#129891 - Dood77 - Mon May 28, 2007 8:38 pm
So this will be my first computer that I've built myself, as this time around I actually have some knowledge as to good kinds of hardware, whats compatible etc. (I went through buying and returning 2 graphics cards only to find out the difference between AGP, PCI, and PCI-E, and that we only had 3 average PCI slots >:[ )
So this summer I'm hoping for a job, something at least minimum wage and something behind a computer screen, I have experience in lots of things, some programming, lotsa web design, heck I'll be fine with just entering data into an Excel sheet... (If anyone lives north of Seattle and knows of an opening for such a job, maybe even an apprenticeship of some sort, PM me. I'm 17 and a Junior at Everett High)
But anyway to the point, I want to build a computer this summer, a somewhat high-end computer, because all the computers my family has had have been... not high end, and not very upgradeable at all. It's gonna be for gaming primarily (Half-Life orange box 8^O- - - -0 *DROOL*) Over the years I've learned a bunch of things about hardware that I didn't know before, like what different types of DIMM RAM there is, and like I mentioned before, expansion slots. So even though my source of income is still allowance, I want to find out what kind of motherboard will be right for me.
Things I'm looking for:
-Most likely socket 775 (I want a nice single-core processor, I've never had any experience with AMD, and I'm not looking to overclock)
-At least 2 PCI-E x16 and 2 normal PCI (three PCI would be nice.)
-Doesn't have to be liquid cooled, I don't wanna fool around with anything like that.
-4 DDR2 DIMMs, Dual-Channel of course. 4GB limit is fine.
-At least 4 pre-soldered USB 2.0
-No onboard graphics
-Some kind of average on board sound card, nothing extremely fancy, but something nice.
-Uhh... I think thats it? I don't know much about HDD interfaces but a few SATAs and IDEs are all I need, and I most likely won't be doing any RAID, and I don't need any eSATA or anything like that.
A few I've looked at are the ASUS P5ND2-SLI Deluxe and some in the MSI Diamond series. I noticed the ASUS one said "fanless design" does this mean you have to liquid-cool it? I'm looking for one that retails in the $100-$200 range so I can find a good deal on eBay for about $100 or less.
Thanks for your help :)
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129894 - keldon - Mon May 28, 2007 9:01 pm
I can tell you the following:
- if single core then AMD is always the best (just check a benchmark against processors of the same price and you'll see why)
- if dual core then get the Core 2 Duo
- most boards come with SATA2 as a standard, but may only be able to run 2 HDD's at a time when not in RAID mode
- most boards come with USB2 with connections to have them at the front too
- for GFX again check the benchmarks for cards of the same price; also look for a card with a built in heatsink unless you want to add one yourself, they're usually around $10-15 more but it is more than worth it
- stock on thermal paste
- consider RAM heatsinks, and also remember that ... ok, just lost my trail of thought; wait, may have had something to do with looking at alternative processor heatsink/fans which can be more efficient and quieter
- it won't hurt to have two different PSU's just in case one breaks down or starts giving bad voltages
- get a surge protected plug extension
#129920 - Dood77 - Tue May 29, 2007 2:47 am
| keldon wrote: |
| - stock on thermal paste |
Meaning buy a lot? I've never installed heatsinks or the like, I was going to have a friend help.
| keldon wrote: |
| - consider RAM heatsinks, and also remember that ... ok, just lost my trail of thought; wait, may have had something to do with looking at alternative processor heatsink/fans which can be more efficient and quieter |
So this would be a motherboard specific feature? A heatsink next to the ram or heat sinks on the chips themselves?
| keldon wrote: |
| - it won't hurt to have two different PSU's just in case one breaks down or starts giving bad voltages |
PSU for power supply unit? What part is this exactly? Is it something that comes on the motherboard or do you buy two separately?
| keldon wrote: |
| - get a surge protected plug extension |
Always :)
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129925 - tepples - Tue May 29, 2007 4:54 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| keldon wrote: | | - stock on thermal paste |
Meaning buy a lot? |
You do not want to overdo thermal paste.
| Dood77 wrote: |
| PSU for power supply unit? What part is this exactly? Is it something that comes on the motherboard or do you buy two separately? |
The power supply often comes with a case, but you can buy a spare.
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#129929 - Dood77 - Tue May 29, 2007 5:49 am
Yeah thats what part I was thinking of... But why would I need another one just in case the first one randomly malfunctions?
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129937 - keldon - Tue May 29, 2007 9:15 am
Thermal paste: just have some left over for the future. And yes, do not overdo it and lay it as thin as possible
RAM heat sinks: they go over the RAM and stop them from overheating from processor heat as some motherboards have them close to the CPU in the direction that the heat sink directs the heat. Add that to the room temperature in the summer and it can put your RAM in the red (ooh ooh a pun). And for that reason I also have my PC temp monitor running, which doesn't really take any CPU power and warns me when anything is too hot.
