gbadev.org forum archive

Hello,

I wanted to start a post looking at the next incarnation of Nintendo's hand held console .. the DS2? The purpose would be to petition Nintendo with compelling argument for a more open development platform .. something similar to the GP2X.

It could be argued that if Nintendo opened their platform for modders and developers their user base would grow exponentially and so would their sales ... Case in point; Quake .. where modding and community development was actively encouraged & supported by id software and the end result was a phenomenon much greater than the sum of it's parts .. it certainly didnt do anything to dimish the sale of the game .. and from this modding community spawned Half Life and Counter Strike ..

Nintendo is obviously fearful of IP issues and encouraging pirates etc However any DRM technology is circumvented sooner or later ... Nintendo should ask what are actually protecting by locking down the console? Their real IP is in the applications and games .. so my suggestions to them is to move the DRM into the official game cartridges and leave the console open for homebrew apps ...

Thoughts/suggestions?

binarystar wrote:

Nintendo should ask what are actually protecting by locking down the console?

They're protecting their revenue stream that comes from manufacturing Game Cards at overinflated prices. Charging publishers per copy for each deployed copy has been the console business model since the Nintendo Entertainment System. Nintendo doesn't want another Tengen making and selling games without a license.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

binarystar wrote:

I wanted to start a post looking at the next incarnation of Nintendo's hand held console .. the DS2? The purpose would be to petition Nintendo with compelling argument for a more open development platform .. something similar to the GP2X.

This is the problem. As far as I know, I've never seen a GP2X for sale except from the official site, and I've yet to even see one in person. It might sound good to you, but you are one of a few thousand people interested in modding their system out of a couple MILLION people that have bought the DS just to play with it.

binarystar wrote:

It could be argued that if Nintendo opened their platform for modders and developers their user base would grow exponentially and so would their sales ... Case in point; Quake .. where modding and community development was actively encouraged & supported by id software and the end result was a phenomenon much greater than the sum of it's parts .. it certainly didnt do anything to dimish the sale of the game .. and from this modding community spawned Half Life and Counter Strike ..

It could also be argued that if Nintendo opened their platform, people would pirate like mad. There is already a bunch of piracy, but it's very small compared to paying users. Take, for example, the Dreamcast. While not "open," its loophole that allowed piracy out of the box was its biggest downfall in the US because noone wanted to buy games anymore. A system that comes out of the box just begging for piracy will not do well. Also, your example is invalid. While Half-Life used the Q2 engine (IIRC), it was an official game developed by Valve, not a modded version of Quake.

binarystar wrote:

Nintendo is obviously fearful of IP issues and encouraging pirates etc However any DRM technology is circumvented sooner or later ... Nintendo should ask what are actually protecting by locking down the console? Their real IP is in the applications and games .. so my suggestions to them is to move the DRM into the official game cartridges and leave the console open for homebrew apps ...

They are protecting themselves, the game makers, and YOU. Remember the Atari 2600? Yea, that was an 'open' system. It had no protection, and the mass of shitty third party games virtually KILLED the video game industry. Look up the ET game, they actaully buried it in mass graves it was so bad. You also contradict yourself by saying that moving the DRM into the official game cartridge is good. If it's circumvented sooner or later, like you say all DRM is, then wouldn't it be trivial to play dumps once the code was found out? And, keep in mind how easy it is to dump a DS cartridge even though we don't know the signed key.

While an open system is a dream for many on this forum, it is not feasable for Nintendo to do on almost ANY angle. Sorry.
_________________
Enter the mind of the dragon.

http://dragonminded.blogspot.com

Seriously guys, how hard is it to simply TRY something yourself?

There are some valid points made in the responses above

Quote:

you are one of a few thousand people interested in modding their system out of a couple MILLION people that have bought the DS just to play with it.

But that's the way it works with any modding community .. only a small percentage of the total users do anything beyond playing with the end products .. the community as a whole benefits from the efforts of the modders and developers though

Quote:

It could also be argued that if Nintendo opened their platform, people would pirate like mad. There is already a bunch of piracy, but it's very small compared to paying users.

I would argue that the level of piracy would remain consistent ... PC's are open systems [ unless you run Vista ;) ] ... game makers in the market are still publishing, still making enormous profits ( World of Warcraft ) .. even though pirating is still a major problem

Quote:

Also, your example is invalid. While Half-Life used the Q2 engine (IIRC), it was an official game developed by Valve, not a modded version of Quake.

That is true .. I was thinking of Team Fortress .. ( who where head hunted up by Valve at about the same time of the Half Life release ) .. there are still many other examples of individuals/groups who started out modding quake eg the guy who developed reaper bots went onto work on Unreal

Quote:

They are protecting themselves, the game makers, and YOU. Remember the Atari 2600? Yea, that was an 'open' system. It had no protection, and the mass of shitty third party games virtually KILLED the video game industry.

Actually .. I thought one of the major reasons for Atari's demise was a series of poor business choices by Atari's management & the rise of cheap personal computers which where also flexible gaming systems eg the Commodore 64 and the Amiga

Quote:

You also contradict yourself by saying that moving the DRM into the official game cartridge is good. If it's circumvented sooner or later, like you say all DRM is, then wouldn't it be trivial to play dumps once the code was found out? And, keep in mind how easy it is to dump a DS cartridge even though we don't know the signed key.

The point I am trying to make here is that you still need some DRM of some kind .. it is just the way that it is implemented .. is it necessary to lock the whole system down to protect the IP that resides on a cartridge? DRM seems more of a necessity from a companies political point of view .. any company has to make a reasonable attempt to thwarte piracy to protect their relationship with their content providers .. eg itunes implements DRM which allows Apple to sell songs owned by big corporations like Warner

binarystar wrote:

Actually .. I thought one of the major reasons for Atari's demise was a series of poor business choices by Atari's management & the rise of cheap personal computers which where also flexible gaming systems eg the Commodore 64 and the Amiga

You might care to do some research and maintain some consistency.

Atari's demise was long after both the c64 & the Amiga and I doubt if either had a major effect. I worked for Atari indirectly during the time when they were busily killing themselves with poor marketing of the Falcon and the Jaguar and putting all their eggs in the wrong basket.

The demise of the Atari VCS console itself was probably helped along by the poot quality of the games available for it.

Quote:

You also contradict yourself by saying that moving the DRM into the official game cartridge is good. If it's circumvented sooner or later, like you say all DRM is, then wouldn't it be trivial to play dumps once the code was found out? And, keep in mind how easy it is to dump a DS cartridge even though we don't know the signed key.

The point I am trying to make here is that you still need some DRM of some kind .. it is just the way that it is implemented .. is it necessary to lock the whole system down to protect the IP that resides on a cartridge? DRM seems more of a necessity from a companies political point of view .. any company has to make a reasonable attempt to thwarte piracy to protect their relationship with their content providers .. eg itunes implements DRM which allows Apple to sell songs owned by big corporations like Warner

Video game DRM has more to do with quality control and licensing of developers than protection of game IP so, yes, it is necessary to lock the entire console down.
_________________
devkitPro - professional toolchains at amateur prices
devkitPro IRC support
Personal Blog

Last edited by wintermute on Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Read the fallacy of atypical examples. What works for a single case does not necessarily (or usually) work for everyone else.

binarystar wrote:

Actually .. I thought one of the major reasons for Atari's demise was a series of poor business choices by Atari's management & the rise of cheap personal computers.

From what I understand about it, the flood of poor quality games (both origonal and remakes) put people off buying video games in general, not just Atari ones, Atari helped crash the entire video game maket by haveing their system so open.
_________________
I'm not a boring person, it's just that boring things keep happening to me.
Homepage

PC is open, and there is a vibrant shareware, freeware, and free software scene, including clon^W alternatives to the popular commercial products, so why isn't the market for apps crashing?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

tepples wrote:

PC is open, and there is a vibrant shareware, freeware, and free software scene, including clon^W alternatives to the popular commercial products, so why isn't the market for apps crashing?

keldon wrote:

Read the fallacy of atypical examples. What works for a single case does not necessarily (or usually) work for everyone else.

Are you claiming that the PC is atypical? I can add the Apple II, C64, Spectrum, and Macintosh platforms, which flourished for a period "despite" their openness.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Yes. There is a lot of piracy going on on the PC, but the casual consumer buys their pc with bundled software and therefore has no need to pirate their software. There are few packages that are not available for pirate downloads at the click of a button; even Maya is available on pirate. And in the past the casual consumer would not have had the same amount of access to pirate software/games as there is today.

You could give pokemon as an example of a product that was the most pirated, and one of the most successful of all time(I know I usually do). I think it is an ongoing debate with no clear cut answer; many factors go into what effect these attributes have. Maybe the dreamcast had no real appeal to casual gamers and the entire audience who bought it were a demographic with knowledge of the availability of pirate games.

DragonMinded wrote:

Remember the Atari 2600? Yea, that was an 'open' system. It had no protection, and the mass of shitty third party games virtually KILLED the video game industry.

As I recall, it was moreso Atari being suddenly overtaken by a bunch of jokers who didn't know (or care) a thing about video games, and proceeding to release a mass of shitty *first* party games.

I think saying "open platform is bad for games because of piracy" runs dangerously close to saying "the RIAA's recent tactics are overall good for the music industry". Now I'm not saying we can't make that argument, but I think if you're going to argue that an open format and low DRM is bad for games, then you must also be prepared to to argue the same for music (or at least provide an explanation of what causes the difference of it being good/bad for games versus music).
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

On a slight tangent:

DragonMinded wrote:

It had no protection, and the mass of shitty third party games virtually KILLED the video game industry. Look up the ET game, they actaully buried it in mass graves it was so bad.

I get so sick of this popular "ET sucks, it was buried in mass graves" silliness. Just because some video game magazine listed ET in its list of worst video games ever with this story doesn't make it entirely true.

Yes, it was dumped, but not because it was such a bad game. The industry was already on its way to collapse. People weren't buying games like they were before. Atari hyped and advertised ET, making a huge deal out of it, hoping it would be the killer game that brought everyone back. And it wasn't. Partially because it was a mediocre game. Partially because people didn't care as much anymore.

But Atari, thinking it was going to be so huge, massively overproduced carts for the game, which is why they ended up throwing so many away.

If you had been a big fan of the 2600 back in the day, you'd know that ET was MUCH better than many of the games that got released in those days. It just was rather mediocre, and thus wasn't the salvation for the games industry that they expected.

But alas, now it's cool to think that it's the worst game ever, and single-handedly destroyed the 2600.

Abscissa wrote:

I think saying "open platform is bad for games because of piracy" runs dangerously close to saying "the RIAA's recent tactics are overall good for the music industry". Now I'm not saying we can't make that argument, but I think if you're going to argue that an open format and low DRM is bad for games, then you must also be prepared to to argue the same for music (or at least provide an explanation of what causes the difference of it being good/bad for games versus music).

Music is a completely different industry altogether. You might be able to play a game at a friends, with a magazine demo, through borrowing or in the shops; but music is constantly played on radios and TV channels everywhere you go. They are completely different industries with different reasons behind a purchase. You buy a game because it is the only way to play it exclusively with the intention of 'clocking' the game; why people buy music that is rotated 24/7 on the radio is possibly down to being able to control what they hear for the 30 or so minutes on their train journey to school/work.

For example I don't buy CD's because I will never carry round a chunky CD player and most CD's make it impossible/too difficult to make mp3's. Buying mp3's makes much more sense, but why? I'm mostly listen to [modern] music in my living room when I'm taking a 15 minute break, other than that I play classical music in my room.

keldon wrote:

I don't buy CD's because I will never carry round a chunky CD player and most CD's make it impossible/too difficult to make mp3's.

There's a good example of why DRM is a bad thing. Nobody wants to buy a CD they can't copy to their iPod. I buy CDs rather than MP3s because they have higher sound quality, but they're still useless to me if I can't copy them to my various players.

As for DRM on video games, it's an act in futility. Look how much good the encryption and signatures on the DS did. Look how well Wii's signatures prevented piracy. It all gets broken.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

Well, if it was released as open, we (which is really refering to people with skill) wouldn't have anything to hack on.. :)

Plus, Nintendo uses their liscensing to "control" what is released. Reminds me of a MK version that didn't have blood.. who did that?
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Lynx wrote:

Well, if it was released as open, we (which is really refering to people with skill) wouldn't have anything to hack on.. :)

It would be more like the Windows Mobile scene, right?

Quote:

Plus, Nintendo uses their liscensing to "control" what is released. Reminds me of a MK version that didn't have blood.. who did that?

That was Nintendo, refusing to let games with content typical for an MA-17 rating onto its platform. (MA-17 was the rating used by Sega's Videogame Rating Council that roughly corresponded to the modern ESRB M, although "hidden" content wasn't included in a VRC assessment.)
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

HyperHacker wrote:

keldon wrote:

I don't buy CD's because I will never carry round a chunky CD player and most CD's make it impossible/too difficult to make mp3's.

