#129505 - simonjhall - Wed May 23, 2007 10:11 am
So I've nearly finished Quake and I'm a-wondering what to do next with my DS - if anything at all.
Y'see I'm wondering if I should bother finishing Quake2 after Lynx made that thread about DS development being thankless - he's totally right, and you should really only do it for your own enjoyment. Spending hundreds of hours writing something just to have some kid email telling you he's dissatisfied with some part of the game you spent a lot of time making playable doesn't sound like enjoyment to me! Although these few comments are outweighed by many many more people who have said thanks (so I'm not too bothered by that).
But more importantly, for those who have done ports know that it takes a lot of time and endlessly reverse-engineering code is a slow process. Plus I'm a (console) games programmer 9-5 anyway and programming 12+ hours a day can get pretty horrific and takes its toll on you! I looked like a zombie for 10 weeks from pre1->pre2; definately not enjoyable!
On the flip side, I'd love to see Q2 running as well as Q1 does. I just don't know if it's worth six months of going to bed at 1am every day... (however I'd know exactly what I'm doing this time!)
This doesn't mean that Q1 ain't gonna be finished, it's just that I'm unsure about Q2.
And if I don't do that, what AM I gonna do with my DS? I did really consider doing that N64 emulator, but it'll NEVER run at decent framerates...so is it worth the effort? I was also thinking about writing a proper video player (think mpeg etc)...but I'm not sure if the DS has enough computational grunt to make it worthwhile... Plus then there's that ad-hoc lark...
I'm kinda stumped - I can't be the only person who has faced this decision before ;-)
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Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#129513 - jester - Wed May 23, 2007 10:55 am
hmm dont quit just yet simonjhall their are many projects yet to do and also since you have ported Quake to the DS other will respect you!
I respect you and your in my Top 5 most influential DS Homebrew Makers:
1.Lynx
2.SimonjHall
3.DragonMinded
4.Costello
5. HtheB
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#129516 - Optihut - Wed May 23, 2007 11:32 am
If you feel burnt out, then I'd definitely take a break at the very least. The politics and trench fights that go on inside of the forum and on IRC don't interest me, for the most part I try to stay clear of those.
As for the point of negativity - I can empathize with that, as I recently left a forum, because a few demagogues poisoned the atmosphere there and I realized that my time is better spent elsewhere. Glad to hear that negative voices are in the minority for you at least.
#129519 - PeterM - Wed May 23, 2007 11:59 am
The problem with homebrew is that the ratio of decent guys to kids/idiots is horribly low.
If it helps, the PSP "scene" is worse. It's just flooded with kiddies after ROMs and warez, and all the lua "coders" making 2D Zelda/FF/CS clones. They can fuck right off!
We even had a guy releasing a CS mod of Quake, not crediting us, not releasing his GPL source, and even including the full Quake data files with their port. What boundless ignorance.
But like the Murphy's...
That's why I'm switching to Wii/GameCube. That's already flooded with warez kids too. So sad.
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#129522 - kusma - Wed May 23, 2007 1:46 pm
Simon: If you're doing this to get respect in the community, I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons. The internet is the internet, it'll always be a network of clueless fuckwads trolling around, with the occasional OK guy popping by every now and then. When it comes to pressure from the community for releases, I think the answer is even simpler: just don't promise anything. State your intentions and progress, sure, fine. But stress that it's a project you're working on whenever you feel like it.
You shouldn't do this as a community-service, but to satisfy yourself. Even doing releases can be looked upon as an ego-thing; exposing your work. And I think this is a healthy point of view. You won't tire yourself to death that way.
#129530 - RegalSin - Wed May 23, 2007 3:46 pm
Do what yo u got to do but do it for yourself. If what you are doing is getting to you take a break. Even the greatest of minds sleep.
Personally the only that never sleeps is evil and you don't want to be now do you?
I myself is looking for respect but not from my written works but threw my art. My dream is to be respected as one of the greats and have my works posted all over walls....and even Desktop backgrounds and people collect my
works in art books and figures.
The thing is people is allways going to be jerks in life and your going encounter them in all sorts of forms and shapes. Don't let them get to you.
Just think about you and take care of you but most importantly do not forget about your cherished ones.
