#633 - lgalea - Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:12 am
Just curious, has anyone on these forums ever published a game they developed?
#638 - Splam - Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:54 am
Not without being at an actual software company at the time :) It's getting to be rare these days (not like when I started on c64 and spectrum), there are a couple of places that are willing to publish quality homebrew dev'd stuff, but it has to be Quality with the capital Q :)
#645 - Sweex - Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:35 am
I think these days it's next to impossible to get a game published, not working for a company. I think that the best way to get some money for your game, is to sell it on the net. This "market" seems to be getting more popular. Offcourse, this doesn't go for any console titles:(
#682 - sgeos - Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:37 pm
| Splam wrote: |
| there are a couple of places that are willing to publish quality homebrew dev'd stuff, but it has to be Quality with the capital Q :) |
What are these couple of places?
-Brendan
#714 - SamX - Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:56 pm
Is this topic regarding Independent Games Publishing, as in, publishing the title yourself like Lucasarts? Or Independent Development, as in, self funding the project and getting published by a publisher?
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#750 - Splam - Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:48 am
@SamX the 2nd one :)
@sgeos
One place that comes to mind is Thalamus Interactive (www.thalamusinteractive.com) I read on their site they were looking for finished or near finished games which they would fund to completion. Not sure what kind of money they'd be willing to pay though.
The main problem with gba (as with most cart based consoles) is the carts are made by the console maker so they tend to get the last word about releasing games, could be you code something really good and Nintendo just don't want it. What gba needs is an independent company willing to make carts and market them.
#759 - Burre - Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:28 pm
| Splam wrote: |
@SamX the 2nd one :)
@sgeos
One place that comes to mind is Thalamus Interactive (www.thalamusinteractive.com) I read on their site they were looking for finished or near finished games which they would fund to completion. Not sure what kind of money they'd be willing to pay though.
The main problem with gba (as with most cart based consoles) is the carts are made by the console maker so they tend to get the last word about releasing games, could be you code something really good and Nintendo just don't want it. What gba needs is an independent company willing to make carts and market them. |
To be honest I don't think anyone besides Nintendo is authorized to make carts for the GBA. To do so will probably violate some licences that Nintendo holds.
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#765 - Splam - Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:43 pm
True, but then they become a monopoly (to a certain degree) which is illegal in itself, there have been cases like this in the past where the unofficial cart makers have won court cases and are allowed to sell their own carts..
#770 - RedboX - Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:05 pm
| Burre wrote: |
To be honest I don't think anyone besides Nintendo is authorized to make carts for the GBA. To do so will probably violate some licences that Nintendo holds. |
Datel/Codejunkies managed to publish several GBC titles, the way they got around Nintendo's licensing was to use thier own custom mapper, and also not use the nitendo logo at boot up..
They put out about 8 games in total under the Rocket Games title, heres a link to a review of one:
http://www.gameshark.com/gameboy/articles/304290p1.html
#866 - J-Rod - Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:02 pm
Interesting Redbox, I am going to look into that.
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#868 - Splam - Sat Jan 11, 2003 5:06 pm
Codemasters have done it in the past too, I believe it was sega roms they published themselves (could be others too).
#875 - ampz - Sat Jan 11, 2003 7:39 pm
| RedboX wrote: |
| Burre wrote: |
To be honest I don't think anyone besides Nintendo is authorized to make carts for the GBA. To do so will probably violate some licences that Nintendo holds. |
Datel/Codejunkies managed to publish several GBC titles, the way they got around Nintendo's licensing was to use thier own custom mapper, and also not use the nitendo logo at boot up..
|
How did they do that?? The GBA compares the logo against a copy stored in BIOS ROM. I can only assume that the GBC does the same.
#1015 - RedboX - Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:33 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| RedboX wrote: | | Burre wrote: |
To be honest I don't think anyone besides Nintendo is authorized to make carts for the GBA. To do so will probably violate some licences that Nintendo holds. |
Datel/Codejunkies managed to publish several GBC titles, the way they got around Nintendo's licensing was to use thier own custom mapper, and also not use the nitendo logo at boot up..
|
How did they do that?? The GBA compares the logo against a copy stored in BIOS ROM. I can only assume that the GBC does the same. |
they used a PIC12C508 to toggle memory banks on power up, during power up the GBC copies whatever is in the logo to the screen and then goes through the "ba-pling" sounds, *THEN* it checks the CRC prior to boot... so basicaly the hardware gives it a custom logo first time, and a real nitnendo one second time, and of course it only shows the custom logo on screen.....
heres the exact timings..
powerup with "Nintendo" logo
"Nintendo" logo present for 19.2ms after reset
Custom logo present for 89.6ms
"Nintendo" logo present for 46.4ms
Custom logo present for 262.7ms
"Nintendo" logo present forever
I dont know if that works on the GBA a I've never tried the carts on a GBA...