There's a good example of why DRM is a bad thing. Nobody wants to buy a CD they can't copy to their iPod. I buy CDs rather than MP3s because they have higher sound quality, but they're still useless to me if I can't copy them to my various players.

As for DRM on video games, it's an act in futility. Look how much good the encryption and signatures on the DS did. Look how well Wii's signatures prevented piracy. It all gets broken.

As an extension to the idea of people putting music from their CDs onto HD/Flash players (I hate calling them mp3 players, because the mp3 format blows monkey nuts): I submit the fact that I have a HD with HDLoader for PS2 filled with games I legally own, and I *LOVE* the convenience of it (plus the fact that it saves wear+tear on the irreplaceable-without-buying-a-new-license discs). So much so, that I'm thinking of doing the same with my XBox (1).

Devils advocate: From what I've seen, most of the game industry is well aware that everything (worth playing) gets cracked. The big reasons why they still do copy-protection anyway are (not in any order):

1. Making it non-trivial keeps honest people honest (of course, the ethics and effectiveness of this part have often been debated).

2. Most games make most of their sales in the first few weeks after release (although it's debatable whether this is because of the customers or the retailers). So, by the time a game is cracked, it's already made most of its money, so the crack's potential for damage (however little or much that potential may be) is minimized. Of course, this applies mainly to game-specific protection measures, and not platform-wide protections (since systems don't usually get most of their hardware and game sales until after the first year or so - although I suppose you could argue the lack of cracks in the first year or so helps the system gain a foothold so it's already going strong once the cracks do hit, making it less likely to go the way of Dreamcast (of course, the actual reasons for the Dramcast's demise are debatable)).
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Just been doing some research on this ... and it is an utter fallacy to say that DRM would have protected the games industry from the crash in 1983 ... infact it was the total opposite ... it was the open nature of the new affordable home PC's .. particularly the Commodore 64 and the birth of PC gaming in the early 80's helped kill off the Atari and the console game industry ... when the Atari ( and other ) systems stopped selling, so did the games and the whole house of cards fell flat on it's face ... but from it's ashes the C64 took off . It is no small coincidence that the C64 was released in August 1982 and the video games industry collapse, which was largely focused around the Atari & other consoles , occured in 1983 .. indeed the aggressive pricing & marketing of the C64 eg a rebate where you could trade in your console systme for $100 against the C64 certainly sealed the console industries fate at that time ... simply put, less consoles in homes = less sales of console games

Also the Atari and other consoles cartridges where harder and more expenisve to pirate when compared to systems like the C64 ... I remember ( now I am showing my age ) when all you needed was some blank cassettes and you could get oodles of games and apps from friends .. infact the wide availability of games and commercial software and the open nature of the system that fostered a vibrant homebrew scene was one of the major reasons for the C64s success ..

Last edited by binarystar on Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:37 pm; edited 4 times in total

binarystar wrote:

infact the wide availability of games and commercial software and the open nature of the system that fostered a vibrant homebrew scene was one of the major reasons for the C64s success ..

That doesn't mean in any way that the homebrew scene will help the DS2. Windows are leading because of consumer identity and stuff like that. Maybe there was a time where shareware games played a part, but they don't any more. Do a short survey, most people use their PC for browsing the internet and writing the occasional word document. In work they use Excel for spreadsheets, Powerpoint for presentations and Access for their databases. Sage would [often] be used by their accountants. The homebrew market is very very small; look at the GP32! Nice and open, better technology than its competitors (at the time). In fact just look at the GBA!!!

Quote:

That doesn't mean in any way that the homebrew scene will help the DS2

So you don't think a community of developers creating cool mods and ports that can be easily and freely shared amongst DS2 owners would have any bearing on the DS2's market share? Interesting perspective ..

here is a scenario ... imagine if you would, that Nintendo did the inconcievable and opened up their DS2 to developers ... on the way to work/school you bump into a friend who has a DS2 system as well ... she has an awesome piece of software that she has written that you would like to run on your DS2 .. say a media player ... you link up ( wirelessly of course ) and transfer the program ... you take your DS2 to work/school .. show your mates and they too get a copy of the program and their mates also get copies and so on and so on ... the friend who has bought the iPod/PSP is starting to regret his purchase ... and now wants a Nintendo DS2

This is the kind of marketing that you can not buy .. where advocates of the product ( which include the mod scene ) are out there actively promoting and improving the product for you ... and as the mod community around the device grows, so does the number of mods and apps which increases the number of users, which in turn increases the number of consoles and games sold ...

Quote:

Maybe there was a time where shareware games played a part, but they don't any more.

Shareware games have not really been a major player in the PC world since the days of Doom ... it takes some serious rescources to build a high quality game from scratch these days .. something that a couple of friends sitting around on their weekends cant really do ...

But if you look at the modding community .. it is alive and growing ... people are creating maps and add ons for the games all the time ... the game engine etc becomes the vehicle for the mod community .. and in general the better the tools and more open the game is to developers .. the better the mods that are churned out by that community .. that being said you still need to have a great product (eg game engine ) to start out with

Last edited by binarystar on Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:36 am; edited 2 times in total

Nice scenarios, but they're a little rose tinted. You could be unwittingly spreading a virus; and it is better from Nintendo's perspective to be able to control their market as opposed to giving birth to a nice high speed mp3 sharing network! On top of this do they really want a FREE market on their systems? I thought they were a business interested in sales and profit.

What is [first] important is that homebrew developers can develop for it. If completely locked out then there is a problem.

Quote:

Nice scenarios, but they're a little rose tinted. You could be unwittingly spreading a virus

That is true ... I am just trying to illustrate a big picture scenario .. albeit a little idealised .. and I agree there would be a lot of fine details that would need to be worked through ... it would be far easier to work through these details with Nintendo's official backing

Quote:

I thought they were a business interested in sales and profit.

Q. What is Nintendo's core business?
A. Consoles, games and accessorries

All of the sales in these segments would increase under an open platform ... although as a consumer you could concievably run homebrew games ... I dont think many gamers would be content with them .. homebrew games just cant compete with the quality of official titles ( as you pointed out .. look at the shareware games currently available on the PC ) .. mods of offical titles may be a different story .. but you would still legally need a legit copy of that game title to run the mod

Quote:

What is [first] important is that homebrew developers can develop for it. If completely locked out then there is a problem.

I agree :)

Here is a start of a wishlist for the DS2;

i. Open hardware including driver support
ii. An open realtime OS .. maybe something similar to Apples OSX built on FreeBSD
ii. a processor with an inbuilt FPU and MMU
iii. A dedicated GPU that can render 3D
iv. A Micro SD slot
iv. Additional cartridge slots for USB and or UART .. or maybe SDIO? .. having add on hardware which dags about outside is just ugly

Wow.. sounds less like a gaming unit and more like a portable PC... You can get them now.. but they aren't $130.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Maybe you might find some of this fulfilled in the successor to the GP32!

keldon wrote:

The homebrew market is very very small; look at the GP32! Nice and open, better technology than its competitors (at the time).

No, the import market is very very small. There's a vibrant homebrew market on the Windows Mobile platform. If any Game Park or GPH product were available in United States retail chains where potential customers could try it in person, it would likely have sold many more units.

binarystar wrote:

Q. What is Nintendo's core business?
A. Consoles, games and accessorries

Actually: Consoles, first-party games, third-party game manufacturing, and accessories.

binarystar wrote:

All of the sales in these segments would increase under an open platform

The third-party game manufacturing segment might evaporate under such a platform.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

And licensing..
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

We may as well change the thread title and start a new DS2 thread. >_>

Anyway if Nintendo were to make a DS2 based on the original DS, things I'd like to see...
-Both screens touchable.
-Faster wifi.
-MicroSD card slot.
-Xbox 360-like ability to pull up the system menu and play your own music during games. (Hell, every console should have this, it kicks ass.)
-Media player in firmware (or sold on game cards using the MicroSD slot) supporting MP3, OGG, FLAC, JPEG, PNG, GIF, BMP, AVI, MPEG.
-PDA software available.
-Faster wifi.
-FPU, MMU and (obviously) faster CPU and more RAM.
-Better sound hardware/DAC.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

Personally I'd say maintaining GBA compatibility would be nice, as that way we can still all use our slot-2 Supercards and M3s and such. Eh, wishful thinking at least.

Though the FPU and MMU would be awesome to make developers' lives much easier.

HyperHacker wrote:

-Xbox 360-like ability to pull up the system menu and play your own music during games. (Hell, every console should have this, it kicks ass.)

The Xbox360 is running an OS in the background, so games never have complete control over the system.

I say that homebrew on the DS is fun because we have complete control over it. If you don't like the wifi or file system libraries you can write new ones. Linux is running because it can get dedicated access to the hardware. Quake is running because the hardware can be pushed to its limits without the restriction of an OS.

As Lynx said, what you seem to want is less like an upgraded DS and more like a portable PC.
_________________
http://chishm.drunkencoders.com
http://dldi.drunkencoders.com

How about about building the DS2 around an exisitng low power x86 processor like the VIA Luke?? make it easy to run an x86 OS ..

CPU, GPU and North Bridge are all ion one piece of silicon .. I have seen quite a number of small form factor SBC's floating around the web with these .. can dynamically change power consummption depending on processor load & comes inbuilt with some nice security features as well .. also seem to be reasonably priced

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/processors/corefusion/index.jsp

I think it's only logical to assume any next-gen hand-held from Nintendo to run some kind of operating system, mostly for the purpose of media and DRM. Another thing that isn't too far-fetched to expect is something like a quad core ARM Cortex and a proper OpenGL ES 2.0 capable GPU. As someone else pointed out, an FPU would most likely be there. And I strongly doubt they would be homebrew-enabled.

Well, I for one.. am not about to wear a backpack battery to keep the thing running for more then 30 minutes.. ;)
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

My DS2 wishlist (I feel like Cranky Kong here...):

- Bigger screen(s)

- TV-Out

- WPA

- Get everything right the first time so there's none of this "new improved version" coming out a year later.

- Ditch the crappy DSLite/Wii DPad and go back to the DSPhat's DPad.

- Option to disable Nintendo's damn health & warning screens.

- Full DS/GBA backwards-compatibility.

- GBA carts don't stick halfway out like the DS Lite

- Uses standard AA's or AAA's, and will act as a charger for NiMH AA's/AAA's

- Shape and layout done in a way that doesn't make my hands hurt.

- Go back to GB/GBA-sized carts (DS carts are too small)

- Ditch the terrible DS sliding-volume-control and go back to the GBA's volume knob.

- Ditch the terrible DSLite sliding-power-control

- SD-slot for saved games, so we don't end up with games like Sonic Rush and Clubhouse Games where multiple people have to either share the same save data or buy separate copies. (NOT Micro-SD!!!! I *HATE* Micro-SD! It's FAR too small and I already have/use regular SD cards (which are already too small) and refuse to have to get another type of card, because I HATE the idea of competing standards</micro-sd rant>)

- Some mechanism for homebrew

Of course, most of these will never happen.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Lynx wrote:

Well, I for one.. am not about to wear a backpack battery to keep the thing running for more then 30 minutes.. ;)

You shouldn't have to. Improved process technology, batteries and better hardware-designs should take care of this. These features are already well on their way into most parts of the mobile segment.

as far as homebrew support goes ... nintendo could provide some homebrew support to protect their games.
i.e. if there is some homebrew support possible with all the protection mechanisms in place, then only pirates (*yarr) will try to crack them, but not the homebrewers (*brew) - kind of like bush gave in to 'support' the hydrogen car by 2040.

Ant6n wrote:

as far as homebrew support goes ... nintendo could provide some homebrew support to protect their games.
i.e. if there is some homebrew support possible with all the protection mechanisms in place, then only pirates (*yarr) will try to crack them, but not the homebrewers (*brew) - kind of like bush gave in to 'support' the hydrogen car by 2040.

Interesting point...I had never heard that idea before. While I think there's some truth to what you're saying, I don't think the suits at Nintendo would think so.

Good idea, though

chishm wrote:

The Xbox360 is running an OS in the background, so games never have complete control over the system.

Well it doesn't have to be done the same way as X360, just give the same result. ;-)

Abscissa wrote:

My DS2 wishlist (I feel like Cranky Kong here...):
- WPA

- Get everything right the first time so there's none of this "new improved version" coming out a year later.

- Option to disable Nintendo's damn health & warning screens.

- Full DS/GBA backwards-compatibility.

- Ditch the terrible DS sliding-volume-control and go back to the GBA's volume knob.

- SD-slot for saved games, so we don't end up with games like Sonic Rush and Clubhouse Games where multiple people have to either share the same save data or buy separate copies. (NOT Micro-SD!!!! I *HATE* Micro-SD! It's FAR too small and I already have/use regular SD cards (which are already too small) and refuse to have to get another type of card, because I HATE the idea of competing standards</micro-sd rant>)

- Some mechanism for homebrew

I don't know how I forgot these. >_>

FYI, though, MicroSD is just a smaller form of SD. You can get adapters - they generally include one - to plug it into an SD card slot. On a handheld, MicroSD's small size is advantageous.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

HyperHacker wrote:

FYI, though, MicroSD is just a smaller form of SD. You can get adapters - they generally include one - to plug it into an SD card slot.

