#35003 - Series-8 - Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:08 am
Heres the concept:
A GBA style cartridge, fits into the Expansion bay on the DS. (aka GBA game bay)
It has the following properties:
-64MB DRAM type memory
-64MB FLASH type memory
-a memory controller, serial port (external on cart).
The DS has only 4 Megs of memory.
simply put, its not enough for Linux to work with in an interactive/GUI style system. Its certanly enough for embedded apps, and games but doing a multi-tasking OS is going to be neigh impossible.
Linux needs more memory and swap. For example; even surfing the web is highly impractical for such a memory constrained environment.
What the DS needs is more hardware addressable memory! lots of it.
The Boot cart will be the small NDS type, and simply be a small ROM baised 'boot-loader' for the RAM/FLASH cart which contains the real OS Kernel, and filesystems.
It will all run off the GBA slot cart. (except for initial boot-up)
What I am unshure of is:
-What is the maximum speed the GBA slot is capible of?
-How much bandwidth can it provide, given its limited IO?
Is it even practical?
Experts please, answer as you know best.
#35005 - cocole - Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:22 am
What about a SC256 then.
It has 256Mb of RAM (that's only 32MB) and has a Compact Flash slot so you can pretty much put any CF card in it (up to 1 GB or even more) ?
#35008 - TJ - Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:00 am
| Quote: |
The DS has only 4 Megs of memory.
simply put, its not enough for Linux to work with in an interactive/GUI style system |
Riiiiiiight....
#35010 - ampz - Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:22 am
| Series-8 wrote: |
The DS has only 4 Megs of memory.
simply put, its not enough for Linux to work with in an interactive/GUI style system. Its certanly enough for embedded apps, and games but doing a multi-tasking OS is going to be neigh impossible.
Linux needs more memory and swap. For example; even surfing the web is highly impractical for such a memory constrained environment. |
Well if that's the case, then linux is severly bloated. But we already knew that.
Surfing the web would be no problem with 4MB. Just because crappy browsers like IE and firefox eat 40MB does not mean a well written browser would have to.
#35014 - netdroid9 - Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:23 am
Cut all the crud out of linux and it'd probably work. Infact, screw the linux kernal, and make one with compatable APIs. It'd be be heaps better than a port of the x86 kernal.
#35031 - wileypob - Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:16 pm
Or you can use a smaller OS like Charmed Labs' gba eCos port, which has some POSIX functions through a compatibility layer.
http://gbaxport.sourceforge.net/downloads.htm
#35034 - MumblyJoe - Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:21 pm
| ampz wrote: |
Well if that's the case, then linux is severly bloated. But we already knew that.
Surfing the web would be no problem with 4MB. Just because crappy browsers like IE and firefox eat 40MB does not mean a well written browser would have to. |
Well, really, using the term "linux" in general and saying it is bloated is kinda non-specific. It can be as un-bloated as DOS if you want very little functionality. Also, firefox is made out of candy and angels and I will not tolerate any bad words about it :P
However, in the context, getting anything useful out of any operating system requires some space that might not be availiable ever on the DS. While it may be a bonus for many reason to develop on a known OS, I still think its totally not needed on the DS and just a good open source library is a better use of time.
Also, personally, I would have to have a very good reason to buy any hardware that allowed me to have more memory to run homebrew software (or linux or whatever) on the DS. I was talking a while ago about willingness to mod-chip a DS to run howebrew software and generally it was disliked, and so would be a device for extra memory. Any software that is homebrewn (a word I just invented) must be able to run on as close to the original hardware as possible for wide acceptance (and by that i mean a flash card or multiboot) or else it's just not worth it.
Anyway - as a stray opinion - I run linux on my PC, I like linux, linux is sweet, but running linux on my DS - couldn't care less.
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#35038 - Series-8 - Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:21 pm
| cocole wrote: |
| What about a SC256 then. |
that:
http://www.supercard.cn/eng/products.htm
Is not what I meant.
The cart NEEDS READ AND WRITE ACCESS to the WHOLE memory area.
Even if that means banked memory.
Shure you can run Linux with 4MB.
You can't run too many apps, or much GUI stuff with only 4MB, yeah it can be done but it would be VERY constraining.
Mind you a text console only version would run just fine, under shuch an environment.
#35044 - ampz - Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:56 pm
Yes, linux can be stripped down to less than 1MByte, but it was never really written for these kind of applications. There is little point in putting linux on the DS.
What I think we will use in the end is probably just a basic single-tasking solution. Perhaps along the lines of pogoshell, Or just a boot menu system like on GBA flash carts.
#35092 - TJ - Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:37 am
I just have to ask, are you guys 12? Or else perhaps you forget computers existed before this year?
I paid thousands of dollars for a computer half as powerful as the DS, and never had any problems surfing the net or working on it.
The DS is more than powerful enough for a GUI environment.
#35093 - ravuya - Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:40 am
| netdroid9 wrote: |
| Cut all the crud out of linux and it'd probably work. Infact, screw the linux kernal, and make one with compatable APIs. It'd be be heaps better than a port of the x86 kernal. |
Without the kernel, it isn't Linux.
