something like this from scratch rather than building a copy of someone else's work from step-by-step instructions.
"digital signal processing" courses are not at all relevant for developing this kind of devices.
#34879 - Solakin - Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:35 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| "digital signal processing" courses are not at all relevant for developing this kind of devices. |
My apologies, I agree. I got confused a bit thinking about relevance to working with FPGAs. I did address the question of building one from "scratch" with experience in circuit design, but I wanted put forth the reassurance that it shouldn't require such skills to duplicate the effort in the meantime. [Edit: I wanted to emphasize the motivation of this as he doesn't say his goal is to duplicate the passthroughs, but following along with DS development breakthroughs seems to be a large interest in these communities. I spoke more in general than to him.]
I was actually writing my post in between things, so your (more on-target) post snuck in under my nose, hehe.
#34896 - PhoenixSoft - Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:12 am
That one at The Pern Project is so tiny that it isn't too far from being able to be commercialised! I wonder how long it will be before we see import shops listing a mass-produced adapter like that (although a little smaller and with a proper casing etc of course).
#34898 - tepples - Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:22 am
Anybody who commercializes it will have to generalize it so that it works with more than just the Metroid demo because people in Japan and Europe won't necessarily have the Metroid demo available.
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#34899 - phantomdjp - Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:48 am
The demo won't be in US for ever too ...
#34908 - Abscissa - Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:34 am
| sandymac wrote: |
| What college classes would one take to learn those skills? I look at those photos and want to try to learn to figure out how to build such hardware but I'm completely ignorant on the topic. |
Just learn it on your own. It's 100x quicker and 1,000x cheaper.
#34910 - Joat - Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:29 am
The titles and subject splits vary *widely* between universities, but some keywords would be:
- Digital Logic (boolean algebra, k-maps, maybe getting into gate level stuff, depending on the level the course is taught at)
- Computer Architecture/Organization
- Whatever class teaches some assembly language (it may be lumped in with Digital Logic or Comp. Org, or it may be one or more seperate classes)
- Discrete Math (boolean and set algebra, really a vital class to take if you're doing anything even remotely related to computers, even with zero hardware)
- VLSI design (this is likely to be a high level course, and only in EE depeartments), getting down to transistor level and then back up to VHDL/verilog HDLs
And of course, you should know how to program, data structures, algorithms, etc...
Granted, as others have said, you'll learn a lot more by doing rather than taking a course, but courses can help you get started, or help reinforce the knowledge and terminology. By the time I took any of these courses, I'd already covered most of the material in my own projects on my own time, but now I know the terminology and can communicate in a common manner with others (and a huge collection of overpriced, sometimes useless text books, yay for un-needed revisions!).
My advice: Go to college no matter what, although this is a no brainer (and if you're already in college, stick with it)
Order a LED kit (blinking sign or tree or heart or whatever) or something simple, to teach yourself how to solder, and try to understand how it works. Build up from there. Check out a book on computer arch. from your library or go to a local university library (if you're not in college yet). You can almost always get in, you just won't be able to actually check the books out.
phantomdjp/tepples: In the short term, nintendo have announced that Euro DSes will also come with Metroid First Hunt, but the existing passthroughs can be reprogrammed to work with any given cart (you just need to dump the header and compute the checksum over it with our modified exec address). With a little additional effort (and ~19 macrocells more in e.g. a CPLD), we can compute the CRC-16 in realtime as the data flows through, and thus make it work with all carts without having to reprogram the FPGA.
I'll be adding this into the next version of my passthrough when I get the time, unless I figure out a way to skip the passthrough completly (it certainly seems feasible, as long as the BIOS doesn't CRC any forced encryption commands).
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#35196 - sgeos - Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:49 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Just learn it on your own. It's 100x quicker and 1,000x cheaper. |
Where should I start? Can you recommend any books, etc?
-Brendan
#35201 - netdroid9 - Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:43 am
Look for keywords: Basic electronics, Digital electronics, ASM (Preferably something ARM9 and ARM7 based), stuff like that. ASM is for programing really, it can come in handy.
#35205 - ampz - Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:25 pm
For beginners in embedded programming I highly recommend the book Programming Embedded Systems in C and C ++ by Michael Barr
But I guess for pass through design purposes, book on electronics would be more important, sorry I don't know of any exceptionally good books in that area. The hardware books I have are partly in swedish, and none are very good.
#35258 - Xdox - Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:34 am
#35260 - ampz - Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:22 am
Thoose are discrete FPGA chips. Not boards.