I know, but those are useless if you already have regular SD cards and get a device that insists on MicroSD (instead of the other way around). I'm not going to go out and replace my SD cards with MicroSD cards plus adapters. And there's no regular SD to MicroSD converter. Even if there were, it would be clumsy. And I'd still rather get a device that just uses regular SD instead of getting something that uses MicroSD and then have to also buy an adapter.

HyperHacker wrote:

On a handheld, MicroSD's small size is advantageous.

Sure, if your intent is to lose it or have trouble handling it (not everyone has tiny hands/fingers). I already find the size of DS carts and regular SD cards to be an absolute PITA. Not a chance in hell I'm willing to try to deal with something half the size of my fingernail. They probably cost more, too.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Quote:

if there is some homebrew support possible with all the protection mechanisms in place, then only pirates (*yarr) will try to crack them, but not the homebrewers (*brew)

Naw.. that's not true.. Some people do it for the challenge, not just for pirating.. Kinda like when Chishm proved that the GBA MP could run romz.. Yet he had the respect to not release it. If there is a challenge, the homebrew community is up for the task.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Judging by Nintendo's past handheld consoles, the next one will be about as powerful as a GameCube.

If you want that kind of power now, just get a PSP. It has:

Faster wifi
Memory Stick slot
An OS that can play movies, music and pictures
Faster CPU and GPU
More RAM
Better sound hardware
No health and warning screen
Bigger screen
Large (both capacity and physical size) storage medium
Out of the box homebrew, if you bought it when they first came out :-p

So out of all the features requested in this thread, the PSP does most of them. So, how many people here actually own and use a PSP?
_________________
http://chishm.drunkencoders.com
http://dldi.drunkencoders.com

Why the need for a FPU? The matrix multiplier on it does what it needs to do and integer math will pretty much always be more accurate if not faster.

Also, I enjoy the ARM CPUs. They are efficient with their instructions and pretty darn easier to code for.

Most exisiting OpenGL game engines eg Quake make extensive use of an FPU .. would make porting a lot simpler ..

chishm wrote:

Judging by Nintendo's past handheld consoles, the next one will be about as powerful as a GameCube.

If you want that kind of power now, just get a PSP. It has:

So out of all the features requested in this thread, the PSP does most of them. So, how many people here actually own and use a PSP?

Most of the reasons I didn't get a PSP are no longer valid (high price, lack of good games), or I realized I don't personally care about (low battery life - Don't care 'cause I never play on the go). The only thing holding me back right now (other than the fact I really shouldn't be buying a new system right now) is the insanely slow load times. If they fixed that (I'm crossing my fingers and waiting for a "PSP lite" with a faster disc drive), then I'd definitely get one.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

PSP is disc-based (on a handheld, what?), doesn't have enough games that interest me for the price, doesn't have a touch screen, doesn't fold over to protect the screen, is much less durable (you'd be amazed what a Nintendo product can survive), and is a Sony product. Those are the main reasons I don't have one.

Abscissa wrote:

HyperHacker wrote:

On a handheld, MicroSD's small size is advantageous.

Sure, if your intent is to lose it or have trouble handling it (not everyone has tiny hands/fingers). I already find the size of DS carts and regular SD cards to be an absolute PITA. Not a chance in hell I'm willing to try to deal with something half the size of my fingernail. They probably cost more, too.

You must have giant hands. If you look at the innards of a DS Lite, or even Phat, there's just about no room for an SD slot, but I'm sure a MicroSD slot would fit in there just fine. That's the big advantage: it's easier to design.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

Miked0801 wrote:

Why the need for a FPU? The matrix multiplier on it does what it needs to do and integer math will pretty much always be more accurate if not faster.

It lowers software development costs.

I don't have a PSP because of the price. Even at the "lower" price, it's barely even usable for $200. Keep in mind that we can purchase a WHOLE computer for that price.. if you don't care about battery life because you don't game on the go.. buy a computer..

It's easy to list all the things we would like in a system, but not mention price. I think Sony is great at that.. Look at the PS3.. I don't know about your area, but I could walk into pretty much any (insert major retailer here) and buy a PS3.. I have yet to actually SEE a Wii EVER! But, for $600, you can buy two Wii's.. And when MythTV releases the Wii channel (flash based, I believe) I will have to hunt a Wii down..

Is it because Nintendo isn't manufacturing them as fast as Sony? Or is it that demand is still so high they can't manufacture them fast enough? I guess we'll have to wait and see the numbers.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Abscissa wrote:

The only thing holding me back right now (other than the fact I really shouldn't be buying a new system right now) is the insanely slow load times.

Not all games have insanely slow load times. Sure Midnight Club and WWE suck, but GripShift loads quickly. There's a video on YouTube comparing GripShift to WWE, called "PSP Load Time Heaven and Hell".
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Lynx wrote:

I don't have a PSP because of the price. Even at the "lower" price, it's barely even usable for $200. Keep in mind that we can purchase a WHOLE computer for that price.. if you don't care about battery life because you don't game on the go.. buy a computer..

Of course, buying a DS with homebrew equipment isn't all that much cheaper. Consider that for the best homebrew support for both GBA and DS, a slot-2 device with RAM is recommended. So we'll be generous and say $130 for a new DS, $40 for a non-Rumble Supercard (mine was $50), a $20 NoPass device, and a $10 media card, and you're up to $200 right there.

You can probably shave off the $10 if you already have the media card, or the $20 NoPass device if you buy an Action Replay DS, flash your system, and return it, but still, the fact remains that it costs money to enable homebrew support on the DS, which must be factored into the price.

Quote:

Is it because Nintendo isn't manufacturing them as fast as Sony? Or is it that demand is still so high they can't manufacture them fast enough? I guess we'll have to wait and see the numbers.

A recent Slashdot article implied that it's the latter there. Demand still seems to be pretty high.

tepples wrote:

Not all games have insanely slow load times. Sure Midnight Club and WWE suck, but GripShift loads quickly. There's a video on YouTube comparing GripShift to WWE, called "PSP Load Time Heaven and Hell".

That's good to hear. I guess I'll have to take another look. I did already know the wrestling game was an extreme case, but the one's I've looked at in the store kiosks still seemed to have agonizingly slow and frequent loads: ATV, some interesting-looking blob or ball puzzle game, and I think some baseball game. Even if most games do have good load times, I think I'll still wait to see if the rumored new model shows up.

Lynx wrote:

I don't have a PSP because of the price. Even at the "lower" price, it's barely even usable for $200. Keep in mind that we can purchase a WHOLE computer for that price.. if you don't care about battery life because you don't game on the go.. buy a computer..

I've seen used ones for as low as $140. And that was before the official price drop. I wouldn't be surprised to see ones around $115 or less now. Also, a PC doesn't have Crush, the new Lemmings game, the new Ghosts and Goblins, the new "Dracula X", etc. Exclusives are the only reasons I ever buy handhelds.

HyperHacker wrote:

PSP is disc-based (on a handheld, what?), doesn't have enough games that interest me for the price, doesn't have a touch screen, doesn't fold over to protect the screen, is much less durable (you'd be amazed what a Nintendo product can survive), and is a Sony product. Those are the main reasons I don't have one.

Other than the "# of good games vs. price" (which I would have agreed strongly with a few months ago), I'm completely with you on those complaints. But, annoying as they are, they're not dealbreakers for me, personally. Don't blame you for not getting one though.

But don't get me wrong everyone, I still like Nintendo more ;)
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Last edited by Abscissa on Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

dantheman wrote:

Lynx wrote:

I don't have a PSP because of the price. Even at the "lower" price, it's barely even usable for $200.

Of course, buying a DS with homebrew equipment isn't all that much cheaper. Consider that for the best homebrew support for both GBA and DS, a slot-2 device with RAM is recommended. So we'll be generous and say $130 for a new DS, $40 for a non-Rumble Supercard (mine was $50), a $20 NoPass device, and a $10 media card, and you're up to $200 right there.

But if you don't need GBA compatibility (just like the PSP isn't backward-compatible to Sony's previous PocketStation or CLIE handhelds), and you don't need to back up save data on your DS Game Card, then you can get away with a $130 DS + $40 R4 (incl. microSD writer) + $15 microSD card. All this is still cheaper than a $200 PSP, which can't even play homebrew because it comes with a version of PSP firmware out of the box that is not yet downgradable.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

kusma wrote:

Miked0801 wrote:

Why the need for a FPU? The matrix multiplier on it does what it needs to do and integer math will pretty much always be more accurate if not faster.

It lowers software development costs.

How so? I think I may know where you are coming from, but I want to be sure...

Floating-point doesn't mean you have to do as much numerical analysis to find the maximum range of a given variable. But world coordinates should generally be stored as fixed-point so that you don't lose resolution near the edges of the world (which can create very hard-to-pinpoint defect behavior).
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Miked0801 wrote:

How so? I think I may know where you are coming from, but I want to be sure...

Developers get to spend less time worrying about scene-scale and so on and more on the actual content. It's a convenience thing, sure, but that saves money in the end, and shortens time-to-market.

From my experience, if you aren't worrying about said things, you are going to run into problems anyways. Be it polycount or whatever. But, yes, I do see an advantage there if one is careful.

This being a Nintendo forum, I expected the responses about the PSP to be biased, but it does confirm what I was thinking. If Nintendo developed a handheld with all the features requested, it would either be fairly expensive, have poor battery life, take years to reach market, or a combination of the above.

It's nice to dream, but you have to realise that Nintendo market handhelds to as wide an audience as possible, and therefore they make them cheap and durable, not expensive and powerful. The technology is a generation or two behind, but it works well enough.
_________________
http://chishm.drunkencoders.com
http://dldi.drunkencoders.com

dantheman wrote:

Lynx wrote:

I don't have a PSP because of the price. Even at the "lower" price, it's barely even usable for $200. Keep in mind that we can purchase a WHOLE computer for that price.. if you don't care about battery life because you don't game on the go.. buy a computer..

Of course, buying a DS with homebrew equipment isn't all that much cheaper. Consider that for the best homebrew support for both GBA and DS, a slot-2 device with RAM is recommended. So we'll be generous and say $130 for a new DS, $40 for a non-Rumble Supercard (mine was $50), a $20 NoPass device, and a $10 media card, and you're up to $200 right there.

You can probably shave off the $10 if you already have the media card, or the $20 NoPass device if you buy an Action Replay DS, flash your system, and return it, but still, the fact remains that it costs money to enable homebrew support on the DS, which must be factored into the price.

That's true if you want DS and GBA support and a fair bit of storage space. You can get away with a DS and a Slot-1 card with a bit of built-in flash memory, or a small MicroSD card, for a lot less. You could even just get a GBAMP ($20) and CF card (as low as $15) and have a friend flash it for you (or buy, use, and return an ARDS).
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

Something like this http://www.ipc2u.com/catalog/U/U3/34384.html in a PC 104 format with a couple of OLED touch screen displays would be good ;)

Yeah, and it would only cost $282.55 US for the mainboard, and another couple hundred for the OLED screens.
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

Industrial SBC's are always very expensive retail .. I suppose because they are made in relatively low volumes eg 1000's ... if they where made in the millions stripping down the parts /devices on the board ( you probably don't need 2 SATA headers) I am sure Nintendo would be able to reduce the cost significantly.

OLED are in theory cheaper and are also more power efficient than LEDs ...

the crux of the biscuit is ... buy already exisitng parts 'off the shelf' which you can run a free OS *[BSD|nix] reduce development costs ( including software development ) and time to market ... using a custom 2 processor ARM solution eg the DS is always going to be more expensive to develop for

Last edited by binarystar on Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

i dont think nintendo would ever go for a x86 to put in one of their handhelds...

Ant6n wrote:

i dont think nintendo would ever go for a x86 to put in one of their handhelds...

Wonderswan by Bandai uses an x86 clone.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

That is why I am working (with some other people) on making a new game console system.
_________________
Important: Please send messages about FWNITRO to the public forum, not privately to me.

Keep in mind that mass quantities has a nice impact on price, but look up the "parts" of the DS and see what it would cost you to "build" one from scratch.. I'm sure it will add up to more then $130.

But again, you have to decide on your market prior to design. I personally have no idea what Nintendo was planning. But, they snagged me.. I'm not a gamer by any means, and if it wasn't for the touch screen and wifi, I wouldn't have givin it a glance when I walked buy it on display. But, I saw the hardware used and though, "Damn, that's slick, better then my $100 PDA for only $50 more!" Of course, it's not "corporate" approved for meetings like a Palm, but still.

PSP = Portable Games, Portable Video/Audio Player.. that's it.
I don't care about portable games, and I already have a portable DVD player that cost a lot less ($80).