I think a microkernel approach (like Mach) would be a great way to go if you were to build a new OS for the DS, but I sure as hell aren't going to be the one to port all of the GNU utilities to it.
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#35095 - Sukanu - Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:20 am
| TJ wrote: |
I just have to ask, are you guys 12? Or else perhaps you forget computers existed before this year?
I paid thousands of dollars for a computer half as powerful as the DS, and never had any problems surfing the net or working on it.
The DS is more than powerful enough for a GUI environment. |
chances are if it was half as powerfull as the ds, 2Meg of mem, then the "net" had yet to be even called arpanet(i think that is the correct term)
#35096 - TJ - Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:29 am
Well, you are officially checked off in the 12 year old column.
#35099 - netdroid9 - Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:41 am
TJ, stop being an idiot, stop insulting everyone and don't post if you don't want to be productive.
Back in those days, the internet wasn't nearly as advanced as it is now. For one thing, we have HTML 4.1, images, CSS, Javascript, and a heck of a lot of other things now.
A normal site today has CSS, a bunch of images, some javascript, and HTML 4.1 code. On top of a GUI it is very likely going to be more than 2mb. Oh, and if you haven't figured out by now, I am pissed off, but I'm not dumb enough to flame you.
#35101 - TJ - Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:09 am
"Back in those days"?
You mean 1993?
ARPANET was created in 1969. If someone claims that a home computer with less than 4 MB of RAM only existed (or that the home computer existed, period) in the days of ARPANET, then calling them a 12 year old is the least offensive thing I can think of.
#35103 - ector - Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:16 pm
Running Mozilla simply isn't going to happen. Even MiniMo requires 32MB of RAM.
Sure, someone could create a new minimalist browser to fit in the remaining 2.5 MB of RAM after a miniature linux and X are loaded, but what's the point when you could just code that minimalist browser straight to the metal and gain control over all four megs?
IMHO, linux on DS would be quite pointless other than a curiousity. Sure you could probably run IRSSI in a console but native software would do the job better.
#35105 - nix - Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:43 pm
I think way too many people are quick to jump the gun here.
No one knows for sure how Linux might run on the DS yet, for one simple reason, IT ISNT POSSIBLE YET. Speculation is just that, speculation.
If you want weird comparisons, I had an old 486 with 4 megs of ram. It ran windows 3.1, trumpet winsock (just to connect to the internet), and Netscape just fine. The DS, with some workings, can probably do it. But as I said, no one knows how it will handle the load.
Stop acting like children and know that none of you are right... yet.
#35114 - darkfader - Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:19 pm
<deleted>
Last edited by darkfader on Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
#35119 - ampz - Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:03 pm
| darkfader wrote: |
| Stop the linux hype! |
Indeed :)
#35130 - ravuya - Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:16 am
Linux is a fine operating system but it always gets my back up to see the "new console predictions" that start making up reasons for how it can/cannot be ported based on the specs of PCs at the time.
I was surfing the web, full graphical with a meg and a half of RAM in 1995.
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#35131 - Sebbo - Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:40 am
we have 386s here at my house running debian and a text-only browser. not very useful, i know, but it did the job
the DS linux crew have already been talking about how to get linux on the DS, and a stripped down kernal with only the bare minimum drivers looks to b the answer
#35132 - ravuya - Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:53 am
Why would you need anything more than the bare minimum drivers? The DS doesn't exactly have expansion slots, so it doesn't need the half-gig of PC component drivers.
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#35133 - ampz - Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:35 am
The answer to which version of linux to run is straight forward. There is no MMU on the DS, so the linux version would have to be [url=http://www.uclinux.org/]?Clinux[/url].
But even if you get uClinux running, multitasking will be a problem due to the lack of MMU. I'am guessing that X server and graphical applications will be complicated to add without the use of a MMU.
X will not be very optimal for the DS anyway, since it cannot utilize the tile capabilities of the DS properly.
Just look at the built in DS menu system and pictochat. Graphical, practical, and somewhat good looking, yet extremely memory conserving (the built in DS software is what, 32kB?). The Nintendo programmers did a good job there.
#35135 - ravuya - Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:53 am
I feel ?Clinux is the way to go here, as well. Perhaps some kind of custom UI could be developed, but the lack of X would be a turnoff. However, since the GNU toolchain isn't going to go nicely I don't think we should be porting X applications anyway.
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#35137 - Joat - Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:15 am
I feel the need to point out one very, very important detail to all of the people who remember running X or Y on an ancient machine with Z megs of memory:
PC's have *virtual memory*, and a nice relatively fast hard drive to swap to. The DS has no such tertiary store. Win3.1 would barely even boot in 4 MB of memory with zero swap, let alone a session of X and any window manager, with some browser, etc... You can get a linux kernel running in 4 MB no problem, but getting userland software that wasn't designed for real-time systems will be a big problem.
Someone suggested an option cart with extra RAM and flash, and this would be required for an even remotely useful linux install. Ampz also pointed out that the DS doesn't have an MMU (I dunno if I agree with that assertion, since CP15 could be considered one), but it certainly doesn't have the sort of MMU that linux expects (no paging hardware for virtual memory, etc..., so you have to do all that in software, fun and slow, and you need a place to stick the pages, which as I pointed out earlier, we don't have).