I know what you mean. I also know how it is especially when you do somebody elses work it kinda gets to you that it is not your creation but hey then again it is something.
Personally I came here with my porting idea also ( which I will start once I pick my head up get some work on paper done ) and when I get the chance I am going to do it but programming is not my gig and the game is not my game so I put myself first not anybody else besides my cherished ones.
Just don't let it get to you. I already gave a name to my own demons and I know what I must do to accomplish my mission even if it might be in vain ( which I am praying it is not ) but at the same time I not going to burn up on re entrey.
Do what is best for you.
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#129539 - Lick - Wed May 23, 2007 4:46 pm
I actually "quit" the scene already. I'm not finding any new motivation to create software and the only thing I'm doing right now is answering easy questions on this forum and experiment a bit with the hardware.
The target-usergroup is SO small that it's not even about thankfullness, it's just that I get the impression only a handful (or: relatively small amount) of people are going to use my work. Why waste so much effort on it then? Talking about weEEeks of work here.
DSLiveWeather has probably had at least 1000 unique users, by the way.
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#129540 - silent_code - Wed May 23, 2007 5:09 pm
simon, you should definitely take a long enough break. the time you won't be able to resist coding quake 2 will be the right time to resume. if that time never comes - whatever!? i mean we're talking about *your live*. sure, i'd love to play q2 on nds, it's the only game i ever played like a 1000 times trough! but if someone else has to pay for my enjoyment, i'd rather not play it.
creating software (like q2) just for yourself is pointless, so you'd do it to share it with the community. i think you're already a scene legend, so even more respect is not needed. :^)
man, i totally know how you feel like. unfortunately this is a decision you have to do for yourself. anyway, you could come back whenever you like. :^)
#129549 - Dood77 - Wed May 23, 2007 6:24 pm
Aack! Don't leave! This of course is what I want, and like what everyone else said, do what you want. And as for the Q2 thing, I only think it would work out (without you ripping your hair out) if you got together a team to help you. Even then it would be difficult. Its true, there are a whole ton of negative voices out there, but thats just because they're all ignorant to everything in the development process. Critics come by the butt load, and the majority of them take any chance they get at, well, criticizing. The only thing you can get out of flaming out the ignorant, self-serving kiddies is stress. I guess the only thing you can do is have a prewritten reply to any such emails you might get.
And as for this being a thankless community... everyone's pretty much right. It's small, and mostly full of pirates. It's not fair that your work should be compared to the commercial games and apps. There are those of us who do appreciate the time spent on, basically, gifts. Thats what they are, is gifts for everyone to take. People don't realize this though, they think it's your job, your only goal in life.
But yeah, not too much we can do to change that. My suggestions though... Take a break first of all. Then (people might hate you for this) DON'T attempt Q2. It would take forever, there would be stress involved in coding the beast, not to mention the aforementioned kiddies asking "are we there yet?!?!?" Also, I fear that an N64 emulator would draw more flaming emails into your inbox... What I think would maybe be the least painful, and actually probably the most thankful, would be an ad-hoc lib. Blah, blah I know nothing of network coding blah... But it wouldn't just help Quake, but anyone else wanting to do any ad-hoc business. (File transfer plug-in for DSO anyone?) But, again, do what the hell ever you want to.
And if I ever seem ungrateful in the least for whatever you've done, don't. The possibility of a Quake port is the main reason I got my Supercard. When I found that the first announced one was pretty much dead, I was disheartened. But then your first 'Quake, yeah' post gave me hope. (Geez I sound sappy don't I?) But yeah, morale of the story is I appreciate your work.
P.S. If you do end up quitting DS programming entirely, you should consider jumping on the Wii bandwagon once it starts rolling ;) (I'd still test for you :P)
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129574 - tepples - Wed May 23, 2007 9:32 pm
| simonjhall wrote: |
| And if I don't do [Quake II], what AM I gonna do with my DS? I did really consider doing that N64 emulator, but it'll NEVER run at decent framerates...so is it worth the effort? |
It might be better to try implementing the DSP-1 coprocessor into SNEmulDS first. That, and an ad-hoc lib so that developers can add multiplayer without users having to carry around a 12VDC powered access point.
