#42215 - gl0b - Sun May 08, 2005 2:07 am
I just read this review and i wonder if....
http://www.64scener.com/ds/neoflash.htm
Am i wrong?Is it magic? Can we use a XG2 flash + passme/wifime instead of a neoflash kit for booting dS backups? Soon dS backup support on other gba flash cards?
#42220 - Proteanruler - Sun May 08, 2005 2:48 am
exactly my thoughts ;). I have a neoflash on the way to me this Monday. I thought I was the only one thinking this. Thing is though - you only save 1/2 the price of the neoflash when buying XG cart and that's assuming you have a passme already - so after a point (once you've included import tax of part etc, cost of passme and cart)... is it worth it? Anyway - would be nice to recycle the passmes I have :) and help out my mates!
Having read that article all my suspicions seem to have been verified. Anyone know of a seller of XG2 turbo 512 carts? Damn that's cheeky of them, but then again most passme makers have stopped making them. So I suppose it's the logical progression. What I don't understand is why all this patching of roms to use save area of actual NDS cart a) can't be done for homebrew b) (not endorsing piracy) can't be used with other carts - why does it have to be an XG cart?? Or am I being stupid
Last edited by Proteanruler on Sun May 08, 2005 3:07 am; edited 3 times in total
#42221 - FourScience - Sun May 08, 2005 3:02 am
From all the info I've seen, you're right. The NeoFlash kits are just XG2's and PassMe's that have been repackaged and rebranded (and potentially overpriced). The review says that this is the only way to get a PassMe-type device now, and this is partially true as natrium42 is not ordering any more materials, Kraln's site is down (or link changed), and Lynx is out of stock. Lynx ordered another 100 sets of parts though, so that's why I say this detail is not entirely true.
I think the NeoFlash team has been smart about their marketting efforts, i.e., giving away several dozen kits to developers, and now starting a contest to give away more. I don't care if they have rebranded existing hardware, this is what you see in any given industry. It's also standard marketting practice to cleverly make it seem like you have something new and unique by using a catchy new term for the same old tech: "Magic Key Technology Support".
I personally prefer that the new product makes it clear what it really is, without any obscurities to cause misconceptions. Like when Mazda says the Mazda3 uses the same suspension as the Ford Focus and the same frame as the Volvo S40. No one is required to present the facts like this though. Sometimes it's better to leave room for mystery (from the retailer's POV). A good consumer would rather have all the info up-front though and know what the tech really is.
| Quote: |
| Can we use a XG2 flash + passme/wifime instead of a neoflash kit for booting dS backups? |
Presently, is there any way to make a DS backup? Is a DS backup to be considered a backup of a) a commercial ROM, b) a homebrew ROM, or c) something else like the DS firmware? From the way I interpret things, there are no true DS backups (of commercial ROMs), so no kit out there can boot this kind of backup.
One last thought... if there really was something special and unique about the NeoFlash kit, I think they would have said more about what this new feature is. There's very little reason to keep a marketable feature secret, when boasting about it would dispel doubts and boost sales. You can say you have feature X without divulging any trade secrets. Thus I personally think that there's no new features in the NeoFlash, except that you have your PassMe and GBA flash cart all in one package, with commercial support available for both. This was inevitable and all-in-all a good thing.
Last edited by FourScience on Sun May 08, 2005 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total
#42222 - tepples - Sun May 08, 2005 3:07 am
| FourScience wrote: |
| From the way I interpret things, there are no true DS backups (of commercial ROMs), so no kit out there can boot this kind of backup. |
Then what's that Metroid dump floating around? Anyway, should dumps of commercial Nintendo DS games surface, it'd probably be straightforward to patch them to run with PassMe.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#42223 - gl0b - Sun May 08, 2005 3:07 am
I was talking about the 2 GS dumps, not real backups (if i own mario64&metroid demo, i can legaly use those dumps right?). Homebrew roms/ firmware patch roms can be used with most linkers.
_________________
----!-----
Next generation DS
#42224 - FourScience - Sun May 08, 2005 3:10 am
| gl0b wrote: |
| I was talking about the 2 GS dumps, not real backups (if i own mario64&metroid demo, i can legaly use those dumps right?). Homebrew roms/ firmware patch roms can be used with most linkers. |
Ahah. From tepples' input and this possibility, I can see how DS backups are already possible and will likely be seen more.
#42227 - gl0b - Sun May 08, 2005 3:18 am
More info >>> http://www.64scener.com/ 3may news
But how it's possible to make those dumps work on XG2/neoFlash +passme without any kind of patch or those released dumps are patched only for neoflash... XG team occults something...