Before someone suggests using a GBA flash cart, since, hey, they're rewritable, they are extremely slow to erase and reprogram, and can only be erased in large blocks (it varies from card to card, but I'd imagine bank size is around 256 KB, with erase times on the order of a second)
I don't really care either way about linux on the DS, but please consider what you want it for and do the research (and stop posting suggestions about how to make X useful, thats a long way in the future, you have to make the OS itself useful *first*). I certainly won't be using it, but I did consider porting it, until I found out the $1000 prize wasn't real.
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#35140 - ravuya - Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:48 am
The machine I was surfing the web on (Mac LC I) lacked a PMMU, and as such had no virtual memory support.
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#35141 - Joat - Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:16 am
-What is the maximum speed the GBA slot is capible of?
On the GBA, 2/1 waits, i.e. 5.6 MHz async, 8.4 MHz sync.
-How much bandwidth can it provide, given its limited IO?
16 bit wide bus, so approx. 16 MB / sec bandwidth theoretical maximum.
In practice, you have some time taken away for SDRAM refresh cycles (unless you use a sufficiently fast chip that you can do it in between the DS accesses), and any time you skip addresses you get the added async penalty while the mux bus transfers the new address. Using the cart as added random access memory gives you a maximum 'direct' (as the CPU sees it) access window of 32 MB, while using it as a paging drive would give you a more reliable high bandwidth (since you're writing 4 KB seq at a time, or whatever).
These numbers are for the GBA, I dunno how the WAIT_CR reg works on the DS yet, it seems to behave differently for ARM7 and ARM9, but I haven't done any benchmarks yet. They could have kept the number of waits constant, and thus given us a faster bus, changed the number of waits (to maintain the speeds the GBA was capable of), or added new settings (in addition to doing one of the first two options).
-Is it even practical?
Sure you can make a cart with SDRAM, a refresh controller, and an interface circuit. It's going to cost a lot, and needs to be standardized (interface specs) unless you want people to write a driver for each such 'drive'. You can drive the price down by making a lot, but where is the market? The only reason GBA flash carts are so cheap is the massive quantities they're sold in (thanks to piracy, sadly). This has a side effect of letting homebrewers get cheap hardware, but something like this, with no real potential benefit to piracy, isn't going to get picked up and mass-produced by them.
Homebrewers are realistically a very tiny market.
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#35143 - TJ - Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:09 am
There is a perfectly functional port of Linux to the GP32 handheld, which is also an ARM9, and has no virtual memory.
#35146 - ampz - Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:27 am
| Joat wrote: |
| PC's have *virtual memory*, and a nice relatively fast hard drive to swap to. The DS has no such tertiary store. Win3.1 would barely even boot in 4 MB of memory with zero swap, let alone a session of X and any window manager, with some browser, etc... You can get a linux kernel running in 4 MB no problem, but getting userland software that wasn't designed for real-time systems will be a big problem. |
Oh, but on a system with mechanical storage, any data and code must be loaded to RAM before it can be executed.
The GBA/DS is quite different, since code and data can be accessed directly from the GBA cart interface. Why load up the applications in RAM?
| Joat wrote: |
| Someone suggested an option cart with extra RAM and flash, and this would be required for an even remotely useful linux install. Ampz also pointed out that the DS doesn't have an MMU (I dunno if I agree with that assertion, since CP15 could be considered one), but it certainly doesn't have the sort of MMU that linux expects (no paging hardware for virtual memory, etc..., so you have to do all that in software, fun and slow |
Do what in software? In a MMU-less system you don't swap memory pages at all (since you can't), so there is in fact actually a (slight) speed gain.
But linux would have very limited usefulness on the DS.
#35148 - netdroid9 - Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:10 am
I think very limited is an understatement. But once linux is ported to something, you know that pretty much everything you need is documented.
#35149 - Sebbo - Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:59 am
if u need "hard drive space" as such, as in memory u can load code from and write back to quickly i have an idea that may or maynot work...
i suggested this to the DSLinux group a couple of days ago, but no reply yet, so mayb someone here might give it a try
would it be possible to put a PCB in the casing of a DS card or otherwise which connects to a SD or other card? SD cards and writers are much easier to get than gba flash cards and entire code up to the size of the SD card could be loaded straight to the DS instead of redirecting to the GBA slot
was just thinking about my gba movie player and how it uses CF cards and thought a similar idea would work well
http://www.sdcard.org/sdio/Simplified%20Physical%20Layer%20Specification.PDF is a nice piece of documentation and gives some specifics about SD cards, but no pin layouts, just that there is a clock, command, 4xdata and 3xpower lines
#35152 - netdroid9 - Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:41 am
It's not as much HD space (You can fit Gibibytes of data on a DS cart if you had to (I think)), but the fact that there isn't much ram. Like I said earlier, don't be an idiot and say stuff like 'L1INUX IS UBER1337!!!!1!!!!1!!111', just make a different OS designed for the DS with compatable APIs.