| simonjhall wrote: |
| I was also thinking about writing a proper video player (think mpeg etc)...but I'm not sure if the DS has enough computational grunt to make it worthwhile |
I seem to remember a software MPEG video player that ran on a 75 MHz Power Mac.
| PeterM wrote: |
| It's just flooded with kiddies after ROMs and warez |
I agree, they can fuck right off.
| PeterM wrote: |
| and all the lua "coders" making 2D Zelda/FF/CS clones. They can fuck right off! |
I disagree. Coding in Lua is no worthier of disrespect than coding a web game in JavaScript.
| PeterM wrote: |
| That's why I'm switching to Wii/GameCube. |
The different variations of SD Loader (specifically the old long-ass AR code vs. the new Datel boot disc) might give you a hard time.
_________________
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129579 - Lynx - Wed May 23, 2007 9:56 pm
| simonjhall wrote: |
I'm kinda stumped - I can't be the only person who has faced this decision before ;-) |
Your right there.. At least you have something to leave behind. If I left tomorrow, most people would probably be happy, and any newcomers would never know I was here. Hopefully this next project will change that.. and it's being designed to "maintain" itself.. :)
Anyway, I'd suggest you just take a small break, breath a little, and when you get that itch to come back.. do it.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#129585 - simonjhall - Wed May 23, 2007 11:41 pm
I think there's a lot of good material here on this page :-)
Yeah I think maybe a break couldn't hurt. Somehow I need to wangle a complete break from programming...but being a programmer during the daytime makes this a bit of an arse!
If I was to code something, I'd like to make it small/medium size, but coded completely from scratch by me. I think Lick's got the right idea by writing these small but pretty useful bits of code, for everyone to use.
I'm pretty sure that I will be back on Q2 at some point though, as I know I could make the game playable after just a couple of weeks of hard work... A team of people doing it would be pretty useful, once it reaches a certain point, however the first half looks like a solo-coder effort ;-)
And for those randoms who are reading this, no an N64 emulator isn't gonna come of this. I gotta agree with Dood77 here - supporting a thing like that would be horrific!
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#129590 - Lazy1 - Thu May 24, 2007 12:27 am
The one thing I have noticed is that if you work on a project long enough you will eventually get tired/bored of it and risk dropping it completely.
I don't find DS development thankless either, if you really enjoy working on something and even one person appreciates it I find that is all the reason needed to continue.
I get a lot of comments every now and then saying how a Macintosh emulator is pointless or how (blah) can do (this) or (that) better but honestly, who gives a shit?
Just write stuff for yourself, if people happen to like it that's fine but don't back down to negative assholes who give nothing back anyway.
As for the N64 emulator, look at it this way.
If you really want to code it and think it would be a fun project then go ahead, I ported Mini vMac knowing it will never get full speed and I am very happy I did.
If it would be just to shut people up and be loads of frustrating technical problems that will just eat up time, then don't bother.
#129607 - PeterM - Thu May 24, 2007 7:26 am
| tepples wrote: |
| I disagree. Coding in Lua is no worthier of disrespect than coding a web game in JavaScript. |
Absolutely. If the game is any good, well done to them. And I'm not such a language snob that I don't believe anything good can be programmed in lua (we use it in work to great effect). But most PSP lua games are awful, leading to the decent stuff getting lost in the noise.
| tepples wrote: |
| The different variations of SD Loader (specifically the old long-ass AR code vs. the new Datel boot disc) might give you a hard time. |
Indeed. The old version of AR is hard to find in the UK, so I'm forced to go the SD Media Launcher + SDLoad.dol route. It's not too bad once it's working, but I'm still wrestling with compiler issues. But that's OT...
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#129608 - shen3 - Thu May 24, 2007 8:22 am
You could try painting, it is a lot faster, and way more accessable. If you need to keep it in the computer arena you can paint video game close ups, which is what I started out doing.
Painting lets you get feedback from friends and family and coworkers, so I found it to be very rewarding from the social aspect.
Another thing I considered was writing, but writing a book seemed like it would be similar amounts of work to writing a game. Plus then you need to worry about getting it out to people, having it published etc.
Another creative thing would be music of some sort, I don't have much skill in that direction though.
Shen
#129610 - jester - Thu May 24, 2007 8:55 am
The DS Dev scene realises when a good game has been created like look at MegaETk for example!!