PSU: ever since I got bad voltages from a brand new PSU I guess I've been a little paranoid. But you tend to get one PSU with the case (even when they say it won't), so you'll probably end up buying one and ending up with two anyway
#129965 - Lynx - Tue May 29, 2007 2:45 pm
I didn't notice an overall price you are planning to spend.. but tom's hardware is a great place to learn about computer hardware and it's benchmarks. If this is your first computer, I'd suggest you built as cheap as possible. It really sucks to fry a $300 video card because you made a mistake.
Fanless vs with fan only comes into play if you are trying to build a quiet computer. If you plan on setting it on the floor in the corner, and won't be able to hear all the noise, then it won't really matter to you. But if you do care about noise, then you have to watch the db levels of anything that provides them.
Also, there is a HUGE difference between $25 PSUs and $74 PSUs.. They may both say 500 watts on them, but they are not even close to the same inside.
Thermal paste.. Here again is a choice you have to make. I prefer Arctic Silver because it doesn't try out. But, the trade off to that is that it IS conductive. Which means, if you get some on the motherboard and don't know it, or don't pull it out and wash the hell out of it, you risk it frying from the short. The "cheaper" themal paste isn't conductive, but dries out. Which means in a few years it will reduce it's ability to transfer heat. As for application, I use a sandwich baggy over my finger, put just a little ball of paste on the tip, and rub it into the processor like your finger painting. Then, take a piece of paper and holding it tight, scrape it accross the top, removing any extra paste. The thermal paste is only supposed to fill in any spaces (air gaps from on imperfect surface) between the processor and the heatsink, not be a layer between them.
Make sure you price out the total machine before you start putting it together. Compare it with some of the pre-built brands or the custom built brands to make sure you will be saving money (unless you want to do it just to learn). Don't forget about shipping costs if you plan on buying from a bunch of different online sites. With todays prices, you might find out that you can buy a better computer for the money than you can build. Also keep in mind that many of the branded computers are using standard parts now days. So you have the ability to upgrade parts as you have more money.
Oh.. and I would also suggest you download the manuals to any product you plan on purchasing to make sure they are compatible. You might find that a motherboard will work better with a specific type of product so you will want to purchase that type of product or pick a different motherboard.
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#129970 - Dood77 - Tue May 29, 2007 4:50 pm
Thanks for all the replies, thats a nice site I'll have a more in depth look later.
So what should I be looking at in a PSU? I probably won't be sucking too much power, but then again I really don't know much about power, all I would do is grab whatever fit and plugged it in... and like I said I'll have more experienced help there in person.
So does anyone recommend a specific board? Or maybe just a chipset or a brand name even? I'm thinking I might want SLI support later, I really don't know much about what chipsets are better and stuff like that.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129977 - keldon - Tue May 29, 2007 6:50 pm
I am yet to find a pre made computer that isn't at least 10% more expensive than when I put it together myself. In fact they're usually so much more expensive that I can undercut their prices and add 12% to the price.
For boards I have either Asus or Abit; can't remember the other brand I have used. But in general you really don't want to get an unreliable board at all as it will cost you more than it will save.
#129983 - Dood77 - Tue May 29, 2007 9:00 pm
Yeah, reading up on brands I've found that ASUS has the best reputation.
So about processors, as I said I would like a modern socket, something single core and around ~3GHz or more. I've looked at the Pentuim 4EE, and someone else recommended AMD for single-cores, but I know nothing of them. I think the Athlon 64s all have a dual x86 and x64 architecture right? Is there any downsides to this? (I'm not gonna be using a 64 bit OS)
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129985 - keldon - Tue May 29, 2007 9:13 pm
Oh no, not all Athlon 64's are dual core. For example I have an Athlon 64 3200+ processor that is single core; but whatever you do do not get a dual core AMD, choose the Core 2 Duo for dual core (check the mind blowing benchmarks). It's a shame because I have been a fan of AMD since the K6, they've been peeing over Intel processors for untold years but Intel have really knocked them for six with this one and now AMD have gone Lennox Lewis 'did I win' on us.
As for the Athlon 64, you don't have to run a 64 bit OS when getting a 64 bit processor; it's just an additional option. In Linux, however, you do get that option for free -_-
#130011 - Dood77 - Wed May 30, 2007 4:15 am
No, I didn't mean dual core, I said dual architecture, like they handle both x86 and x64 instructions.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#130020 - keldon - Wed May 30, 2007 7:52 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| No, I didn't mean dual core, I said dual architecture, like they handle both x86 and x64 instructions. |
Oh yes they do. Not sure if there are any that are not backwards compatible
#130029 - simonjhall - Wed May 30, 2007 9:23 am
With power supplies, make sure you get the right type - some motherboards expect a 24-pin block connector (ATX 2.0), but older ones require a 20-pin (old-style ATX).