I really hope this "secret" will make it possible with other linkers :D
_________________
----!-----
Next generation DS
#42228 - Proteanruler - Sun May 08, 2005 3:24 am
has anyone actually tried to run these things on a normal passme + alternative cart??
I think the problem lies in most carts not being able to load straight .nds files. So rather than stuff being written specificallyh for Neoflash/XG - am I correct in thinking this is the only cart/software that can do this?? Prob just a case of other updating their stuff.
I am quite interested in seeing Neoflash exposed and encouraging other carts (i.e. F2a ultra - my favourite) to not get sidelined cos of XG's/neoflashe's (even though I have one on the way!). F2A ultra is a beautiful cart - I am sad to have to switch but would sell this XS/"neoflash" cart in a flash if I could use my F2A ultra instead of this xg for straight .nds files.
#42250 - d3tr0it - Sun May 08, 2005 1:27 pm
A guess would be that they just append a ndsloader infront of the ndsfile.
As you can see in their NeoFlash software they use NDSLoader.dll, which prolly just appends the loader.
But as I really dont have a clue I'll be quiet now =)
#42264 - tepples - Sun May 08, 2005 6:30 pm
| d3tr0it wrote: |
| A guess would be that they just append a ndsloader infront of the ndsfile. |
They'd also have to patch the ROM's file system driver to load assets from the GBA ROM rather than from the DS card, but given the ease of automatic SRAM-patching on GBA and BBA-patching on GameCube, that might be straightforward.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#42279 - elbee - Sun May 08, 2005 10:47 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| d3tr0it wrote: | | A guess would be that they just append a ndsloader infront of the ndsfile. |
They'd also have to patch the ROM's file system driver to load assets from the GBA ROM rather than from the DS card, but given the ease of automatic SRAM-patching on GBA and BBA-patching on GameCube, that might be straightforward. |
In a neoflash review a guy wrote he just added the allready sram-patched GS rom in the menu as an (normal) nds file. Maybe this indicates the patching is done offline and is not done on flashing or online. And if this is true, it could work on other flash cards as well.
What i don't get is why the XG2 flash 256Mb doesn't work with the GS nds file (problem in the linkersoftware or the flashcard?), and what is the difference in extra flash features between XG2-512Mb, XG2-256Mb, and other flashcards.
Some questions could be answered with some simple reverse-engineering, but a XG2 flashcard or Neo flashcard is needed.
#42281 - assassda - Sun May 08, 2005 11:23 pm
they say it plays "nds images" can it play commercial games or not?
#42282 - darkfader - Sun May 08, 2005 11:24 pm
but it seems like those files are encrypted. for me, it would be a waste of time to look at it.
#42296 - OrR - Mon May 09, 2005 3:25 am
| assassda wrote: |
| they say it plays "nds images" can it play commercial games or not? |
Sure, it does.
#42305 - elbee - Mon May 09, 2005 9:10 am
| darkfader wrote: |
| but it seems like those files are encrypted. for me, it would be a waste of time to look at it. |
You mean the GS patched nds file is encrypted? I am (not yet) familiar with nds loaders and nds format(s).
But wouldn't it be possible to write a GS nds file to a XG2 or neoflash card using the neoflash writer (with the ndsloader.dll), and read it back somehow from the card and find out what ndsloader.dll did to the image on the card in order the let it run on the DS? After that you can try the same with a homebrew nds file, read it back, and compare it with the results of the GS nds readback.
Just some thoughts .....
#42306 - Proteanruler - Mon May 09, 2005 12:21 pm
what about also comparing the GS Nds with an original DarkFader nds - disassemble the 2 and see whether it is done before hand or what. My 2 cents.
#42310 - josath - Mon May 09, 2005 5:51 pm
homebrew .nds files don't boot on the DS.
the GS versions have a gba header, so it looks like they have some kind of loader. Also the rest of the rom is different (maybe it's a different region), but either way, it's not like a minor change here and there. I'm fairly sure the neoflash software is not doing anything to the files, but not 100%.
#42322 - Proteanruler - Mon May 09, 2005 9:32 pm
I would say I am nearly 99% sure it is patching done to the file before and NOT anything the neoflash software does. Have a friend looking into the stuff I suggested when he gets some free time. He is gonna buy a 512 meg XGT turbo cart and I'm giving him my passme.