In my opinion: Screw linux when it comes to something drastically different to a normal PC.
#35153 - Vince - Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:43 am
Hello,
Why would everyone want to run Linux? I know it's cool but as some pointed out, there are other OSes more suited to that kind of memory constricted environment; take eCos for instance.
Of course, the hype about Linux is that there are tons of already running apps ...
Just my 2 cents,
Vince
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#35155 - Sebbo - Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:27 am
is it open source tho? thats the main reason y linux keeps getting chosen to put on the xbox, gc etc
#35157 - nix - Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:55 pm
I guess people have reasons for getting Linux to run on everything. It is open-source, so anyone who has the knowledge of the hardware and software (and experience, one would hope) and a lot of spare time can modify the Linux kernel to run on whatever. iPod Linux? Go figure. People want to see what they can do. I found xbox-linux to be more of a stab at Microsoft than it was to just have a functional Linux distribution running on what is basically a PC. Some people are just Linux fanatics who want to be able to use Linux wherever the hell they are in the world.
I suppose another reason is that Linux somehow became the "cool" thing to run. I understand why, sure, but not on everything. Linux is a wonderful desktop OS (I generally don't use it, but I've NEVER had a problem running it), and is very well suited for server applications. I just don't get why anyone would want a highly portable (and I mean portable as in you can take it anywhere ;) Linux distribution. I bought my DS for a few reasons. One, I love handheld gaming systems. Two, I really liked the whole wireless gaming thing (and the possible tunneling applications). Finally, three, I want to get into development (I started working on GBA stuff, but work got in the way, and just never really felt like going anywhere with it). I didn't buy my DS so that I could run Linux on it. I don't feel like a geek sitting on the bus/train playing my DS, but I certainly would if I hauled it out to mess around with Linux.
If I want portable Linux, I'll get a laptop. Otherwise, leave my gaming handheld be.
I think I strayed a bit off topic. My point was supposed to be that Linux is the "cool" thing, and people seem to think if they can run Linux on their wristwatch (no wait, I didn't say that, don't try... please?) it makes them "1337." And because Linux is open-source, some people want to take that source code and try and port it to systems it was NEVER intended to be run on (well, maybe not NEVER, but uh, you get the idea).
#35158 - Solakin - Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:34 pm
Too late, the wristwatch has already been corrupted ~.~
#35170 - ravuya - Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:49 pm
| nix wrote: |
| I think I strayed a bit off topic. My point was supposed to be that Linux is the "cool" thing, and people seem to think if they can run Linux on their wristwatch (no wait, I didn't say that, don't try... please?) it makes them "1337." And because Linux is open-source, some people want to take that source code and try and port it to systems it was NEVER intended to be run on (well, maybe not NEVER, but uh, you get the idea). |
My point with Linux is it then lets you take complete control of the machine you're running it on. iPod Linux adds photo browsing, extra games, extra format support, all stuff Apple doesn't officially condone.
It's really about choice, and anyone who just wants to be a Linux fanboy and go "OMFGWTF I have Linux on my jockstrap" can, but primarily I feel it's about getting the most use out of your machine.
I personally think it'd be nice to have a sub-$300 portable machine with a touch screen and Wifi capabilities.
By the way, for the people who say this is a waste of time and Linux is for nerds: Have you forgotten what this board is for?
As for reinventing the wheel: Why? ?Clinux has done most of the hard work of running Linux on an ARM, there's still device drivers but with work and effort it can get done.
Don't confuse this with "I want Linux on my jockstrap". The worst Linux fanboyism here appears to be coming from people who use primarily Windows at home anyway.
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#35176 - TJ - Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:01 pm
Porting Linux to the DS would allow you for instance to be able to remotely log into servers with SSH, which is something that would previously be impossible to do for $150.
Or network troubleshooting and security auditing.
Porting Linux to various devices always as a practical upside, but one which the average gamer, or average computer user for that matter, generally can't understand.
#35182 - norvan - Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:07 am
nothing too big. linux has already been ported onto the GBA. Now if i could just find the link....
#35188 - Series-8 - Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:43 am
| Joat wrote: |
-
What is the maximum speed the GBA slot is capible of?
On the GBA, 2/1 waits, i.e. 5.6 MHz async, 8.4 MHz sync.
-How much bandwidth can it provide, given its limited IO?
16 bit wide bus, so approx. 16 MB / sec bandwidth theoretical maximum.
In practice, you have some time taken away for SDRAM refresh cycles (unless you use a sufficiently fast chip that you can do it in between the DS accesses), and any time you skip addresses you get the added async penalty while the mux bus transfers the new address. Using the cart as added random access memory gives you a maximum 'direct' (as the CPU sees it) access window of 32 MB, while using it as a paging drive would give you a more reliable high bandwidth (since you're writing 4 KB seq at a time, or whatever).
These numbers are for the GBA, I dunno how the WAIT_CR reg works on the DS yet, it seems to behave differently for ARM7 and ARM9, but I haven't done any benchmarks yet. They could have kept the number of waits constant, and thus given us a faster bus, changed the number of waits (to maintain the speeds the GBA was capable of), or added new settings (in addition to doing one of the first two options).