You deserve a break SimonJhall and a long one at that, but remember the door is always open for your return and trust me the community will be their waiting for you.
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#129612 - shen3 - Thu May 24, 2007 9:12 am
If you want to stay doing ds stuff, but take a break from programming you could have a look at the homebrew games that are coming out for ds, give them all a good play, and write up some feedback for the author.
It is always nice getting feedback and constructive criticism from a fellow developer, giving a bunch of it could be a good way of making the ds scene a happier place, without having to code.
Shen
#129625 - tepples - Thu May 24, 2007 1:17 pm
| shen3 wrote: |
| Another creative thing would be music of some sort |
Until you get sued for accidentally copying a song that you had heard on the radio a decade ago into your own song.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#129663 - RegalSin - Thu May 24, 2007 8:25 pm
The great thing about having Qauke on the NDS would be to use the Qauke packages.
You could put it up on a website for download and people could give you paypal payment towards donating towards your work.
Then again he could setup camp at some kinda expo showing your Qauke port to gain intrest of higher people.
Maybe the Quake port does not have to be a port but a Quake look alike and allows you to use skins and build your own Quake/Doom/Wolfeinstien levels.
People could run around all day long with there favorite 2d raised sprite in a highly advance 3d map. It could be something like "Shining The Holy Ark" or "Dragon Quest VII" where there is many 2d sprites used for a a 3d shoot out.
_________________
Graphics Design Major currently enrolled in CUNY for a start in art world. A figure artist who can create people, babies, Aliens, animals, cowboys, beasties, warriors, cyborgs, monsters. I am limited by tools, refrence materials that is provided.
#129669 - simonjhall - Thu May 24, 2007 10:04 pm
Err...I may have misunderstood your message a bit...
You know that Quake has been ported, right? There is a website where people can download it, and there's a paypal donations page - it's in my sig! Plus you can already play (to some degree) 'packages', ie mods and total conversions.
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#129679 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 11:20 pm
I think maybe he was getting at you making Quake mods specifically on the DS, and selling them... and then something about other people's mods...?
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129702 - silent_code - Fri May 25, 2007 11:09 am
just don't think about it anymore. i guess he misunderstood you - totally. ;^)
and he apparently doesn't know you're already working as a (console) games programmer in real life and you don't need to convince anyone to "get into the industry" anymore. ;^p and he's obviously omitting the fact, that you've already made quake playable - and available to everyone. poor soul. ;^P
simon, you're right, it's all about ignorance, but don't let it through to you. we're still there, too. you know, those who really care.
#129704 - simonjhall - Fri May 25, 2007 11:33 am
#129717 - keldon - Fri May 25, 2007 4:15 pm
Ignorance is an unfair word. We're all ignorant of all things that we do not know about, such as the pattern of primes and whether your other half is cheating with another guy behind your back. We usually just say we don't know, like I didn't know that Quake had been made 'more' playable -_- So I'm not ignorant, I just "didn't know" ^_^
#129724 - kusma - Fri May 25, 2007 5:01 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| So I'm not ignorant, I just "didn't know" |
...Which are the exact same thing.
#129725 - Optihut - Fri May 25, 2007 5:15 pm
| kusma wrote: |
| keldon wrote: | | So I'm not ignorant, I just "didn't know" |
...Which are the exact same thing. |
In principle, yes, however "ignorant" has a very negative connotation, so I'd insist on the distinction as well.
#129730 - Tikker - Fri May 25, 2007 5:54 pm
| Optihut wrote: |
| kusma wrote: | | keldon wrote: | | So I'm not ignorant, I just "didn't know" |
...Which are the exact same thing. |
In principle, yes, however "ignorant" has a very negative connotation, so I'd insist on the distinction as well. |
that's mostly because most people use "ignorant" incorrectly when they speak ;)
#129734 - silent_code - Fri May 25, 2007 6:19 pm
i meant "ignorant", but i didn't mean RegalSin or anyone specific. i just said people demand homebrew (often with rude language), but at the same time they're ignoring the fact that hb is for free and some of us are putting hard work and a lot of time into it.
there are also ignorant ppl who simply *ignore* stuff just to be right. imo, ignoring is not allways the same as "not knowing". ignoring is more of a concious process (if it's not, you're probably metally ill). you see a thing, but you convince yourself that it has to be different. that's quite difficult to explain, but i am sure there's a standard definition for it.
| Quote: |
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is also the state of being ignorant or uninformed. For example, "Bill lost the debate because he was ignorant of that subject." In such a case the term is not pejorative, and may even be used as a self-descriptive term, as in, "I am ignorant of English history."