#42325 - Proteanruler - Tue May 10, 2005 1:30 am
I'd like to add you don't even need the damn magic key or Passme!! You can use Flashme all by itself!!! I knew I had read this somewhere but I've always struggled with the timing for doing a+b+x+Y (doh!) and not quite understood it (just previously let the thing boot up with homebrew or pressed select to skip). Suffice to say - with a flashme'd DS and a neoflash cart (and from sounds of things 512meg xgturbo2 slimloader set) - do this a+b+x+y trick before it boots up (doh!) and you have a neat little setup with nothing poking out. I even checked saves were working on my asphalt cart using flashme (god I hate that game - finally it has a use as a 64k eeprom save cart). Quite neat if you ask me. Does beg the question - how the hell is this GS stuff working. Hmmm...
#42349 - Guyfawkes - Tue May 10, 2005 1:43 pm
one better than doing the abxy trick is to rename the rom name in the header. for metroid its FIRST HUNT or something, hex edit (A0H) this to DSBooter and reflash. the firmware hack will automatically boot the rom as it looks for the DSBooter (amongst others) rom name when booting.
_________________
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#42377 - gl0b - Tue May 10, 2005 7:50 pm
Funny neoflash people... on #neoflash
| Quote: |
Neo-Flash: neoflash not equal to xg2005:)
Orochi: then why can I play the mario64ds rom with flashme and xg2 2005 flash cart?
Neo-Flash: i don't know why |
U really don't know why? such a lie :P
_________________
----!-----
Next generation DS
#42382 - taichi - Tue May 10, 2005 8:17 pm
does the magic key work with the ez2 powest. 512 ?
#44888 - blueprint88 - Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:13 pm
Gl0b,
So were you able to use the Neo software with the XG2 and do you have to do anything to GS mario (like attatch a loader) or did you just drop it in the Neo software and flash it?
I just ordered a 1GB XG2 today myself so I hope it really is a Neo. I already have a F2A 256mb but figured I could use a 1GB card. I have a working wifime/flashme setup so I didn't bother getting a passme, just the XG2 and USB linker.
Blueprint
#45016 - gl0b - Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:01 am
I have no idea about the passme+XG2 technique...
I've just based my toughts on the 64scener.com's review
Sorry
_________________
----!-----
Next generation DS
#45041 - cory1492 - Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:25 am
supposedly the loader that is in the GS releases now (after the first two) specifically check for a magickey (making *me methods not work), so don't get your hopes up just yet that the xg2 alone is enough to play pirate roms... as well, a dump using slimloader of a neoflash loaded nds rom showed no hex differences so the patching of gs stuffs is likely being done exclusively for neoflash, or within the neoflash carts processor.
#45087 - Lynx - Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:36 pm
I can verify that the previous post is incorrect. Current releases work with PassMe (or at least mine) and, another thing that is kinda funny.. after you boot, you can pull the PassMe out, put the game directly in your DS and play it without the PassMe inserted. Now, of course if you turn your DS off, you will need a PassMe to start the game again, but I just thought it was interesting and thought I would pass the info on.
I have heard they don't work with FlashMe, but that might be because the people stating they don't work, don't know you need to hold A,B,X and Y down to force FlashMe to boot. But, haven't verified it myself.
#45096 - whackawookie - Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:53 pm
i can verify flashme dont work, i have done alot of attempts but no success, abxy, different ds games, ive even tried letting it watch tv with me, nothing. maybe a new flashme could solve this, ive tried looking for a passme to buy but i cant find a site that stocks them.
#45145 - blueprint88 - Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Well I am about to find out once I get the XG2. That is just sucky if a release group is doing hardware checks for something like the passme/magickey on their dumps. In theory all *ME solutions should do the same thing.
Has anyone used a Neo or XG2 with various *ME and can verfiy if they work?
Also how about renaming the the game title with hex editor to DSBOOTER
Just curious, all will be know with a little expiremtation soon. Hell if I have to I will just build a passme.
Blue
#45167 - blueprint88 - Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:23 am
It would seem atleast from feedback from other forums that the newer GST releases do not work with flashme.
Grrrr....what a crock. I mean the early GST releases worked with flashme why the need to change. This relationship between GST and Neo is almost disturbing. I mean it totally breaks the code of the scene. Which has always been to do this stuff for non-profit reasons.
The flashme solution is so slick.....no extra hardware is the way to go. I hate dongles.....which is basicly what the passme/neokey becomes when you don't need it do to flashme
Alas all of this is still in its early fazes. Other flash card companies will figure out what neo has done and other release groups will emerge hopefully bringing us no-dongle releases.