-Is it even practical?
Sure you can make a cart with SDRAM, a refresh controller, and an interface circuit. It's going to cost a lot, and needs to be standardized (interface specs) unless you want people to write a driver for each such 'drive'. You can drive the price down by making a lot, but where is the market? The only reason GBA flash carts are so cheap is the massive quantities they're sold in (thanks to piracy, sadly). This has a side effect of letting homebrewers get cheap hardware, but something like this, with no real potential benefit to piracy, isn't going to get picked up and mass-produced by them.
Homebrewers are realistically a very tiny market. |
Thanks Joat!
Thank goodness there are some real smart technical people here.
As to the rest of you... read a good computer hardware book.
(becuase you knowledge is laughbly lacking)
#35190 - Series-8 - Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:57 am
Also who needs a GUI?
portable WiFi... nearly fits in your pocket.
a console only version of Linux(well ?CLinux + fake MMU) can do this:
Wireless Network scanner. Look for open APs (for security perposes, one way or the other...)
As said above SSH, Telnet, Rcon, ect.
Email, text-MUDs, Roguelikes, IRC/ICQ/AIM Chat...
Compiling REALLY short programs.
Mostly to show how L337 you are to your friends. ;)
#35192 - Series-8 - Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:32 am
Ahh jeez... NM everyone.
That Xport looks like it could sorta fit the task...
Also looks like it has come in handy when working with the DS... I wonder what Nintendo will do to charmedlabs... (gulp)
#35194 - nix - Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:46 am
Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be neat to run Linux on the DS. I am more concerned about functionality. I'd hate to have to use an on-screen keyboard to do anything, which is probably how it'll work. I suppose that is one application the touch-screen would serve well. Projects like xbox-linux were horrid unless you went out of the way to hack up your own keyboard (which wasnt hard, but still), because trying to use the on-screen keyboard was just horrible having to move over each letter.
I think the only reason I pointed out anything about the iPod Linux thing was mostly because I really don't see it having any point, other than "look at what we did." Sure, you can play some games (which would probably work better on a handheld gaming console, but thats besides the point), and a picture browser. Why would I want to look at greyscale pictures on my iPod? I'd rather use a PDA.
I'll be honest, it would be neat to see PDA-like functions on the DS. A Linux project would probably make that possible.
#35204 - MumblyJoe - Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:38 am
| Series-8 wrote: |
Thank goodness there are some real smart technical people here.
As to the rest of you... read a good computer hardware book.
(becuase you knowledge is laughbly lacking) |
Yeha, thank goodness you dont have to figure out your own problems...
Seriously, even if people give you a stupid answers, don't get all high and mighty like you already knew the answer to the question you asked and everyone else is fools for not bieng able to answer it.
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#35207 - netdroid9 - Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:09 pm
You mean this stack of books I just finished? Or the ones I finished a week ago?
At least nobody has corrpted sunglasses...
#35229 - josath - Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:56 pm
| nix wrote: |
I think the only reason I pointed out anything about the iPod Linux thing was mostly because I really don't see it having any point, other than "look at what we did." |
not to go off topic (actually, yeah, this is off topic), but I always thought one of the important reasons was to be able to play other music formats (flac, ogg, etc).
#35235 - ampz - Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:02 pm
Don't need linux in order to do that...
#35238 - josath - Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:53 pm
you can play ogg vorbis/flac files on standard ipod firmware? or there is another hacked one somewhere that does this?
#35253 - ravuya - Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:40 am
| josath wrote: |
| you can play ogg vorbis/flac files on standard ipod firmware? or there is another hacked one somewhere that does this? |
You cannot, although according to scuttlebutt Ogg support is coming to iTunes in the future. And I know of no other cracked BIOSes.
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#35256 - josath - Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:29 am
iTunes can already play ogg if you install the right things. iTunes is just the desktop software though.
#35259 - ampz - Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:20 am
| josath wrote: |
| you can play ogg vorbis/flac files on standard ipod firmware? or there is another hacked one somewhere that does this? |
No, but why would you need a big fat operating system just to play a few oggs??
Believe it or not, but ogg decoders run just fine without linux.
#35265 - yboily - Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:27 am
I think the more interesting question is how the interface would be used under an operating system.
Obviously the touch pad would be a combination pointing system and text input device, but there are also the other possibilities. I am particularly interested in the possibilities of using custom software on the DS to perform some wireless scanning.
Does anyone know if the 802.11 chipset in the DS support RFMon mode?
I also like the idea of having a handheld SSH client, although all things considered, there are better solutions available.
#35268 - Boeboe - Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:54 am
do released games run on linux? NO
why would you need an extra OS (mass waste of resources) just to run a custom made webbrowser, ssh client, vnc, whatever?
#35269 - netdroid9 - Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:58 am
The only way for the linux kernal to run released games and homebrew games would for there to be either A) An emulation layer or B) A hack in the kernal.