As for the DS, I'm still not sure why I like it. I bought a crap load of games I never play (I should auction them) for reasons I still don't know. I guess Nintendo did a great job of sucking in the middle age technogeeks.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Lynx wrote:

Keep in mind that mass quantities has a nice impact on price, but look up the "parts" of the DS and see what it would cost you to "build" one from scratch.. I'm sure it will add up to more then $130.

You might be right, but I think Nintendo is actually profiting from hardware sales. They get the stuff for a low price, because they're mass producing/ordering the parts.
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com

If they were better to use the it is likely that everyone (including Nintendo) would be using them. Also note that there is no included GPU on that board.

The only way you could get Nintendo to look [campaign] at this is if you created the biggest pirate/copyright violation site on the net and hope that the R&D department accidentally come across it (and the campaign) before the piracy department do! And even then why are they going to suddenly change their entire development because of something on 'teh internet'?

Quote:

Also note that there is no included GPU on that board

With the VIA Luke .. the CPU, GPU & north bridge are all on the same silicon .. so it might? make a good choice for a hand held gaming device ... especially if it doesnt have to shunt too many pixels .. not sure how well the 3D core will perform .. but surely it should be able to handle games like Quake 2?

Quote:

The only way you could get Nintendo to look [campaign] at this is ...

You are probably right ... they are unlikely to change their development/marketing strategy with out a major shove ... this may need to come from a competitor building an open x86 gaming/multi media platform first

Quote:

That is why I am working (with some other people) on making a new game console system.

Is this a hand held system? I would be really interested to have a look at some info if it was .. can you provide some screenshots or a FAQ?[/quote]

http://www.ipc2u.com/catalog/U/U3/34384.html wrote:

VGA Controller: Integrated with Chipset

You don't have a 3d accelerator without advertising it; this is nothing more than a standard VGA controller.

binarystar wrote:

You are probably right ... they are unlikely to change their development/marketing strategy with out a major shove ... this may need to come from a competitor building an open x86 gaming/multi media platform first

Nintendo don't care much about what their competitors are doing. They knew about all the CD competitors but still released the n64 with a cartridge; they released a black and white gameboy against a colour game gear and lynx.

Quote:

You don't have a 3d accelerator without advertising it; this is nothing more than a standard VGA controller.

Seems to be pretty plainly advertised here

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/processors/luke/

""" In addition to the integrated S3 Graphics UniChrome? Pro IGP, featuring a 2D/3D AGP8X graphics core with integrated MPEG-2 decoding and MPEG-4 acceleration """

Quote:

Nintendo don't care much about what their competitors are doing. They knew about all the CD competitors but still released the n64 with a cartridge; they released a black and white gameboy against a colour game gear and lynx.

Just because they are slow to adopt new technology doesnt mean they dont keep their eye on the competition

binarystar wrote:

Quote:

That is why I am working (with some other people) on making a new game console system.

Is this a hand held system? I would be really interested to have a look at some info if it was .. can you provide some screenshots or a FAQ?

No, it isn't, but if you want to look at the specifications you need to request it by Private Messages (with your preferred username and MD5 hash of your password), the specifications will be made public after the system is built. I do need some help with it as well and if anyone wants to help you can request that as well (but you must wait until my message board software is set up to do that).
_________________
Important: Please send messages about FWNITRO to the public forum, not privately to me.

binarystar wrote:

Quote:

You don't have a 3d accelerator without advertising it; this is nothing more than a standard VGA controller.

Seems to be pretty plainly advertised here

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/processors/luke/

""" In addition to the integrated S3 Graphics UniChrome? Pro IGP, featuring a 2D/3D AGP8X graphics core with integrated MPEG-2 decoding and MPEG-4 acceleration """

Completely different model mate!

keldon wrote:

Nintendo don't care much about what their competitors are doing. They knew about all the CD competitors but still released the n64 with a cartridge; they released a black and white gameboy against a colour game gear and lynx.

Didn't they use cartridges for the N64 because of patent problems with CDs, and a 4-colour screen for Game Boy because the resulting lower price and longer battery life made it more appealing?

zzo38computer wrote:

if you want to look at the specifications you need to request it by Private Messages (with your preferred username and MD5 hash of your password)

And just what are you going to do with peoples' password hashes?
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

HyperHacker wrote:

keldon wrote:

Nintendo don't care much about what their competitors are doing. They knew about all the CD competitors but still released the n64 with a cartridge

Didn't they use cartridges for the N64 because of patent problems with CDs

No. Sega, Atari, and 3DO licensed the Sony/Philips CD-ROM patents for their systems. Nintendo used carts for the N64 because an optical drive with the kind of access time the first party developers wanted was prohibitively expensive to manufacture until 2000 when Panasonic showed its mini-DVD-ROM drive to Nintendo.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

HyperHacker wrote:

zzo38computer wrote:

if you want to look at the specifications you need to request it by Private Messages (with your preferred username and MD5 hash of your password)

And just what are you going to do with peoples' password hashes?

Add it to the planxy system so that you can login to view the specifications (it is not required to be the same password as this web site, it can be any password you want).
_________________
Important: Please send messages about FWNITRO to the public forum, not privately to me.

i think it'd be more useful for nintendo to create a new handheld which is compatible with the current DS so that games could run out of the box, and is sort of compatible with the gamecube so that not too much work is needed to adjust gamecube games for ds2

I say fuck compatibility, bring on the juicy future!

But that's just my opinion.
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com

The SNES / Super Famicom was planned to be backwards compatible until they estimated the extra cost at something like $70 per console. Compatibility with the current DS would require two screens and a touchscreen, pretty restrictive.

keldon wrote:

Compatibility with the current DS would require two screens and a touchscreen, pretty restrictive.

Touch screen yes, but two screens? Not necessarily. The DS screen (256x472 including the 88px gap between the screens) fits inside a rotated PSP screen (272x480).
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Hmmm!

so the new ds looks like psp but has a touch screen. and its settled :p

Introducing Nintendo Twist.

Clamshell case, like GBA SP. Top half contains a 480x272 pixel (PSP size) touch screen. Screen of open unit can be rotated by 90 degrees to form a vertical 272x480 pixel screen, or left in place for Brain Age. Additional controls include pressure-sensitive Control Pad for precise analog style control and a built-in accelerometer.

Mock-up
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

why not a tablet pc style hinge, i love it for a laptop

Quote:

Introducing Nintendo Twist.

Extra points for the mock up :)

Introducing Nintendo Twister.

The game includes a plastic sheet covered with large colored circles, which is spread out on the floor. Any number of people can play, though more than four is a tight fit.

The game has one spinner, divided into quarters by color; each quadrant specifies left foot, right foot, left hand, or right hand. After spinning, the combination is called; players must move the part to a matching location. No two people can have a part on the same circle (rules are different for more people). Due to the scarcity of colored circles, players will often be required to put themselves in unlikely or precarious positions, eventually resulting in someone's fall.

Mock-up

kusma wrote:

Introducing Nintendo Twister.

The game includes a plastic sheet covered with large colored circles, which is spread out on the floor.

Three words: Total. DDR. Knockoff.

SRSLY. ;-)
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

tepples wrote:

Introducing Nintendo Twist.

Clamshell case, like GBA SP. Top half contains a 480x272 pixel (PSP size) touch screen. Screen of open unit can be rotated by 90 degrees to form a vertical 272x480 pixel screen, or left in place for Brain Age. Additional controls include pressure-sensitive Control Pad for precise analog style control and a built-in accelerometer.

Mock-up

I like that. Not only would it be good for DS compatibility, but it would be great for over-head shooters like Ikaruga, while still retaining widescreen ability for other games.

Only potential problem I can see though, is the inability to close the clamshell while in vertical mode. People might end up trying to close it anyway (perhaps out of habit) and break the screen off the hinge.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Ooh, nice thread. I guess I should look into the Off-Topic section more often...

People earlier were talking of open development, I can't believe no one has mentioned Microsoft's XNA Game Studio Express, which allows homebrewers to code for the 360. Similarly, I found this awhile ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_homebrew#Official_Avenues

As for people saying, "why not DRM games, my DVD player can play DRM'd movies, but if I wanna play my own content I can just burn a DVD and pop it in..." First of all, I challenge someone to find a recent DRM effort that hasn't been broken within the first 6 months of release, secondly, where talking about CODE, not media content. So through homebrew'd code, people could exploit security holes to allow piracy, and the like, not to mention viruses...

Some of the things that I think would be probable that I would suggest for DS2:
More power (obvious) most of all more ram, and more processor capability (FPU etc.)
Cut down on the power cycles (quit to main menu without power cycle.)
Firmware updatability (while this would would squash us homebrewers, its always nice to be able to improve a console after its been released.)
Virtual console for DS (most likely is GBX, less likely is third party (game gear etc.) least likely is NES, SNES, and ...n64? with the ability to use ones you've already purchased on the Wii (Mac:iPod::Wii:DS?)
analogue stick (anyone who is calling the PSP schtick an joystick can... do something bad.) at least make it work better than the PSPs...

Internal flash memory (please no whirring hard drives.)

Less likely wishes:
TV-out
non-proprietary external memory (microSD etc.)
someone beat me to the OLED screens (no cracks!!) but i will take it a step further and say... FLEXIBLE OLED screens! (at least the top, who knows, maybe this could be applied with some hip tech to detect what the heck you're doing to the screens and apply that to the game...)

Re: analog stick, better than PSPs.

When I first saw PSPs analog stick, I thought it was made of Supermansuit-fabric and it would feel like a "button". I thought it would be really sensitive (like a nipple) so when you apply pressure from the left side, the "button" would not move to the right, but more like sink in at the left side.

Code:

PSP:
_____ _____
/_____\ /_____\
| -> /
| /

My idea:
_____ ___
/ \ -> ,/ \
|_____| /_____|

I think THAT would make a better analog stick than the current PSP one.
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com

Dood77 wrote:

non-proprietary external memory (microSD etc.)

Argh! I think my head's going to explode next time someone recommends microSD.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

Every one of Nintendo's handheld platforms has used a smaller cartridge than its predecessors.

Game Boy 8-bit: Game Boy Game Pak (roughly the size of a GBAMP CF)
Game Boy Advance: GBA Game Pak (half the length)
Nintendo DS: DS Game Card (half the width and half the thickness, or roughly the size of a CompactFlash card)

So what's next?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Yeah lick, I'm thinking of a joystick more like those old laptop mouse... things. The ones in the center of the keyboard, but bigger and with more give/more sensitive.

Something I forgot on my list, tepples, is for them to NOT half the cartridges, I don't think the current DS cards are sturdy enough to hang out of the new one...

Abscissa, I understand your beef with the size of the tiny card, but think of the difference in sizes between a SC: lite and a SC:SD, dare I say SC:SD is 70% bigger than SC:lite?

tepples wrote:

So what's next?

Micro SD sized games! :)
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

Lynx wrote:

tepples wrote:

So what's next?

Micro SD sized games! :)

*kerPOW!* My head just asploded. Ow.
_________________
Useless Rants a.k.a. My futile attempts at rationalizing my unreasonable reluctance to call my site a 'blog'.

tepples wrote:

Introducing Nintendo Twist.

Clamshell case, like GBA SP. Top half contains a 480x272 pixel (PSP size) touch screen. Screen of open unit can be rotated by 90 degrees to form a vertical 272x480 pixel screen, or left in place for Brain Age. Additional controls include pressure-sensitive Control Pad for precise analog style control and a built-in accelerometer.

Mock-up

That looks incredible unstable for any touchpad gaming. The touchpad is too far from where you're holding it.
_________________
Not active on this forum. For Lemmings DS help see its website.

Abscissa wrote:

*kerPOW!* My head just asploded. Ow.

Did I do that? :)
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

These are my random responces to various posters in this thread that is displayed in my thoughts.

I think we should let the lame brain people at whatever corp decided this and not us. Whatever it will be I will not be playing crazy or barely. I could imagine a 99 year old man waiting in line in Japan for the NDS and then going to the Wii thing saying ( when are they going to show us the mother ship already? )

While HD loaders are great the problem is the games are built for discs and a HD loader is no diffrent then a flashed Atari cart.

Let me tell you something. These systems hand held and even consoles of today is out of our leage and is not of us. We will never be able to do the impossible as what they did before us. Only features on top features.

CC64 is a computer like an Apple but a Apple is like a game system. In fact the development of Sega Saturn games was on Apple PC computers.
They have perfect emulators for the Saturn that could run on a old Apple PC ( most likely G3).

Real Developers, creators, designers, engeniers, or whatever could give a rat patute about features like RGB or Pi scale nonsense. If it can go threw Analog it is good enough for the so called developers.

A GBA CAN PLAY PORTABLE WMV, MOV, MPEG, and even if I am not mistaken DIVX files. You can even convert movies to such type.
A portable DVD player is too big to carry on the train ( unless it is split like a cassete tape player ).