So if it's a motherboard which needs ATX 2, get an ATX 2-compatible PSU! I think you can get an adaptor to make 20 pins fit into 24, but I don't think they're recommended. Also these more modern PSUs have PCI-E power connectors (for directly powering juicy video cards) but the older ATX ones didn't.
It goes without saying that ATX 2 costs more than ATX 1 :-)
And yeah, you're right to avoid water cooling. Went I built my machine (in late 2005) I decided that I didn't wanna listen to it any more and I didn't want to care about the temperature (my Athlon XP always ran too hot), plus wanted great overclocking potential. So I got water cooling, but it's such a PITA that I would definately go back to air cooling if I could! Don't get me wrong, it works really really well (nice and cool and near-silent machine, low temps) but you certainly can't poke around inside your machine without the worry that some might knock something which then might start dripping! Also as there's just one small fan in my case, passive things get pretty hot (ie RAM), so watch out if you get a WC'ed machine!
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#130049 - Lynx - Wed May 30, 2007 2:39 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| I am yet to find a pre made computer that isn't at least 10% more expensive than when I put it together myself. |
Well, it depends on what you are going to use it for. If you only plan to do e-mail and browse the web, 1Ghz machine is plenty. A major retailer in my area has a machine with 17" LCD for $350. 17" LCD will run you around $130 which only leaves $220 for the rest of the computer. If I remember correct, it was a 1.3Ghz Duron, 256MB RAM, and 60GB HD or something in that area.
Now, if you are building a gaming machine, I would agree, as most manufacturers know that this is a high profit market and someone that is willing to spend $2,000 on a computer today doesn't count the pennies.
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#130062 - keldon - Wed May 30, 2007 5:26 pm
A 1.3GHz Duron is a Celeron type PC and is pretty much clearance as they haven't been in production for a very long time. Some 17" monitors will cost around $130, but it all depends on how good of an LCD they are giving you, but it is rare that a prebuilt machine is ever cheaper than getting the stocks straight from the supplier as the major retailers are still getting it from those suppliers anyway. And having said that I have only seen cheaper stock on blue moons when stock is being cleared.
ATX2 motherboards will function with ATX PSU's, but it will begin to run with instabilities with more hardware attached. Basically you don't want to do it, and many PSU's are ATX2 with the option to not plug in the extra 4 pins.
#130090 - Lynx - Wed May 30, 2007 9:45 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| but it is rare that a prebuilt machine is ever cheaper than getting the stocks straight from the supplier as the major retailers are still getting it from those suppliers anyway. |
So, your saying that a major retailer purchasing 100,000 units gets the same price as you or I purchasing just one?
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#130102 - keldon - Thu May 31, 2007 12:09 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| keldon wrote: | | but it is rare that a prebuilt machine is ever cheaper than getting the stocks straight from the supplier as the major retailers are still getting it from those suppliers anyway. |
So, your saying that a major retailer purchasing 100,000 units gets the same price as you or I purchasing just one? |
No, but they will sell it for much more than I purchase them for, even with business accounts. And though they are buying them for less they also have overheads, staff wages, maintenance costs, etc, which is why they retail at the prices that they do.
Like I said, "it is rare that a prebuilt machine is ever cheaper than getting the stock straight from the supplier". That's a fact in my case however you phrase your question, maybe the scene might be a little different in some states in the US, but in England you're not exactly that far from the ports where they are shipped in and land prices are high. Maybe you are not aware of who the best suppliers are - and I'm not talking about local stockists.
#130179 - Lynx - Thu May 31, 2007 3:01 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| That's a fact in my case however you phrase your question, maybe the scene might be a little different in some states in the US, but in England ... |
Oh.. nm. I tend to think US for everyone. I found that a $250 computere here (ordered and shipped to my door) is more like $500-600 in the UK.. Which was why I didn't buy the new machine for WinterMute like I had planned. And for me to ship it to him, it would cost $265.. So, it's a lot cheaper to build a computer in this example vs buying one pre-built. But, again, I think it depends on what you are going to use the computer for.
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#130184 - keldon - Thu May 31, 2007 5:30 pm
Woah; I get shipping for $7-$12 in 2-3 working days. But then again England is just a tiny little island and towns with plenty of other people to deliver to.
As for a pre built PC at $250, I'd eat my hat if I saw one like that over here (that wasn't stolen). Well without a monitor you can get a MBoard+Processor and a little DDR RAM with the possibility of a teeny 60GB hard-drive ... ish
But we have 17.5% tax on EVERYTHING; without that the whole market would be very cheap.
#130229 - Lynx - Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:59 am
Well, shipping was for 35lbs or something.. I typed it in at FedEx and DHL if I remember correct and both were around $250 just for shipping. The $250 PC was an AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+, 512MB pc4200, 40GB HD (which is plenty for an nds dev box), without OS.. That was a pre-built, but when I was refering to pre-built before, I was talking about Dell, Gateway, etc. Not generic machines built by a reseller like the one listed above.
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