#35270 - Sebbo - Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:10 am
a way to boot into DS, GBA or Download play modes from linux would b nice
#35271 - Boeboe - Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:22 am
how would that be nice?? So you'd boot up your DS, boot your precious linux from the bootmenu, THEN boot your favorite game from your linux bootscreen (assuming that is possible)
#35272 - Sebbo - Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:25 am
assuming i wanted to do something in linux first b4 playing a game.
i'm not a huge linux fanboy like u may think, i still run windows on my PC, but i like the idea of having more control of my DS, and running homebrew apps will b easier later on too
#35275 - Scha - Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:33 pm
| Sebbo wrote: |
| ...and running homebrew apps will b easier later on too |
how? I dont see how it will be easier. If your able to get linux started on the DS, you should be able to get anything else started too...
Scha :D
#35280 - nix - Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:38 pm
I have a feeling that if Linux ever does get running on the DS, it would probably be selected from the DS boot screen, and then go from there. There is obviously no way to internally store Linux on the DS (due to the lack of a storage device), so where will it go? I think a fair guess would be an external storage device (a cart somewhere, either in the GBA slot or on a DS-style card if that ever happens). I think that's a fair guess on how it would work. I obviously don't know for sure, and as it stands, all I, or anyone else for that matter, can do right now, guess.
#35282 - sandymac - Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:53 pm
I'm sorry, but the only reason I can see to run linux on the DS is to:
a) say you did.
b) make it possible to port the Open Zaurus PDA stuff
Once homebrew roms can be run on the DS and the 802.11 unit has been figured out I think better non-games efforts would be a direct port of VNC, SSH, and very basic webserver (just to generate buzz on slashdot).
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#35287 - octopusfluff - Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:00 pm
| sandymac wrote: |
Once homebrew roms can be run on the DS and the 802.11 unit has been figured out I think better non-games efforts would be a direct port of VNC, SSH, and very basic webserver (just to generate buzz on slashdot). |
The webserver would take maybe, what, an hour? Two? Once you get a TCP/IP stack going, a simple webserver is typically about 50 lines of code in most languages, less if you don't care about sanity checking. =>
'Course, you'd be lacking some of the spiffier features of Apache, but hey, it's not like you've got a lot of space for files or any interesting sources of input for it to act on.
#35304 - ampz - Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:47 pm
| sandymac wrote: |
| Once homebrew roms can be run on the DS and the 802.11 unit has been figured out I think better non-games efforts would be a direct port of VNC, SSH, and very basic webserver (just to generate buzz on slashdot). |
A basic but graphical web browser would be very nice.
As well as a IRC client for wireless #gbadev chatting.
E-mail and ICQ clients would be nice.. Especially if it is possible to make the DS wake up from deep sleep mode whenever a E-mail or ICQ message arrives.
#41788 - Fox5 - Sun May 01, 2005 10:09 pm
| TJ wrote: |
| Quote: |
The DS has only 4 Megs of memory.
simply put, its not enough for Linux to work with in an interactive/GUI style system |
Riiiiiiight.... |
I don't know if you could port any Linux distro to the DS, but certainly a custom OS could be done on the DS with multitasking and a GUI.(hey, Windows 3.1 probably didn't have much more memory to work with, and old PDAs didn't have more to work with either, current cell phone still don't, and the gba carts are fairly speedy so that could help with the lack of memory a bit, even though they're not writable but if streaming works for GTA, it can work for an OS)
Browsing the web could certainly be a problem though, when websites and even pictures on websites can exceed 4MB.
#41828 - josath - Mon May 02, 2005 7:01 am
The EZ Flash 3 includes 128MBit (16MByte) of writable RAM on it. I know very few people have it, so if you required it, it wouldn't help many people, but maybe make it optional to give your apps more memory.
As far as web browsing, perhaps having a proxy server of some sort that downsampled images, and stripped javascript & css would make a web browser more doable.
#42412 - Merri - Wed May 11, 2005 1:36 am
| Fox5 wrote: |
| TJ wrote: | | Quote: | The DS has only 4 Megs of memory.
simply put, its not enough for Linux to work with in an interactive/GUI style system |
Riiiiiiight.... |
I don't know if you could port any Linux distro to the DS, but certainly a custom OS could be done on the DS with multitasking and a GUI.(hey, Windows 3.1 probably didn't have much more memory to work with, and old PDAs didn't have more to work with either, current cell phone still don't, and the gba carts are fairly speedy so that could help with the lack of memory a bit, even though they're not writable but if streaming works for GTA, it can work for an OS)
Browsing the web could certainly be a problem though, when websites and even pictures on websites can exceed 4MB. |
Even Commodore 64 had GEOS: a mouse driven Windows-like (or Mac-like, whichever way you wish to look at it) desktop environment - running with the massive memory amount of 64 kB! Afaik it could run a few programs simultaneously. I never actually tried it, just what I remember out of screenshots. It might have been ran out of cartridge with something extra, but certainly not 4MB.
DS displays total of only 256 x 384 pixels (C64: 320 x 200). Thus you don't need as much memory for the display as you need on desktop, so you have to consider that when doing comparison.