GP32 is a PDA design to be a game system.

The PSP is used mostly for emulation like any other handheld or PDA from 199? thank god that people are doing this or else we would probably the umpteenth release of pac-man fever. Still there is good enough populus to create such games. If you grew up in the 90's ( but I literially grewed up in the 90's ) buying a PSP loaded with roms is the best thing for you right now ( unless your thing is not playing games while your outside).

Neo Nintendo is just a bunch of sick twisted punks now. They have no heart not anymore and not forever. The last time Nintendo had a heart was before they realize that they were going to give sony the rights to publish games. They let the FX chip go to there heads which lead them to the stagering N64 years that held up with there domination of the handlheld market and pokemon.

The Wii is like a SNES but with no challenge and the NDS should have been the gameboy 3d.

flash devices can play Mp3. Mp3 is the standard qaulity unless you want to count SPC and GCM along with FM qaulity. There is other formats also but mp3 is the standard.

The bios is a game systems OS. There is billions of OS, Bios, programing langauges, and formats out there.

This is not a Nintendo fourm. It is a game creating community towards GBA development. Mostly people who understands programing
or wants a 2d game on the most respected handheld is posting on the forums.

Nintendo only had the gameboy regular size cart and cut in half. They could go back to the regular size carts anytime they want to. In fact if nobody like the gba carts they where ready to this and some games are just as big as the original gb carts.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

:O (gaping mouth face)

OH WOW. There are so many things wrong with that post I have no idea where to start, I think I'll just talk of the most absurd things...

RegalSin wrote:

Let me tell you something. These systems hand held and even consoles of today is out of our leage and is not of us. We will never be able to do the impossible as what they did before us. Only features on top features.

Your wording is very confusing but what do you think Nintendo has been striving to do since forever? Revolutionize. Nintendo has proved time and time again that there is always a way to redefine gaming. There is still original material left and we haven't hit the point where all we can do is better faster technologies.

Quote:

A GBA CAN PLAY PORTABLE WMV, MOV, MPEG, and even if I am not mistaken DIVX files. You can even convert movies to such type.

No.

Quote:

The Wii is like a SNES but with no challenge and the NDS should have been the gameboy 3d.

How is Wii like a SNES? Well they're both gaming systems. So according to you an Apple PC is like a GP32... oh wait I forgot, GP32 is a PDA.
No challenge? My skill level on Wii tennis is over 2100, that took effort, and overall gaming experience and strategy. Sure anything is easy if you spend enough time at it. (not to mention the 'challenge' of a game system is 99.9% determined by the game developer, not the system.)

I think I'll leave the rest of the BS for others to tear down.

Dood77 wrote:

Quote:

A GBA CAN PLAY PORTABLE WMV, MOV, MPEG, and even if I am not mistaken DIVX files. You can even convert movies to such type.

No.

Hey, give him some credit. There is a DivX player for the GBA, but I wouldn't exactly call 2 fps a very enjoyable framerate. It's barely watchable in VBA when sped up to 400%, but given that even with a GBAccelerator you'd only get ~170% max, it's not worth it.

Perhaps he's thinking of the fact that the GBAMP movie watching software can convert various filetypes to a format the GBAMP can understand, or maybe he's thinking of the commercial Meteo program that creates a .gba file as output.

dantheman wrote:

...but given that even with a GBAccelerator you'd only get ~170% max...

huh?

dantheman wrote:

There is a DivX player for the GBA, but I wouldn't exactly call 2 fps a very enjoyable framerate. It's barely watchable in VBA when sped up to 400%

But it might be useful on the DS with some optimization. The DS ARM9 runs at 400% the speed of the GBA ARM7, and if parts can be rewritten in ARM9 assembly language to work around limitations of GCC's optimizer, it might produce 12 fps, or enough for cel animation and non-action movies, with more quality per kbps than DPG.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

The GBAccelerator was a hardware mod to the GBA sold/installed by Ahead Games that let you change the clockspeed of the GBA through a simple button combo. The main appeal of it was its potential use with SNES Advance to increase speed, and I believe the max speed it could safely attain was around 1.7x. Ahead Games also sold a small linker that could connect your SNES controller to the GBA link port easily, which worked with a specially modified version of SNES Advance.

Ahead Games went under, but a user on another forum had this to say:

Quote:

My company, Division 6, designed and built the GBAccelerator for Ahead Games. Since they seem to have disappeared without a trace, we are going to start selling GBAccelerators directly along with a new version for the DS in the near future.

I think I recently heard news of a DS overclock system like this, so perhaps that's a result of what he stated there.

Regardless, this is getting off-topic, so I'll stop here.

Dood77 wrote:

Nintendo has proved time and time again that there is always a way to redefine gaming. There is still original material left and we haven't hit the point where all we can do is better faster technologies.

Nintendo barely redefined anything. I am not going to list what and what but the revolution was just and still is a crotch for the banmentation of violent games that will lead us into TV games ( like Lazer Tag ) and to make us forget about the N64 days and pokemon.

Quote:

How is Wii like a SNES?

The Wii is along with the PS3 and 360 is overkill for 3d gaming and the SNES is considered the overkill for 2d gaming. It is considered an overall and multiple usage system. So is the Wii. The only diffrence is with the SNES it was a challenge for you to create a 3d game or 2d and have realistic motion and figures. There is no Wii challenge.

Quote:

No challenge? My skill level on Wii tennis is over 2100, that took effort,

I stated it is not a challenge to create a Wii game or NDS game compared to previous systems and handhelds.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

if you define "challenge" in terms of twiddling with the hardware to get some ubercool effect not thought to be possible on your device; hblank tricks or palette tricks etc.
there still is a challenge when developing games; it has a lot to do with creating and organizing tons of resources that are being displayed throughout the game... oh, yeah, and coming up with a game (story, design, game play), that too.
I'd say creating the same game as on gba is much simpler with nds, but creating a game considered to be good on a newer console is not trivial.

I was thinking "Huh" to the whole post!
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews

First of all I would like to say that I consider this a friendly debate, not a flame war, so I'm refraining from insulting you as a person where ever I can. If I do offend you at all, it was not intentional.

RegalSin wrote:

Nintendo barely redefined anything. I am not going to list what and what but the revolution was just and still is a crotch for the banmentation of violent games that will lead us into TV games ( like Lazer Tag ) and to make us forget about the N64 days and pokemon.

Yes, I know Nintendo didn't invent any of the technologies and some of them they obviously weren't the first to use them in games, but nintendo put them to good use, of course maybe a few of them flopped. (virtual boy, IR capabilities for GBC...) But look what has happened:
n64 has an analouge stick > playstation comes out with the dual analouge controller
DS has a touch screen > I can almost guarantee that the next sony handheld will have a touchscreen
Nintendo annouces the use of accelerometers in their new controllers > sony announces the "sixaxis" controller with motion sensing capabilities

RegalSin wrote:

The Wii is along with the PS3 and 360 is overkill for 3d gaming and I consider the SNES overkill for 2d gaming. I consider it an overall and multiple usage system. So is the Wii. The only diffrence is with the SNES it was a challenge for you to create a 3d game or 2d and have realistic motion and figures. There is no Wii challenge.

First of all I've changed your post a bit, because I've never heard anyone else say anything like this. You're entitled to your opinion.
Are you saying its a bad thing that its easy to program for a system? Why don't we just all focus on programming entirely in binary just because its a challenge? Game systems are made to sell, not made to be a challenge for developers, the challenge should be making the best use of the hardware possible.
I do believe that graphics don't make a game, but they can break a game, (look at far cry for Wii...) for one thing there is more going on here than better graphics technologies, from NES to SNES there is more buttons on the controller, allowing for more versatile games. If the only difference between generations of game consoles was processing power then I don't think very many will have sold. (picture state-of-the art graphics with an atari paddle controller) Also, even though there are a lot of games that look pretty, graphics can have a huge part to play in gameplay, remember playing a NES game when too many sprites where on the screen? Lag and flickering graphics effect gameplay, so what do you do? You bump up the technology and no longer have that problem.

RegalSin wrote:

I stated it is not a challenge to create a Wii game or NDS game compared to previous systems and handhelds.

As I said before, is this a bad thing?

Dood77 wrote:

But look what has happened:
n64 has an analouge stick > playstation comes out with the dual analouge controller
DS has a touch screen > I can almost guarantee that the next sony handheld will have a touchscreen
Nintendo annouces the use of accelerometers in their new controllers > sony announces the "sixaxis" controller with motion sensing capabilities

SIXAXIS borrows more from WarioWare Twisted and Microsoft's Sidewinder Freestyle Pro than from the Wii Remote.

Quote:

(picture state-of-the art graphics with an atari paddle controller)

What else is Gran Turismo series?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Quote:

As I said before, is this a bad thing?

A great example is Shenmue on Sega Saturn which is the eqaul to Vice City or Zelda but the diffrence is that Shenmue was on a much lesser system and if released would have broken down barriers of what we can and can not do on 32-bit console.

Instead it was released on the Dreamcast which pretty much overkill and thus the game has no long term effect besides details and realism.

My point is if you make a game on a system like SNES or Saturn and it was good. Your work would be even more respected then creating anything for any of these new systems.

Like me trying to revive a dead plant even when it has be turned to dust. People would be dazzled by my achievement rather then the person who grew the same plant that looks perfect over my rebirthed plant.

Then when your work is appreciated and respected you can taggle contracts to release the game in diffrent senarios on one of these Back to the future consoles or handhelds.

Quote:

SIXAXIS borrows more from WarioWare Twisted and Microsoft's Sidewinder Freestyle Pro than from the Wii Remote.

It is called a feature not an invention. Me making rumble devices for my controller or system would do no harm as long as I do not make it for there system. This problem is dumb since you have toys that rumble or use the ball thingy or whatever.

While features might have been inventions in the begining it is still a feature.

What are you getting at? Nobody realized the potential and Nintendo were the first to introduce it as a standard in a gaming console! Nights into dreams was pretty off the wall for the Saturn, didn't make it any more of a success.

RegalSin wrote:

A great example is Shenmue on Sega Saturn which is the eqaul to Vice City or Zelda but the diffrence is that Shenmue was on a much lesser system and if released would have broken down barriers of what we can and can not do on 32-bit console.

Instead it was released on the Dreamcast which pretty much overkill and thus the game has no long term effect besides details and realism.

My point is if you make a game on a system like SNES or Saturn and it was good. Your work would be even more respected then creating anything for any of these new systems.

Like me trying to revive a dead plant even when it has be turned to dust. People would be dazzled by my achievement rather then the person who grew the same plant that looks perfect over my rebirthed plant.

Then when your work is appreciated and respected you can taggle contracts to release the game in diffrent senarios on one of these Back to the future consoles or handhelds.

I understand what you're getting at here, but not upgrading the game system just for this cause is definitely not worth it. The XBox 360 has a bunch of new games that are small and in 2D on the Xbox live arcade. To run these small games on a big powerful system can be considered 'overkill' I guess, but these are cheap games made with a low budget, and there are plenty of other high performance games for the system out there, much more of them that are available on the Xbox 360 arcade. What would you have Nintendo do? Continue to support the NES and SNES while they make Wii games up to their full potential? Easier than that would be to let everyone chuck their old decrepit gray plastic systems and release all their old favorites on the new system, as an added bonus there are no cartridges to blow on! The fact is that the majority of average gamers out there can't stand ugly graphics. (one of the specific reasons none of my friends want to bother playing Quake 1 with me...) Nowadays, the NES is "cool" because retro is "cool". The same could be said about the SNES and the Genesis to a point. But the N64... its got ugly 3D graphics and was sooo middle school. So me, the average gamer, goes and spends a fortune on an XBox360 and buys up all those crappy games with "realistic" bouncing anime boobs. Considering thats what the majority does, you can't blame Sony, Microsoft, or even Nintendo for wanting to upgrade their systems regularly. Business is business.
And considering the last statement of the above quote, just because a game is difficult to pull off on a system doesn't mean it sells well. It all boils down to gimmicks, back in the day when a game was advertised as 3D! people were eager to see it in action, but many of those doom clones had nada in the way of gameplay, which is usually a must for a best selling game. On the flip-side, take a game like Wii Sports, my grandma, parents, and even some of my pre-WWII era teachers played it and enjoyed it. In the way of graphics this game doesn't stand a chance to anything else, even many games on the Wii beat it in that department. Games like Red Steel achieved great lengths in the way of graphics on the Wii, especially for a release title. But go to your local new and used game store, and see how many used copies of Red Steel are gathering dust.

tepples wrote:

SIXAXIS borrows more from WarioWare Twisted and Microsoft's Sidewinder Freestyle Pro than from the Wii Remote.