Another definition states that ignorance is the choice to not act or behave in accordance with regard to certain information in order to suit ones own needs or beliefs. For example, "I know better but I choose to ignore that and act in a way that behooves me." Ignorance is sometimes misinterpreted as a synonym of stupidity, and is as thus often taken as an insult, when really it is not.
In many if not all cases, ignorance is seen as a pleasant alternative to harsh reality. |
from wikipedia.
Last edited by silent_code on Fri May 25, 2007 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
#129735 - keldon - Fri May 25, 2007 6:24 pm
lol; I was joking. I know they mean the same thing but ... oh well, I guess I'm just not funny :(
When most people say ignorant they usually mean "ignant", "[url=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ig'nant]ig'nant[/url]" or when someone is disregarding accepted fact and trying to invent their own right, which is blatantly wrong.
#129736 - silent_code - Fri May 25, 2007 6:32 pm
<lol>
#129763 - MrD - Sat May 26, 2007 6:18 am
I hate folks who use the word 'ignorant' in the context of 'person who is ignoring something' or 'person who is unaware of something' as a synonym for 'stupid'. I hate it!
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#129765 - keldon - Sat May 26, 2007 8:18 am
| MrD wrote: |
| I hate folks who use the word 'ignorant' in the context of 'person who is ignoring something' or 'person who is unaware of something' as a synonym for 'stupid'. I hate it! |
Yes, it's just so ignorant!!! I like the way the Jackson's use that word, it sounds, well, hmmm, not ignorant but well, funny.
#129775 - Quirky - Sat May 26, 2007 8:09 pm
Simon, we all know you won't really quit. What usually happens is, you say "ok that's it I give up" and go off and do something else (read some books, finish playing some 100 hour RPG, learn a language, fix some bugs in some open source program you use, whatever).
Then one day you think "wouldn't it be cool to see X on the DS..." and you start fantasising about some new DS project. It keeps you awake at night, thinking about the cleanest design to get it done, or how you could use DS hardware to do a simple but cool effect... and so it starts. And before you know it, it's 1am and you're working on your new DS project. :-)
#129777 - keldon - Sat May 26, 2007 9:16 pm
Breaks and hiatus' are very good for your mental well being. You may find yourself back with more firepower and the hiatus can really clear your head with some relax-time in the evening after work finishes. Plus you have no excuse to be staying up past 10pm, so you can work wonders for yourself.
#130121 - tondopie - Thu May 31, 2007 1:51 am
I don't think you should quit simon, you have helped me in numerous ways on these forums. There is always some fun app that no one has thought of before... and if you get tired, just take a break... its always rewarding just helpping people too.
#130527 - Dan2552 - Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:34 pm
If you enjoy helping others, then carry on. Same with if you enjoy porting things, carry on with Quake2.
Anything that I've coded for GBA or DS is for myself to learn things, I find it fun. Not that I release much :rolleyes:.
#130528 - keldon - Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:42 pm
| Dan2552 wrote: |
| Anything that I've coded for GBA or DS is for myself to learn things, I find it fun. Not that I release much :rolleyes:. |
I do the same thing myself, I'll only release something if I think it's impressive in some way. That and it would mean I would have to create a website and decide on what my alias/identity/name is, and that is a very serious task (IMO). Once said, I don't want it to change without good reason.
#130807 - elyk1212 - Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:02 am
| simonjhall wrote: |
| ... supporting a thing like that would be horrific! |
Couldn't you put some of your projects on SVN and have other programmers/engineers contribute? I have to say, many GNU projects would have never gotten off the ground if it were not for CVS/SVN etc, and contributions from the community.
Why do us Engineers and CS folk always want to take the hard road? K.I.S.S.
:)
At least this way, you can chose to work on only the parts you enjoy, also.