I can not rember what the GBA action replay does during boot, I will have to check that once I get a working GBA again
#1039 - ampz - Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:54 pm
Cool, but how does it solve anything? The Nintendo logo must still be stored in cart memory. Isn't that illegal by itself?
Oh, BTW... Has anyone examined the BIOS more closely? One thing I don't get is why the first sequential read the bios does from the cart after poweron is the first four words on the cart?
The first two words is the entrypoint, the bios have no reason whatsoever to read it before it branches to it at the end of the bootup procedure.
The second read starts from word 0x60
#1044 - squeakytoy - Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:07 am
I've got an old unlicensed NES game (which is crap by the way), that has it's own cartridge slot. It only boots if a real, official NES game is plugged in, Game-Genie style. I guessing this was for legal reasons which may be applicable here.
#1047 - ampz - Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:58 am
Yes, that is one way to solve the problem.
Doesn't look that professional thou...
#1051 - tepples - Tue Jan 14, 2003 5:24 am
| ampz wrote: |
| Cool, but how does it solve anything? The Nintendo logo must still be stored in cart memory. Isn't that illegal by itself? |
Not in the USA. According to the Sega v. Accolade decision, it's not copyright infringement to store the logo data in a cart's header. And it's not even copyright infringement to display the logo in the header.
It's not trademark infringement if you clearly disclaim any affiliation with or endorsement by Nintendo. Thus, the "NOT LICENSED BY SEGA" screen immediately after the Sega logo screen in Bleem! for Dreamcast.
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Heck, the average consumer probably thinks that the logo data is stored in and displayed by the hardware; see also the Nintendo logo in the simulated display on the front of the box the GBA unit came in.
The only remaining IP problem may be patent infringement, but I'd bet that any patent lawyer worth his salt could dig up some prior art for a multiplexed address bus on the cart edge of a game pak. Intellivision anyone?
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#1080 - PeterP - Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:03 pm
I've had several game published, but only while working for "real" game companies.
Anyway, I don't think it's impossible to get your game published. Start your own game company, it doesn't have to cost that much. The biggest "cost" is the time you spend. The thing that matters most is that you and your team has talent.
If you've never released any games before, then I recommend that you take your finished game to some established game company and ask them if they're interested in a co-development or "producing" the game for you. If they like it and think that they can make money from it, they'll contact the publishers and set up contracts. It does, however, mean that the company "producing" it will make more money than you, but it's a way to get experience and contacts.
If the game did reasonably well, then you'll be able to talk to publishers directly for the next game.
Cheers,
Pete
#1132 - ampz - Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:02 pm
Are you sure the SEGA logo is really stored in the game? It may very well be stored in the BIOS.
EDIT
About Patents, There are no Nintendo patents regarding the cart hardware in sweden, or most other countries. This because the hardware used in carts isn't much of an "invention" and thus it can't be patented.
I don't know about US patents, because nintendo has got a couple hundred US patents, and I haven't had the time to read them all... :)
If you release a game in all countries except US, you should be ok, patent-wise that is, there might exist other issues.
#1161 - tepples - Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:42 am
| ampz wrote: |
| Are you sure the SEGA logo is really stored in the game? It may very well be stored in the BIOS. |
On the Dreamcast, just as on the GB and GBA, the logo graphic is stored in the game's header and matched bit-by-bit to a copy in the BIOS. On the Genesis, the logo data was a JSR to a BIOS subroutine that displayed "PRODUCED BY OR UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA" on a black screen; the system would reset itself if that function were not called within a few cycles of power-on.
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#1164 - Daikath - Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:43 am
Cant you just make a game yourself at home, setup a company and then email legitimate (at least in the traditional sense) publishers with a demo?
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#1167 - Splam - Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:15 am
You don't need to set up your own company if you're going to send demos to publishers (unless you need to for tax reasons).
#1175 - ampz - Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:37 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| ampz wrote: | | Are you sure the SEGA logo is really stored in the game? It may very well be stored in the BIOS. |
On the Dreamcast, just as on the GB and GBA, the logo graphic is stored in the game's header and matched bit-by-bit to a copy in the BIOS. On the Genesis, the logo data was a JSR to a BIOS subroutine that displayed "PRODUCED BY OR UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA" on a black screen; the system would reset itself if that function were not called within a few cycles of power-on. |
There you go, the lawsuit does not cover the fact that the logotype is stored in the game itself.
#1176 - Daikath - Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:32 pm
I didnt mean tech demo's. I meant actual demo's of games your making, unless you can send the entire game.