My point wasn't that Sony borrowed tech from nintendo, but that after Sony saw how excited everyone was getting about the Wii Remote, they decided to try to give Sony fanboys another excuse why they didn't need a Wii. Well, lemme rephrase that. I said earlier that Nintendo obviously didn't invent or pioneer any of this technology for games, but they put it to quality use in the mainstream market, how many of those Sidewinders actually sold? Where they still no where to be found on the shelves 5 months into their release? (btw, it was completely coincidental that all the examples off the top of my head are Sony borrowing ideas from Nintendo...)

tepples wrote:

What else is Gran Turismo series?

(but did I say I enjoyed the Gran Turismo series? :P) Like I said before, graphics are integral to gameplay to a point, but can you imagine very many other modern game genres that can be played with an atari paddle? (maybe I should've used the joystick as my example instead, only 8 directions one button...)

Quote:

Nintendo were the first to introduce it as a standard in a gaming console

The first at home system was the various pong ports and it was a illegal. Anybody from back then will tell you this.

The Magnavox odyssey was the first at home console that was legal.

All Nintnedo ever did was nothing but mass produce playing cards. It was Gumpei Yoko with his idea to move into the video game market and his light gun game idea that is still in effect.

Gumpei Yoko saved the company since the inheritance who went into all kinds of venture with the business failed eventually.

The point is when Nintendo released the Nintendo in Amerika they used advertisment schemes to push there games. Nintendo in Amerika is just a front and barely did anything besides the VHS Nintendo Home Entertaiment advertisment.

Most US items is just really good advertments. Like the God Auwful place I had to work at.

Quote:

didn't make it any more of a success.

Nights was just a simple game and more important was the Saturns Show baot game. The game itself is fun and had great graphics but that is what most show boat games are about.

The same could be said for Sonic Adventure, the original Sonic on Gen, Super Mario World,

The thing about Nights it could be displayed in 2d and would barely be affected by the transition. The game had an entirely diffrent atmosphere from the last system, and plays like a shooter and was an adventure but you never did any real shooting, adventuring, or anything negative.

Nights is more like a puzzle game that is extremly simple and extremly fun. Night have no boundaries and was just there to show boat. If we was to make a Nights sequel it would just be more of the same original game.

When I say ground breaking game. We are talking about something that is
completely diffrent and new. The thing is you can never make another game like Nights because it would still be Nights.

The sad part about Nights is that Sega did make a couple of games that is using the same system and those games are Panzer Dragon and Ecco.

So the correct ground breaking game in the Nights class would be Ecco. Since Nights is just Ecco with no gravity and fights with simple movments rather then charging and talking.

Quote:

To run these small games on a big powerful system can be considered 'overkill' I guess, but these are cheap games made with a low budget,

So you are calling what took over two years from 1994 to make on the Saturn only to be ported to a system that could probably do ten times the amount of work barely using any power a cheap game and low budget?

The thing is these new sapposive Back To The Future systems is cost effective and the technology is cheaper then rain water. Saying that a 2d game is low budget is a horrifically wrong thing. Back then the big thing was Animation and it cost alot of money to make.

Now everything is 3d made by people who could never draw for there lives. It is super cheaper then before. The fact I could recycle the same characters over and over again as many times as I want and is clearly is what they are doing now.

A great example is how HAL at Nintendo suddenly forgot Kirby flies in Kirby: Crystal Shards and instead gave us Super Smash Brothers Kirby and 2D view point that is slightly upgraded.

Quote:

high performance games for the system out there, much more of them that are available on the Xbox 360 arcade.

What? What is the diffrence with these games and other if they are High performance? What are the names of these so called HP titles? Is there a type of judge who says these games are HP?

Quote:

Continue to support the NES and SNES

Anybody is allowed to make there own SNES and NES right now. Also it is quite simple to maintain the SNES with only worrying when a specific part dies or blows if it does.

Quote:

as an added bonus there are no cartridges to blow on!

The cartrige system was and is still better then any Disc system. Discs are just super cheap to produce and can store more for less. Also the cart is harder to break and will more likely survive a fall. In fact the battery system which could be in every cart is better then storing everything in one place and cost less there.

Quote:

The fact is that the majority of average gamers out there can't stand ugly graphics. But the N64... its got ugly 3D graphics and was sooo middle school.

The fact is a the majority of games out there is displeasing to the eye not only 2d games and most so called gamers will see more of the uglier games rather then the nook and cranny or what they should pay attention to. It is even harder to find the nook in the West especially with 2d games since the West promotes 3d games ideas like "Ohhh 3d on the Master System and NES was horrid "

Quote:

Nowadays, the NES is "cool" because retro is "cool". The same could be said about the SNES and the Genesis to a point

Wrong that is because people like me grew up or was living with these things in our lives. They are as common as picking up my favorite food group or movie. More importantly things never really changed after 1985 in our world in terms of entertainment and technology. Everything just took a diffrent form like Car for example never really changed.

Quote:

So me, the average gamer, goes and spends a fortune on an XBox360 and buys up all those crappy games with "realistic" bouncing anime boobs

You just described the implusive buyer. Like I was at one time who would be like wow I will get that when it comes out. Then I get it only to find I spent too much.

About realistic Animated Nipples the Saturn, SNES, and PSX did that great.

Quote:

Sony, Microsoft, or even Nintendo for wanting to upgrade their systems regularly

Nintendo only did it since it was costing them more to get the parts for the GCN then sell them. Sony was dew for an upgrade but never needed one. Microsoft only did it fearing the PS3 would grab it's spot with 3d power.
People are dumb as the implusive buyer never thinking about how much it will be worth once they get a hold of it.

Quote:

Just because a game is difficult to pull off on a system doesn't mean it sells well

If you did it on the Sega Saturn and you did it good I guarantee people would be calling you for rights and wanting a game on there console. Imagine if you could out do what Shenmue did or even port something that people thought could never be ported to the gba or even better the gbc.

Quote:

It all boils down to gimmicks, back in the day when a game was advertised as 3D! people were eager to see it in action, but many of those doom clones had nada in the way of gameplay, which is usually a must for a best selling game.

The thing is 3d was new at the time and to do it good and great while being fun was the challenge. Then to use 3d correctly is the better challenge. Now there is no challenge.

There is many FPS besides DOOM. The main aproach of DOOM was to creep out the player while putting miles and miles of so called demonic
(which there is no such thing ) creatures. Also while 3d was new this was the style of DOOM. There has been many other FPS games besides DOOM.

The original game that started this trend was Dungeon Master I think.

Quote:

take a game like Wii Sports, my grandma, parents, and even some of my pre-WWII era teachers played it and enjoyed it. In the way of graphics this game doesn't stand a chance to anything else, even many games on the Wii beat it in that department.

Let me tell you something I would say SNES this and SNES that once upon a time in my life and the thing is hell no I was wrong. If I could go back in time I would stoo myself from getting into Pokemon and tell myself to wieght train instead.

Gues what those people you talking about is dying and is sef destructing like the people I had to serve in the resteraunt. They are only doing this out of Kindness and knows what a sport is. For crying out loud Sports you can play outside. This just helps keep you inside.

Look public school teachers are lost causes. When GTA was staring a italian person everybody was against it but when it is starring a black person the same teachers who cursed out videogames and even the same game is playing smiling because they are erasit monsters and not an Italian.

It's okay to be a bad black guy but never a bad white guy?

Quote:

Games like Red Steel achieved great lengths in the way of graphics on the Wii, especially for a release title. But go to your local new and used game store, and see how many used copies of Red Steel are gathering dust.

So now we are going to have a whole generation who is going to try and mug people Red Steal style. I could just see somebody holding up a store with a Wiimote and then trying to knock out the store manager at the same time.

Red Steel ( give me a break ) is terrible in graphics and while it does okay the characters are still deformed. The Graphics in Red Steel barely went threw a conversion of any sort.

I am sure Red Steel is lying in stacks somewhere gathering much dust like many games. You could use the most cheapest graphics in 2d or 3d and still have the greatest game ever made.

Like that vulkanon 2.0 shooter somebody here made. It is simple, easy, a challenge, and I would prefer this over any any Back To The Future System game.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

That post is very very long, but breaking barriers guarantees nothing. It might steal magazine spots, but that's it! Pokemon done nothing special technologically, and neither did Tony Hawks Pro Skater; it is the gameplay and culture that made them a success.

Quote:

The cartrige system was and is still better then any Disc system. Discs are just super cheap to produce and can store more for less. Also the cart is harder to break and will more likely survive a fall. In fact the battery system which could be in every cart is better then storing everything in one place and cost less there.

Anyone wanna go to the shop and see how many MegaDrive cartridges / cartridge drives don't work ^_^ And it's nice having saves with the game, but it's also nice to be able to sell your game and continue if you decide to buy it again, or use it on your friends machine. Raises your options, but you forget the negative of cost.

But what are you ranting on about?

Quote:

but breaking barriers guarantees nothing. It might steal magazine spots, but that's it! Pokemon done nothing special technologically, and neither did Tony Hawks Pro Skater; it is the gameplay and culture that made them a success.

Pokemon never broke any barriers it was a one hit wonder that could have been around for ages but then porky chorkies and Nintendo said lets build a cheap battery and then dump the original game.

If Pokemon did something great ( but not the first to have ) it was the most recognized monster battle system game on the face of the planet. While there was Digi-Mon, Meta-Bots, Robopon, Custom Robo, Robot Treck, and Power Bots there has been many of these games out there.
Pokemon was a good thing for the world of gaming that should have been put out of it's misery long time ago.

Tony Hawks Pro Skater just looks nice in graphics and they would promote the living daylights out of the games. The last good skating game was Skate Or Die. Tony Hawks Pro Skater was just a cheap attack at implusive buyers parents wallets. I never brought one of these games ever in my life
since I decided that sports is for body movement not sitting on the caboose keeping score.

About improvments the next NDS is probably going to celluar phone enabled without a WiFi Reciever and will allow video chat along with Hi-Rez pictures.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

Have you actually played Tony Hawks? It was popular because everyone played the magazine demo that let you play the game in two player on one of the best levels of the game! The timing of the movements and responses were perfect, which is why it was fun to play. The same can be said for all popular sports games, but you just seem like a person set on the retro era or something; sure skate or die was excellent but by no means is the greatest skate boarding game.

But again, what are you getting at?

RegalSin wrote:

So you are calling what took over two years from 1994 to make on the Saturn only to be ported to a system that could probably do ten times the amount of work barely using any power a cheap game and low budget?

Like Animal Crossing (for GameCube)?

Quote:

Anybody is allowed to make there own SNES and NES right now.

The Super NES patents have not expired. (FC Twin is still infringing in the United States and other countries with file+20 patent terms.) Neither have the copyrights on the code on the microcontrollers in the lockout chips. Unlike NES games, a few Super NES games (especially those that use the SA-1 coprocessor) require a working lockout chip in the console in order to enable ROM bankswitching.

Quote:

The cartrige system was and is still better then any Disc system. Discs are just super cheap to produce and can store more for less.

But if all the developers demand to store more for less, then the console maker relying on cartridges loses its dominance. This happened to Nintendo on Nintendo 64 but not on Nintendo DS. Why?

Quote:

The fact is that the majority of average gamers out there can't stand ugly graphics. But the N64... its got ugly 3D graphics and was sooo middle school.

The fact is a the majority of games out there is displeasing to the eye not only 2d games and most so called gamers will see more of the uglier games rather then the nook and cranny or what they should pay attention to.

"Nook" and cranny? Animal Crossing (for GameCube) sold well despite its N64-caliber graphics.

Quote:

So me, the average gamer, goes and spends a fortune on an XBox360 and buys up all those crappy games with "realistic" bouncing anime boobs

You just described the implusive buyer.

Impulsive buyers are the difference between profitable games and unprofitable games.

Quote:

The thing is 3d was new at the time and to do it good and great while being fun was the challenge. Then to use 3d correctly is the better challenge. Now there is no challenge.

Now the challenge is to do 3D correctly on a low budget. Without new tools, the assets for high-definition consoles take at least three times as much human time to get looking right.

Quote:

For crying out loud Sports you can play outside.

There is no Action Replay for life that changes the weather so that you can play outside during a thunderstorm.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

tepples wrote:

There is no Action Replay for life that changes the weather so that you can play outside during a thunderstorm.

Just because you don't have one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ^_^
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com

RegalSin wrote:

Quote:

Nintendo were the first to introduce it as a standard in a gaming console

The first at home system was the various pong ports and it was a illegal. Anybody from back then will tell you this.

The Magnavox odyssey was the first at home console that was legal.

This isn't what whoever meant at all, we all know many game systems came before the NES

RegalSin wrote:

All Nintnedo ever did was nothing but mass produce playing cards.

And love hotels xD

RegalSin wrote:

So you are calling what took over two years from 1994 to make on the Saturn only to be ported to a system that could probably do ten times the amount of work barely using any power a cheap game and low budget?

No, I was referring to the Xbox Live arcade games.

RegalSin wrote:

The thing is these new sapposive Back To The Future systems is cost effective and the technology is cheaper then rain water. Saying that a 2d game is low budget is a horrifically wrong thing. Back then the big thing was Animation and it cost alot of money to make.