Ok thats the end of my rant. Until I get some hardware to play with I will suspend all judgement. Just having the whole DS dev scene come along so quickly is exciting. Thanx to all the cool coders who have helped make this possible.
Blue
#45186 - whackawookie - Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:50 am
ive done various hex editing on the new releases, header changes, compared every new release to eachother to find a smiliar string that isnt in the original two releases(ofcourse comparison only compares values on the same line, not throughout the nds) and combining the multi loader and ndsloader, nothing. its going to take a skilled person to find the value and once thats done, its smooth sailing.
#45194 - blueprint88 - Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:01 pm
I also was looking at old/new dumps with hex and didn't see much. Like you said it would help if someone with DS coding experience looked into it.
I just wonder if there are any real technical reasons that GS team is now requiring passme/neo to boot or if they are just being butts.
#45200 - cory1492 - Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:27 pm
I was interested in the filesystem that nintendo uses, but found that GBFS is better for my purposes, but while I was looking at the gst roms here is what I found:
there is a gba header
there is then a DS header
if you remove the gba header then ndstool is able to look at the ds header somewhat correctly, and you can see there that the addresses are odd to say the least. Trying to extract files causes a loop and the FS is not read.
So remove the DS header as well and get ndstool to remake it, and then try to extract files. It works a little better in that its going to more than one address in the loop, but it would appear that the FAT of the ROM is also patched with odd/incorrect values.
It would seem to me at least that these values are corresponding to specific addresses and commands to do with the xg carts, and for a rom dump group to only released patched roms for a commercial product, well, they are not much of a rom group but a commercial hype group then.
I think it would have been better to have let the dumps out without the patches and left it up to NEO to come up with patches if they wanted it to work with their commercial carts. Unfortunately that is not what happened. Can anyone say free flash kit bribes? Hushkits? (just kidding of course)...
This reminds me of another product, and their "underground release group" - DMS and Toxic bios/os on PS2 - in that case at least the point is wrather moot that the commercial company obviously is unwilling to release the info for anyone to code a bios/os on their product, and to come up with a commercially viable app like toxic it would take a little more than hacking, it would take intimate knowledge of the work that went into the product as well as source code for an app that was never publicly sourced.
Well, if another ACTUAL group decides to step up and release the REAL dumps that are not patched then maybe I will get a real chance to see how a complete FS from nintendo looks, extracts and works, but as I said before, for my purposes GBFS is more than adequate unless a DS slot type writeable cart comes along... thanks costis! (and darkfader for the REAL deal filesystems in your dumps)
#45234 - blueprint88 - Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:17 pm
Cory,
My point exactly.....GST is not your typical scene release group and are more of a lets make this comercial product (Neo) more attractive group.
That just cuts against the typical scene vibe. I mean most sceners do this stuff because it is fun and educational, not to uphold a comercial product and not so people can play free software.
I give GST credit for being able to produce the first flash card runnable DS comercial roms. I mean it takes effort to rip the games and patch the hell out of them so they work, but they aren't really adding much to the overall scene because they are keeping their roms and info on the process they are using to themselves.
Now once my new cart shows up I will just shut up,be thankful and go play GSTs release of the Jap Meteos, that is until it gets a USA release later this month. The demo of that game has me hooked. It is easily the best stylus puzzle game ever. I baught Puyo on DS and it is a nice adaptation, but really the need for the stylus is zero.
Blue
#45242 - amiga - Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:56 pm
Hi,
I can say that at least for me the passme doesn't work at all.
First I had my nintendo ds with flash me and a xg2 turbo 512M and the dumps didn't work.
Then I read that with the passme should work and I bought one to lynx that I just received and I have tried and It's the same , always white screens.
I have tried with all the diferent dumps the oldest and the newest and it's the same.
And it's weird because in nds mode the neo power kit recognizes the name of the rom and the size properly and doesn't put any loader but nothing.
I have tried with the metroid demo and rayman originals but nothing.
It's seems it works for some people I don't know if I have to do something with the patches in the setup of the neo power kit but I have tried everything and didn't work.
Maybe there is a difference that I cannot find.
#45247 - josath - Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:35 am
i think xg2 and xg2 turbo may be different, and that the neoflash = xg2, not xg2 turbo.....but i could be wrong
#45250 - whackawookie - Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:07 am
i got myself an xg2turbo 2005 model and it works with neoloader software and the first two games without a problem, so i dont think there different. does ur xg have the slimloader and/or what software are u flashing with?
#45285 - blueprint88 - Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:09 am
Wasn't there an xg2 turbo 512mb card that was pre the 2005 models?