As for the browser, Opera might work in DS if Linux ran on it. Unfortunatenaly Opera isn't very optimized for Linux, it is much faster on Windows environment. WAP browser might work on DS the best.
But overall, having Linux running on DS has only COOL! factory in it. I don't know or can't think of any real use for it.
#42414 - Fox5 - Wed May 11, 2005 1:59 am
I would love to have this programs on the DS:
A word processor, where I can use the touchpad to write.
Umm....an OGG/MP3 player!
Wow, what else do I use an OS for? Well, a web browser(even for just local files) would be good, and how about a gba emulator/pass through? And an art program!
#42422 - tepples - Wed May 11, 2005 4:04 am
| Fox5 wrote: |
I would love to have this programs on the DS:
A word processor, where I can use the touchpad to write. |
Handwriting recognition is a Hard Problem, unless you want to use an on-screen keyboard.
| Quote: |
| Umm....an OGG/MP3 player! |
Are you not satisfied with the sound quality in GSM Player?
| Quote: |
| Wow, what else do I use an OS for? Well, a web browser(even for just local files) would be good, and how about a gba emulator/pass through? |
Should PogoShell get ported, you've just described it. It'd use the DS's native GBA mode to run GBA programs.
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#42424 - Fox5 - Wed May 11, 2005 4:14 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Fox5 wrote: | I would love to have this programs on the DS:
A word processor, where I can use the touchpad to write. |
Handwriting recognition is a Hard Problem, unless you want to use an on-screen keyboard.
| Quote: | | Umm....an OGG/MP3 player! |
Are you not satisfied with the sound quality in GSM Player?
| Quote: | | Wow, what else do I use an OS for? Well, a web browser(even for just local files) would be good, and how about a gba emulator/pass through? |
Should PogoShell get ported, you've just described it. It'd use the DS's native GBA mode to run GBA programs. |
Wel, how about just a program that can store handwriten notes? Hmm, maybe a voice recorder as well with the microphone, assuming the microphone is up to that task.(probably not)
And I never knew about GSM player, I've been using Music Player Advance, which I believe caps off at like 12000hz.
Hmm, pogoshell would be good, but doesn't the OS disappear whenever anything is run? Multitasking would be nice, even if it could only multi task simple things.(like say view a picture and a text file at the same time)
#42427 - tepples - Wed May 11, 2005 6:11 am
| Fox5 wrote: |
| Wel, how about just a program that can store handwriten notes? Hmm, maybe a voice recorder as well with the microphone, assuming the microphone is up to that task.(probably not) |
Unlike the Famicom microphone, which was just a level detector, the Nintendo DS microphone is the real deal. There's an easter egg in Feel The Magic that demonstrates it: hold Y+Down at the title screen to record, and hold X+Down to play.
| Quote: |
| And I never knew about GSM player, I've been using Music Player Advance, which I believe caps off at like 12000hz. |
GSM Player works with 18 kHz mono samples, meaning that it reproduces frequencies up to 9 kHz.
| Quote: |
| Multitasking would be nice, even if it could only multi task simple things.(like say view a picture and a text file at the same time) |
You mean in separate windows (e.g. on the two screens, or overlapping), or as part of the same document? An XHTML-Basic renderer with PNG and JPEG decoders could handle the latter.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#42481 - Fox5 - Wed May 11, 2005 10:25 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Fox5 wrote: | | Wel, how about just a program that can store handwriten notes? Hmm, maybe a voice recorder as well with the microphone, assuming the microphone is up to that task.(probably not) |
Unlike the Famicom microphone, which was just a level detector, the Nintendo DS microphone is the real deal. There's an easter egg in Feel The Magic that demonstrates it: hold Y+Down at the title screen to record, and hold X+Down to play.
| Quote: | | And I never knew about GSM player, I've been using Music Player Advance, which I believe caps off at like 12000hz. |
GSM Player works with 18 kHz mono samples, meaning that it reproduces frequencies up to 9 kHz.
| Quote: | | Multitasking would be nice, even if it could only multi task simple things.(like say view a picture and a text file at the same time) |
You mean in separate windows (e.g. on the two screens, or overlapping), or as part of the same document? An XHTML-Basic renderer with PNG and JPEG decoders could handle the latter. |
I mean seperate.
#42743 - pixxel - Sat May 14, 2005 2:50 pm
dont get me wrong, i LOVE modding my consoles, and have even published some articles on some seriously hardcore modding (im the first documented person to pc-casify and xbox - and all my main consoles - xbox, gamecube and dreamcast are linuxed up)...but linux...on a DS?
get real! even on the xbox and DS, 3d accelerated video isnt supported etc etc, so the cpu is almost always doing the work - and browsing even on the xbox, being at near pc specs is a dog. sure it works properly, but i wouldnt wanna use it as a main system...
and the argument about it being the only option for sub $150 SSH. well, by the time uve got the stuff to flash it, i doubt itll still be $150...and theres another option...