Again, whats wrong with cost effective technology?
Also again, I was referring to the 2D games of the Xbox live arcade, although there are many amateur games out there for PC (not to mention homebrew) that are low budget or even no-budget.

RegalSin wrote:

Now everything is 3d made by people who could never draw for there lives. It is super cheaper then before. The fact I could recycle the same characters over and over again as many times as I want and is clearly is what they are doing now.

A great example is how HAL at Nintendo suddenly forgot Kirby flies in Kirby: Crystal Shards and instead gave us Super Smash Brothers Kirby and 2D view point that is slightly upgraded.

While I do agree that there are some games with terrible art, wasn't this also true back in the day? Remember the original SMB2? Where the small versions of characters were just horribly scaled down versions of the big ones with the big heads? Most of the games with now with terrible 3D art are games-of-the-kid-movie, or rushed & over-hyped ports or remakes for a best selling PC game. A good example of terrible NES graphics is http://www.mobygames.com/game/nes/cheetahmen-ii/

RegalSin wrote:

Quote:

high performance games for the system out there, much more of them that are available on the Xbox 360 arcade.

What? What is the diffrence with these games and other if they are High performance? What are the names of these so called HP titles? Is there a type of judge who says these games are HP?

I was just referring to games that make the full use of the systems hardware and HD capabilities, there isn't anything official that calls a game "High Performance"

RegalSin wrote:

Anybody is allowed to make there own SNES and NES right now. Also it is quite simple to maintain the SNES with only worrying when a specific part dies or blows if it does.

So if you heard about some guy coding and manufacturing his own NES cartridges in his basement, would you be inclined to buy them? Fair enough, you might. Heck, maybe I would too, but there are millions of other gamers in the world who would probably never hear about him, let alone plop down a $20 so he can actually make a profit.

RegalSin wrote:

The cartrige system was and is still better then any Disc system. Discs are just super cheap to produce and can store more for less. Also the cart is harder to break and will more likely survive a fall. In fact the battery system which could be in every cart is better then storing everything in one place and cost less there.

What the heck is wrong with something being cheaper and better? Also, do a little experiment. Drop a game cartridge from 2 stories on top of a piece of ply-wood. Do the same with a disc. Now pick up the cartridge and shake it a little to see if there are any rattling pieces of plastic that broke, next observe the CD to see if there are any visible cracks or scratches. Repeat if necessary, and even test the game out on a system.

RegalSin wrote:

The fact is a the majority of games out there is displeasing to the eye not only 2d games and most so called gamers will see more of the uglier games rather then the nook and cranny or what they should pay attention to. It is even harder to find the nook in the West especially with 2d games since the West promotes 3d games ideas like "Ohhh 3d on the Master System and NES was horrid "

My description of why N64 wasn't popular was that its obvious that the system has less power than consoles nowadays, and even some of the worst graphics on new consoles look better than the N64 ones. All these average people that I'm describing don't pay attention to too many details, just what it looks like at a glance. Countless times I've told people that Perfect Dark N64 has much more fun gameplay, but they still refuse to play because Perfect Dark Zero has smoother models, higher res textures, uses surround sound, and runs widescreen 1080i on their HDTV.

RegalSin wrote:

Wrong that is because people like me grew up or was living with these things in our lives. They are as common as picking up my favorite food group or movie. More importantly things never really changed after 1985 in our world in terms of entertainment and technology. Everything just took a diffrent form like Car for example never really changed.

I was again referring to the average teenage gamer.

RegalSin wrote:

About realistic Animated Nipples the Saturn, SNES, and PSX did that great.

Uhh... Examples?

RegalSin wrote:

Nintendo only did it since it was costing them more to get the parts for the GCN then sell them. Sony was dew for an upgrade but never needed one. Microsoft only did it fearing the PS3 would grab it's spot with 3d power.
People are dumb as the implusive buyer never thinking about how much it will be worth once they get a hold of it.

There you just found the crux of our whole discussion here.
The average gamer is an unintelligent, horny teenage kid, running around with his parents credit card ready to buy anything that has guns, explosions, girls in skimpy bikinis, and supposedly has the best graphics technology. (yes this is an exaggeration) This is the reason companies upgrade their systems; the average buyer.

RegalSin wrote:

There is many FPS besides DOOM. The main aproach of DOOM was to creep out the player while putting miles and miles of so called demonic
(which there is no such thing ) creatures. Also while 3d was new this was the style of DOOM. There has been many other FPS games besides DOOM.

I am aware that there are many more FPS titles that came before and after Doom, I merely used it as an example.
Although many people impulsively bought Doom because of what you refer to, it continued in popularity because of John Carmack's genius. He was and excellent programmer for the PC, so therefore the Doom engine could run on a large part of the systems that were around at the time. He also does wonders with gameplay, another reason the original Doom games are played online to this day. Id software as a whole was one of the best things for PC gaming back in its day, if not the single best thing for online PC gaming today. They spawned the modding community, and even some sucessful modern game companies (Valve, for one)

RegalSin wrote:

demonic (which there is no such thing )

An agnostic eh? Well thats another debate entirely, and one most likely not suited to these forums, even the off topic section.
Tell me then, why is the word 'sin' in your screen name when I'm guessing you don't believe that there is such a thing?

RegalSin wrote:

Gues what those people you talking about is dying and is sef destructing like the people I had to serve in the resteraunt. They are only doing this out of Kindness and knows what a sport is. For crying out loud Sports you can play outside. This just helps keep you inside.

First of all my parents aren't dying thank you very much, second of all my 70 year old calculus teacher has no kindness in his heart at all for his students, and its not hard to tell whether they're just saying it because they want to please me or they genuinely like playing it. Wii Sports is no replacement for the real thing, that being said its still just plain fun, without all the equipment, sweat, and skill needed to have fun playing the real sport.

RegalSin wrote:

Pokemon never broke any barriers it was a one hit wonder

What else is a game franchise but a one hit wonder? Plus, since it was published by Nintendo I'd hardly call it their only hit.

I played the Tony hawk game and it looked really great for a game on PSX at the time. Personally what comes to my mind is Skate Or Die and people who skate all the time like people who play golf all the time. I never had any intrest in the game itself.

Animal Crossing is a N64 game.

Quote:

But if all the developers demand to store more for less, then the console maker relying on cartridges loses its dominance. This happened to Nintendo on Nintendo 64 but not on Nintendo DS. Why?

Nobody demanded anything it was just cheaper to use discs. The NDS is still a gameboy and carrying around a disc in your hands is stupid. Just look at the thingys PSP games come with.

Also with carts you could install 3d accellerator chips. Do you think people would put up with buying more save batteries but now for pocket?

Again the cart system use flash which is fast enough to load while being still. If you check the prices out Solid HD cost thousands of dollars compared to standard record moving HD we have in our PC's.

Lastly Nintendo only switched over to the disc system since it was starting to cost more to produce carts then sell them.

Quote:

"Nook" and cranny? Animal Crossing (for GameCube) sold well despite its N64-caliber graphics.

You standards is way to high and you have been playing Back to the Future too many times. Sit down and break open a can of Starfox, VerTrix, Sega Saturn, or even better 32X. I rather not look into the looking glass anymore. The GameCube was and is good enough for me.

A great example is that Virtua Fighter is just Fighter and the whole game never changed one bit. You could play the 32X game and it would be just as good as the VF4 on PS3. The Saturn game is perfect to it's PS3 counter part.

Quote:

Impulsive buyers are the difference between profitable games and unprofitable games.

Anything that is out there on the selves is profitable period.

There is billions of games that was canceled or will never be seen by certain countries eyes or outside of certain organizations.

A great example is the Battle Ship senario that was featured in a James Bond Movie and the more you lose the more current of juice would run threw your body that could spell death to the loser.

Profitable yeah right more like throwing cheap corn on the cob to the pigs.

Quote:

Now the challenge is to do 3D correctly on a low budget. Without new tools, the assets for high-definition consoles take at least three times as much human time to get looking right.

There is no challenge anymore and what that is what has been done. The without new tools part is false since a program is a tool and programmers soemtimes have to create there own tools to get something doen right.

What does HD have to do with making a Videogame. Those are just fancy words. You do not need to use entire resources to make a game. You just need to know how to program, have a little music and art talent, and be able to make a convincing script.

In fact the game industry is going backwards with 3d games. There is more 2d based games on the rise.

Quote:

Plus, since it was published by Nintendo I'd hardly call it their only hit.

It was still a one hit wonder regaurdless who published it. I heard about it from reading Nintendo Power and already knew about it before the TV show which gave rise to the Pikachu rage.

by One Hit I meant that all that was ever was needed was the original game. That game could have been around forever.

Quote:

An agnostic eh? Well thats another debate entirely, and one most likely not suited to these forums, even the off topic section.
Tell me then, why is the word 'sin' in your screen name when I'm guessing you don't believe that there is such a thing?

I believe in god but I am not a sheep nore I am a follower and that has nothing to do with my comment.

In terms of Doom which the game itself is hitting at peoples basic fears as which most FPS will aim at. the first thing that comes to my mind when I see doom or even play it is towards the idea of demonic which I have proven to be false.

While I could go into more I am not and that is entirely diffrent topics.

Quote:

This is the reason companies upgrade their systems; the average buyer.

Well yeah the average implusive buyer but they could still make games for there earlier systems and it all would be the same. We could start making some games now for the Saturn and other would and will follow.

Quote:

Uhh... Examples?

SNES-There was plenty of 2d fighting games that featured bouncy boobs. Along with nany girl only games that had chest momentum action. There is
a really big list and I am not going threw my files.

PSX- had chests that was breeding in and out. Kasumi from Dead or Alive off course as well as many others. Alot more in Japan then the west obviously.

Saturn- had a wide variety of 3d game girls with realistic chest areas that moved realisticly. Many in Japan.

The thing is I am not going to do a world search for this and there could have been more but then again these kinds of things was all over PC back then.

Quote:

My description of why N64 wasn't popular was that its obvious that the system has less power than consoles nowadays, and even some of the worst graphics on new consoles look better than the N64 ones.

The N64 had many great titles in the east compared to the west. We just got the leftovers.

Quote:

All these average people that I'm describing don't pay attention to too many details, just what it looks like at a glance. Countless times I've told people that Perfect Dark N64 has much more fun gameplay, but they still refuse to play because Perfect Dark Zero has smoother models, higher res textures, uses surround sound, and runs widescreen 1080i on their HDTV.

The fact that people have been playing these so called Back To The Future Systems forever they will think differ and then again it depends on your audience. Some people could careless about what was and just care about what is now. You need to get there attention first.

Zero is not Perfect Dark at all. With al those features it is still not Perfect Dark.

Quote:

do a little experiment

Why don't you do it yourself. About just fling it fast from a high place and see which one survives.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

RegalSin wrote:

Quote:

But if all the developers demand to store more for less, then the console maker relying on cartridges loses its dominance. This happened to Nintendo on Nintendo 64 but not on Nintendo DS. Why?

Nobody demanded anything it was just cheaper to use discs.

Actually, Final Fantasy VII was on PSX and not N64 because the cartridge format of the N64 didn't have enough space to hold the game in its entirety [source].
_________________
http://chishm.drunkencoders.com
http://dldi.drunkencoders.com

Actually, Final Fantasy VII was on PSX and not N64 because the cartridge format of the N64 didn't have enough space to hold the game in its entirety [source].[/quote]

No Final Fantasy VII was on the PSX instead of the N64 the fact they wanted to use FMV scenes which practically an entire disc. Then when they wanted to load the sound and sprite data but they would have to reprint the same data to all three discs.

It is like having three of the same discs with FMV taking up most of the room and the true game data is a small portion of the disc.

This would be a really great project to work on. We just need to remove the load disc and replace the FMV with real 3d and maybe use an alternative media format.

All PSX Final Fantasy games could have been on the N64 with proper care but they never went to that extreme and decided video was better over the true graphics of the system.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.

But what is the constant rant about?

RegalSin wrote:

Well yeah the average implusive buyer but they could still make games for there earlier systems and it all would be the same. We could start making some games now for the Saturn and other would and will follow.

Well no, because people are less likely to buy it. Although you may have a lovely game on an old system, it has to compete with everything newer looking and gamers just won't give it a chance.

RegalSin wrote:

PSX- had chests that was breeding in and out. Kasumi from Dead or Alive off course as well as many others. Alot more in Japan then the west obviously.

I think Rival Schools would be one of them.

RegalSin wrote:

Zero is not Perfect Dark at all. With al those features it is still not Perfect Dark.

Very true, in fact you only need to play TimeSplitters, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark to see where all the team went to ^_^

Still can't get what is being ranted about though! Just seems like a constant babbling about how horrible things are with improved graphics and technology.