That may be the problem as it appears you have to have the xg2 turbo 2005 512 or 1GB cards. That card writen with neo software and using a proper passme appear to work with all current releases.
I am guessing the people that have earlier passmes with problems have either a different CPL chip or slightly different code programed in them.
Who knows maybe it is just easier for GST to do their rips working with passme and thats why they aren't supporting flashme with recent releases.....like they figured some easier way out after the first two releases.....or maybe they just like extra hardware sticking out of their DSs
At any rate hopefully some kind genius will create a patcher for GST games that let them boot from flashme.....if that is even possible.
I am not sure if a fashme upgrade would work as a solution....If GST is doing a hardware check for the passme/noekey CPL or code in it to allow the rom to boot then I don't see how a firmware fix would do anything. If that is what is happening then all someone would have to do is remove the GST check code or force it to always return a yes to CPL check. That wouldn't seem that hard for someone who know their way around a DS rom image........which currently isn't many people.
What happened to the good old days when groups tried to one up each other for glory.......If GST is just doing a dongle check then some other group should try to crack it and be the Hero of the Flashme Day....Breaks into metalica solo.....Mama they try to break me
#45295 - amiga - Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:17 am
I've got the XG2 turbo 512M, I thought it was the 2005 version but now I'm not sure.
And yes I've got the slim loader III and the neo power kit recognizes it as neo flash rom 512M.
Edit: It was made on 3 2005.
#45358 - cory1492 - Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:24 pm
Just a thought, but here in Canada we hate GST (7% goods and services tax) - could be why they chose that name, politics screwing the populace.
#45377 - whackawookie - Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:31 am
anybody here seen canadian bacon. i love that flick
#45674 - Keylogger - Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:45 pm
So does the Xg2 2005 + passme work with last GST releases?
Passme = magic key, right?
#45687 - muckers - Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:20 pm
Yes, PassMe is *identical* to Magic Key. Except, Magic Key has an outer casing. But that is all!
And the Neoflash carts are just XG Flash 2 Turbo carts that have been repackaged.
It's probably cheaper to go that route (PassMe +XG Flash 2 cart).
#45693 - Keylogger - Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:30 pm
Ok but I've heard that the last GS Team roms only work with Magic key and don't with passme! Is it true?
#45703 - Chetic - Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:17 pm
| muckers wrote: |
| It's probably cheaper to go that route (PassMe +XG Flash 2 cart). |
Neoflash 512Mb = $199
XG2T 1024Mb + PassMe = $132
The XG2T I looked at is from winsunx.com, and PassMe is dspassme.com.
Twice the size, not far from half the price.
| Keylogger wrote: |
| Ok but I've heard that the last GS Team roms only work with Magic key and don't with passme! Is it true? |
I doubt that more than I doubt Bill Gates is a nice person.
_________________
Packin':
Grey DS with FlashMe v7
1Gbit XG2T 2005 (Neoflash compatible)
GBAMP, Supercard CF, 512Mb Magic Key 3 and EZFA 256Mbit
#45708 - amiga - Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:41 pm
At least for me it's not the same.
I've got passme+xg flash 2 turbo 512M 2005.
And I cannot get working any of the roms.
Maybe there are different passmes, I've got one of the last ones of lynx.
And I'm not a newbie, I have tried everything and I've got a flashme (at the beginning everybody said that it was enough), wifime and everything working properly but the roms (I've got practically all of them even different versions the first two and the latest) don't.
And the software of the neo power kit works properly (but its really slow and it doesn't work very well with the saves of gba) and recognizes properly the roms and the flash cartridge.
#45713 - tepples - Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:21 am
| Keylogger wrote: |
| Ok but I've heard that the last GS Team roms only work with Magic key and don't with passme! Is it true? |
If you want to discuss GS Team's infringing copies, please take it to Pir^H^H^HPocket Heaven.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#45736 - Lynx - Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:32 pm
If it doesn't work for you, your doing something wrong.
I think this tread should be deleted, or anything GST related should be deleted from the thread.
#45752 - Keylogger - Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:20 pm
| Quote: |
| If it doesn't work for you, your doing something wrong. |
You mean that Xg2 2005 + passme work with the last GST releases?
I just want to know if Xg2 2005 + passme = Neo flash! It's all!
#45785 - tepples - Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:44 pm
As I said, please discuss the GST releases only on sites other than gbadev.org, such as Pocket Heaven.
Locked. PM me if you have something further to say about this topic that does not relate to the GST releases.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.