smartphones. in the UK u can get a c500 for litterely pennies - or free on an upgrade on a contract. i Myself have a M2000 (aka xdaIIs aka PDA2k) and that has wifi/bt/gprs etc, and coz its windows CE, theres a mountain of freeware/shareware apps.its a better resolution than the DS, a hella lot more power (400mhz, 128meg ram, ive got a 1gig SD in the top) and its got a slide out keyboard. yeh, sure, dslinux is great for one upmanship, be seriously, if your gonna try and justify doing it for leggit reasons, get real... you could have yourself a pda with the ability to use VNC, remote desktop, logme in etc...with out much more cost, and a lot less fecking around.
also, has ANYONE considered CE for the DS? i know thats not cool, but its arm from the ground up, its mostly open (MS Shared source) - its designed for touch screen etc etc - its a MUCH more sensible choice - and hell, its already running on systems that make the DS look like powerhouses, its gotta be worth a shot.
#42748 - Kyoufu Kawa - Sat May 14, 2005 4:07 pm
I vote custom OS.
And would be happy to do the visual design.
#42845 - superjudge - Sun May 15, 2005 4:56 pm
I vote modify a version of familiar. It already works on PDAs, which aren't much different than the GBA. The hardware on the DS is four times more powerful than that.
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#42849 - Darkwind_776 - Sun May 15, 2005 5:33 pm
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: |
I vote custom OS.
And would be happy to do the visual design. |
Well, it's a good idea that they're starting with linux. The fact that it's simple and that it can easily be programmed makes it a choice canidate for the first steps into an OS on the DS.
I would love it if The DS had it's own OS, but you need to take baby steps.
(and i'm guessing that I'm gonna be tottaly wrong with what they're thinking and I'm going to get chewed out xP )
#42850 - Kyoufu Kawa - Sun May 15, 2005 5:41 pm
Boom boom boom!
Mockup image of a possible webbrowser thingy, made in a couple minutes of MS-Paint (gasp) just because I was bored and offered to do the visuals.
This would be how it's NOT done.
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
#42884 - Darkwind_776 - Mon May 16, 2005 3:14 am
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: |
Boom boom boom!
Mockup image of a possible webbrowser thingy, made in a couple minutes of MS-Paint (gasp) just because I was bored and offered to do the visuals.
This would be how it's NOT done.
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it] |
Yeah....
That IS a bad idea for a web browser
it's Fugly
#42886 - Fox5 - Mon May 16, 2005 3:29 am
| Darkwind_776 wrote: |
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: | Boom boom boom!
Mockup image of a possible webbrowser thingy, made in a couple minutes of MS-Paint (gasp) just because I was bored and offered to do the visuals.
This would be how it's NOT done.
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it] |
Yeah....
That IS a bad idea for a web browser
it's Fugly |
Isn't that pictochat?
#42895 - Sebbo - Mon May 16, 2005 10:07 am
yeah, its modified pictochat
my idea would be kinda similar, keyboard at the bottom, nav and address bar at the top and the space in between can be a "touch pad" for a cursor on the top screen where the web content is displayed. d-pad/a,b,x,y does the scrolling, L is a quick stop, R is a quick refresh. and select brings up a list of the tabs you have open ^_^ ok, maybe later
#42896 - Kyoufu Kawa - Mon May 16, 2005 11:52 am
| Sebbo wrote: |
yeah, its modified pictochat
my idea would be kinda similar, keyboard at the bottom, nav and address bar at the top and the space in between can be a "touch pad" for a cursor on the top screen where the web content is displayed. d-pad/a,b,x,y does the scrolling, L is a quick stop, R is a quick refresh. and select brings up a list of the tabs you have open ^_^ ok, maybe later |
Yeah, that'd be moooooch batter.
I never quite expected people to like my little mockup... guess I was right.
#42897 - superjudge - Mon May 16, 2005 12:15 pm
You would need a hiding on-screen keyboard, to give you more room. OS 6 style, you tap a little button in the lower right and it slides up on the screen, then it disappears after you hit enter.
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#42898 - Kyoufu Kawa - Mon May 16, 2005 12:27 pm
| superjudge wrote: |
| You would need a hiding on-screen keyboard, to give you more room. OS 6 style, you tap a little button in the lower right and it slides up on the screen, then it disappears after you hit enter. |
Notice how I replaced the Recall button (below the OK button FKA "Send") with an arrow facing left. That's your Begone button.
#42901 - headspin - Mon May 16, 2005 3:04 pm
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: |
Boom boom boom!
Mockup image of a possible webbrowser thingy, made in a couple minutes of MS-Paint (gasp) just because I was bored and offered to do the visuals.
This would be how it's NOT done.
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it] |
I think it looks good. Although it's obviously a mod of my Pictochat rip.
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#42908 - Kyoufu Kawa - Mon May 16, 2005 5:01 pm
| headspin wrote: |
| I think it looks good. Although it's obviously a mod of my Pictochat rip. |
I knew I forgot something... to credit Headspin! My bad.
#42913 - headspin - Mon May 16, 2005 5:48 pm
No worries :) That's what it was made for. Keep up the good work!
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![[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]](http://helmetedrodent.kickassgamers.com/browsermockup.png){kind=link}