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#1194 - PeterP - Wed Jan 15, 2003 5:40 pm
No you don't need to start a game company to send demos to publishers, but trust me, they will take you far more seriously if you do.
It doesn't have to be a big company though. It's enough if you just register a name and act seriously.
Most of them will not even bother to look at your stuff if they think that you're just a bedroom programmer.
#1208 - tepples - Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:43 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| There you go, the lawsuit does not cover the fact that the logotype is stored in the game itself. |
Yes it was, to an extent. One of the arguments to the function call in the Genesis protection was the word "SEGA" in one of the 68000 CPU's 32-bit registers.
But even if the direct circumstances of the Sega case don't cover Nintendo's GB/GBA protection, the test specified in the opinion would probably still cover it.
That said, it's possible to get around the GB, GBP, SGB (but not GBC, GBA) protection without displaying "Nintendo" by taking the ROM off the data bus for the first second after powerup so that the "black rectangle" appears, and then turning on the ROM. The secret is that the GB checks the header twice, once to display the logo and once to determine whether to start the game. This does NOT work on the GBC or GBA, which check the header once.
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#1217 - Daikath - Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:22 pm
| PeterP wrote: |
| No you don't need to start a game company to send demos to publishers, but trust me, they will take you far more seriously if you do. |
Wich brings up my next question :), how does one act seriously in these cases? I dont have any idea how developers act then. Or it could be that im imagening it being way more complicated then it really is :).
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#1221 - Splam - Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:47 pm
When I've been looking at external game demos whilst working at software companies I'd expect the following things.
A playable demo (doesn't need to be complete game).
A design document, this is VERY important to some game companies, theres no use emailing and saying "Hi, here's my game demo, it's kind of a shoot-em-up and it might have this and that and I was thinking about trying this" etc. You need to lay out EXACTLY what the game design is, a story or plot behind it gives the publisher a "feel" for your game. Technical info on what techniques you're using (even if they don't understand a word of what you're talking about it makes them think YOU DO hehe). Printouts of graphics (even if they're just concept sketches of levels/sprites that aren't in the demo). etc etc basically ANYTHING you can think of to do with your project should go into the design doc.
A schedule. You can do this in excel (most companies use propper schedule management software but they won't expect you to). The schedule should have tasks split by people working on the project, coders, artists, musicians etc Each of these people should then have their tasks split into number of days it will take for completion (of course most of the time these are estimates but they expect that). If you're half way through the project make sure you add what is already done and how many days it took for each task.
A quick example would be something like this..
Coder - Splam
Tasks
Joypad reading with debounce 1 day - Complete
Font printer 1 day - Open
Tile based background level scroller 2 days - Open
etc
Yeah, a joypad reader would take about 2 mins to type, but these over estimates are expected because they tend to cover under estamites on other tasks.
Send all of that to a publisher with your game demo and you'll get a lot more interest than someone who sends a cart image. They can see you're focused and know what is needed to finish the game (because the whole thing is layed out in the design doc and schedule).
#1224 - PeterP - Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:31 pm
| Daikath wrote: |
| Wich brings up my next question :), how does one act seriously in these cases? I dont have any idea how developers act then. Or it could be that im imagening it being way more complicated then it really is :). |
Just act like you're a businessman not a code monkey =) It's just a matter of common sense.
One thing that might seem very silly but unfortunatly is true (in most cases) is that the actual packaging of what you send out matters.
It helps if you send them a nice brochure of a "marketing mockup", something like an ad of your game in a magazine. Then include a brief but professional paper describing the technical details, the people working on it, company details etc. But this should only be a few pages. Include some nifty artwork here and there to make the paper more "eye catching".
There's a bunch of papers you can read about how to approach publishers.
Here's some to get you started:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20021220/ahearn_01.htm
http://www.gdconf.com/archives/2001/index.htm (check under Business & Legal Proceedings )
Cheers,
Pete
#1290 - Daikath - Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:15 pm
Thanks :)
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#1987 - Shams - Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:31 am
I would imagine Nintendo would jump on you like a tonne of bricks, if you attempted to manufacture & distribute GBA carts in large numbers. If they didn't, the big companies like EA, Infogrames (etc..) would all be doing it (would save them $5 US per cart I would guess) - and thats a lot.
I have also worked on several published titles (including as lead programmer), but alas non of them GBA titles, and non of them based off private projects.
General rule for publishers, is they wont publish something they don't own the IP for - unless it is a big IP (i.e. Harry Potter, or LOTR's). So if you want them to sell your game - you lose all rights to it, forever.
Nocturnal (the people behind Catapult) is working on a system where people will be able to get demo games published (but it wont be running for a few months yet). The people who write the games will retain the full IP rights to the game - several of these games will be on one compilation cart - makes it more financially more reasonable to go to market.
Mike
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