You seem to think less powerful systems are better because when you make a nice-looking game on very limited hardware, it's a challenge to code and people say "wow, you did that on such weak hardware?" whereas with powerful systems it's easy to pull off the same effects and people say "what, all this powerful hardware and that's the best you can do?". You're thinking from a coder's point of view, not a game designer's. Why don't you code for some older systems yourself?

When someone has an idea for a game they want the final product to be as close to their idea as possible. Take for example Super Mario 64. On the N64, it's not pushing the hardware to its limits. It's not impressive from a technical standpoint at all. But it's a damn fun game. If it had been for the SNES, it would have been amazing that they pulled it off, but I doubt the game would have looked as nice or been nearly as fun, and the cartridges would have undoubtedly been more expensive.

To make a long story short you seem to want people to say "wow, look what this guy did with such weak hardware", while most people want people to say "wow, look how fun this game is". Otherwise, I suspect a lot of Nintendo's games would have had better graphics. ;) I suggest you get into coding for the Game Boy or Super NES. Game Boy is a weak system but its nice design lets you really push the hardware far beyond what people would think was possible. Super NES is surprisingly powerful for its age, and you can use the nice things like Mode7 and tile priority to pull off amazing effects. (Not to mention with homebrew, you don't have to worry about the manufacturing cost if you want to add in an SA-1 or use a 6MB ROM. :p)
_________________
I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.

HyperHacker wrote:

You seem to think less powerful systems are better because when you make a nice-looking game on very limited hardware, it's a challenge to code and people say "wow, you did that on such weak hardware?" whereas with powerful systems it's easy to pull off the same effects and people say "what, all this powerful hardware and that's the best you can do?". You're thinking from a coder's point of view, not a game designer's. Why don't you code for some older systems yourself?

Because there aren't any NES flash cards comparable to SuperCard. (Yet.)

Quote:

If [Super Mario 64] had been for the SNES, it would have been amazing that they pulled it off, but I doubt the game would have looked as nice or been nearly as fun, and the cartridges would have undoubtedly been more expensive.

Super Mario 64 for Super NES would have run on something like the Super Mario RPG engine.

Quote:

(Not to mention with homebrew, you don't have to worry about the manufacturing cost if you want to add in an SA-1 or use a 6MB ROM. :p)

Until you get to people like Michel Iwaniec (aka "Bananmos"), who thinks that NES development isn't NES development unless you're running it on an NES. You might as well code for the Allegro library instead.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

tepples wrote:

HyperHacker wrote:

You seem to think less powerful systems are better because when you make a nice-looking game on very limited hardware, it's a challenge to code and people say "wow, you did that on such weak hardware?" whereas with powerful systems it's easy to pull off the same effects and people say "what, all this powerful hardware and that's the best you can do?". You're thinking from a coder's point of view, not a game designer's. Why don't you code for some older systems yourself?

Because there aren't any NES flash cards comparable to SuperCard. (Yet.)

Quote:

If [Super Mario 64] had been for the SNES, it would have been amazing that they pulled it off, but I doubt the game would have looked as nice or been nearly as fun, and the cartridges would have undoubtedly been more expensive.

Super Mario 64 for Super NES would have run on something like the Super Mario RPG engine.

Quote:

(Not to mention with homebrew, you don't have to worry about the manufacturing cost if you want to add in an SA-1 or use a 6MB ROM. :p)

Until you get to people like Michel Iwaniec (aka "Bananmos"), who thinks that NES development isn't NES development unless you're running it on an NES. You might as well code for the Allegro library instead.

It will run on a NES emulator on computer and also on GBA/NDS as well.

The new game console system that I am in the process of making you can also put a NES emulator on a DVD and it works on the TV similar to how NES/Famicom does.
_________________
Important: Please send messages about FWNITRO to the public forum, not privately to me.

tepples wrote:

Quote:

If [Super Mario 64] had been for the SNES, it would have been amazing that they pulled it off, but I doubt the game would have looked as nice or been nearly as fun, and the cartridges would have undoubtedly been more expensive.

Super Mario 64 for Super NES would have run on something like the Super Mario RPG engine.

Or via a SuperFX chip!

zzo38computer wrote:

tepples wrote:

Until you get to people like Michel Iwaniec (aka "Bananmos"), who thinks that NES development isn't NES development unless you're running it on an NES. You might as well code for the Allegro library instead.

It will run on a NES emulator on computer and also on GBA/NDS as well.

Bananmos' reply would look like the following: "If you just want to run it on PC/GBA/NDS, then you might as well make it for PC/GBA/NDS. The coding will be easier. I'm sick and tired of files passed off as 'NES ROMs' that only work in Nesticle."

Quote:

The new game console system that I am in the process of making you can also put a NES emulator on a DVD and it works on the TV similar to how NES/Famicom does.

A few portable DVD players include NES emulators that have very low compatibility: they're good enough to run a few commercial games, but that's about it. I once tried writing a book reader for NES, but the emulator that the requestor tried to run it on didn't like the mid-screen VRAM bankswitching required to fill a screen with text.

Does your console's NES emulator emulate the color artifacts of NTSC, which the graphics in games such as Blaster Master depended on to create a richer palette than the NES's own 4 colors per tile? That might be hard to do unless your console allows for creating a non-standard composite or S-video signal using 227.333 color subcarrier periods per line rather than 227.5, or unless it has a component output to allow programs such as Nestopia to emulate the NTSC artifacts in software.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

But do you get NTSC artifacts in PAL? And though Banamas does have a point about it not being for the NES if it is only targetting compatability with Nessie (or Nesticle); but for the coder they still learn to develop for a hardware limited system.

tepples wrote:

.....
Bananmos' reply would look like the following: "If you just want to run it on PC/GBA/NDS, then you might as well make it for PC/GBA/NDS. The coding will be easier. I'm sick and tired of files passed off as 'NES ROMs' that only work in Nesticle."

I'm also sick and tired of files passed off as 'NES ROMs' that only work in Nesticle. Almost any other emulator works better. You could, of course, write for GBA instead, because GBA will also run on PC/GBA/NDS. You don't have to though (it is easier just to write a program on PC).

[quote=tepples].....
A few portable DVD players include NES emulators that have very low compatibility: they're good enough to run a few commercial games, but that's about it. I once tried writing a book reader for NES, but the emulator that the requestor tried to run it on didn't like the mid-screen VRAM bankswitching required to fill a screen with text.

Does your console's NES emulator emulate the color artifacts of NTSC, which the graphics in games such as Blaster Master depended on to create a richer palette than the NES's own 4 colors per tile? That might be hard to do unless your console allows for creating a non-standard composite or S-video signal using 227.333 color subcarrier periods per line rather than 227.5, or unless it has a component output to allow programs such as Nestopia to emulate the NTSC artifacts in software.[/quote]

Which portable DVD players have NES emulators?

I don't know a lot about color artifacts in NTSC, but this game console system is still in the process of being created! (Eventually I will create a message board to discuss things about this new game console system. Part of it will be private until finished. If you want access to the private section (including some files that I already have) you must tell me sometime). (I am still waiting for a shipment from China!)

My console can use an NES emulator loaded from a DVD or USB (if the DVD/USB contains a file indicating how to start), or if a NES emulator is installed into the internal programs menu, then you can use the file manager to load *.NES files. Software written for this console will be similar to standard Linux software, so it can be compiled with GCC or similar, although the source code will still need to be modified to work with this console system (if it isn't written specifically for this console system, it probably just won't run at all). An open-source NES emulator for Linux will probably be ported to this system.
_________________
Important: Please send messages about FWNITRO to the public forum, not privately to me.

mmcx connector for external wifi antena.

tepples wrote:

Are you claiming that the PC is atypical? I can add the Apple II, C64, Spectrum, and Macintosh platforms, which flourished for a period "despite" their openness.

Are you saying windows is 'Open' or it has a wide gap for development because of SDKs

Nintendo DS is a console, meaning it uses its own hardware, SOFTWARE/FIRMWARE and EVERYTHING IS ITS OWN.

Nintendo DS is NOT comparable to a Windows. One is a OS, the other, is a Console/firmware unit. One is a piece of software compatible to many systems, the other, is closed up and based on only its own hardware.

The DS doesnt use data storage devices openly availible and editable. They are manufactured with factory equipment, not card readers with PCs.

The DS isnt a OS, which is why it doesnt offer open development of software. However, if we all paid an extra 100$ whenn we bought our DS, and we got a dummy card, a card reader, and a SDK? Would it worth it,

Ask yourself this, and you'll know.

the Gains for Nintendo. Doesnt need to License its software etc. and just can watch people make free and proprietary software (However, wouldnt this oxymoron that trial that saved Nintendo's ass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys%2C_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America%2C_Inc.

This is a limited market due to the DS's Limited power.

The Losses, No Licensing money, no control of the market, they have total control over how things sell, prices are almost ALWAYS the same, they have all games licensed, meaning if they dont prefer of it getting on the DS, it doesnt have to go through.

[/url]
_________________
laos,
In charge of Storyline: Tales of Dagur 2

tepples wrote:

Introducing Nintendo Twist.

Clamshell case, like GBA SP. Top half contains a 480x272 pixel (PSP size) touch screen. Screen of open unit can be rotated by 90 degrees to form a vertical 272x480 pixel screen, or left in place for Brain Age. Additional controls include pressure-sensitive Control Pad for precise analog style control and a built-in accelerometer.

Mock-up

TWIST MAY BE REAL

someone else's mockup: http://www.nintendo-master.com/fichiers/N-1185275150.jpg

Nintendo is expected to announce a new handheld that uses the Tegra chipset: http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=7876
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Interesting, if true:
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/10/13/nvidia-tegra-wins-contract-for-next-gen-nintendo-ds.aspx

Ahh, tepples beat me to it :)

I wonder if it is not almost the perfect time to invest in NVIDIA...

gbadev.org forum archive

OffTopic > DS2 Wishlist

#124852 - binarystar - Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:20 am

#124857 - tepples - Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:20 am

#124858 - DragonMinded - Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:21 am

#124860 - binarystar - Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:52 am

#124861 - wintermute - Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:10 am

#124863 - keldon - Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:07 am

#124867 - spinal_cord - Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:09 am

#124872 - tepples - Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:19 pm

#124874 - keldon - Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:22 pm

#124876 - tepples - Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:54 pm

#124879 - keldon - Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:34 pm

#124883 - Abscissa - Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:49 pm

#124887 - gauauu - Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:30 pm

#124890 - keldon - Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:16 pm

#124901 - HyperHacker - Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:06 pm

#124913 - Lynx - Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:20 pm

#124917 - tepples - Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:16 pm

#124921 - Abscissa - Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:39 am

#124947 - binarystar - Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:14 am

#124948 - keldon - Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:22 am

#124950 - binarystar - Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:40 am

#124951 - keldon - Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:11 am

#124958 - binarystar - Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:22 am

#124968 - binarystar - Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:55 pm

#124974 - Lynx - Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:32 pm

#124975 - keldon - Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:37 pm

#124984 - tepples - Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:48 pm

#124996 - Lynx - Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:01 pm

#125057 - HyperHacker - Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:39 am

#125070 - dantheman - Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:40 am

#125077 - chishm - Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:15 am

#125086 - binarystar - Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:59 am

#125095 - kusma - Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:00 am

#125120 - Lynx - Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:28 pm

#125128 - Abscissa - Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:02 pm

#125132 - kusma - Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:40 pm

#125134 - Ant6n - Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:52 pm

#125147 - gauauu - Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:25 pm

#125153 - HyperHacker - Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:56 pm

#125160 - Abscissa - Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:49 pm

#125169 - Lynx - Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:00 pm

#125194 - chishm - Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:26 am

#125200 - Miked0801 - Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:50 am

#125207 - binarystar - Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:46 am

#125219 - Abscissa - Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:40 am

#125236 - HyperHacker - Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:29 am

#125240 - kusma - Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:53 am

#125273 - Lynx - Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:25 pm

#125282 - tepples - Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:35 pm

#125294 - dantheman - Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:12 pm

#125308 - Abscissa - Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:48 pm

#125309 - tepples - Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:50 pm

#125341 - Miked0801 - Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:49 pm

#125361 - tepples - Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:58 pm

#125382 - kusma - Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:44 pm

#125386 - Miked0801 - Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:17 am

#125397 - chishm - Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:21 am

#125410 - HyperHacker - Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:37 am

#125453 - binarystar - Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:32 pm

#125483 - HyperHacker - Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:11 pm

#125510 - binarystar - Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:45 am

#125520 - Ant6n - Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:40 am

#125521 - tepples - Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:17 am

#125530 - zzo38computer - Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:51 am

#125532 - Lynx - Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:34 am

#125541 - Lick - Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:30 am

#125542 - keldon - Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:38 am

#125547 - binarystar - Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:51 am

#125553 - keldon - Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:06 pm

#125557 - binarystar - Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:29 pm

#125558 - zzo38computer - Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:01 pm

#125563 - keldon - Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:47 pm

#125578 - HyperHacker - Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:39 pm

#125579 - tepples - Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:45 pm

#125580 - zzo38computer - Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:50 pm

#125599 - Ant6n - Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:02 am

#125602 - Lick - Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:16 am

#125604 - keldon - Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:27 am