#130885 - keldon - Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:26 am
Now that Acclaim have revealed plans involving 20,000 volunteers developing one game it's got me thinking of this is possible in another way.
I once thought that it would be a great idea if [say] the entire GBA community worked one one large game that was somehow made up of lots of little games all pieced together - in a clever way like a 7th guest style puzzle-a-thon. Of course I would never mention it because I just would have had no time for it and still wouldn't. But I want to see if other people could think build on that thought.
Is this somehow possible on the GBA? And if so would there also be a way where one could - for example - include a regular update that is loaded via flash cart or something? The very download would encourage subscription, and with there being some 40 million DS owners and 80 million worldwide GBA owners maybe that isn't such a bad idea.
p.s. I can't sleep right now; why? No fair, I have an interview!
#130890 - RegalSin - Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:58 am
For one of my works I plan to create such a game like that. In fact the Saturn game I mention is what I want to make in such a product.
The way it works is that we all do our fair share and jot down our ideas at the same time.
For example if keldon has a great idea for game and we are his team who is dedicated towards bringing the sight true. We the team would also have our share in what we want in the game also.
We take our ideas and start presenting them to the table and keldon being the leader officer will be like " okay but we need stay on main focus of the original game and then we can start adding such and such "
Then on certain days we will start working on other peoples ideas and making place holders for there ideas in the game itself in the game engine and on paper.....
Also people would bring there work home.
Now on the international scale we will have updates that will give out user created items. We will also mail updated discs or ask for people to mail in there carts to have them updated.
Everytime we update we add a whole new feature to the game that is in present with the old features and or areas.
Now back at the workstation we are situated with making the game flow.
The world of the game itself will be setup so we can have new anything and everything.
There would be no limit if we could have a working enviorment where everybody is on the clock.
Then again like you asked how could they do such a thing. I have thought about like you have many times before.
They were sappose to do it with the Sonic Boom DVD collection but they failed.
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#130896 - Lick - Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:18 am
A community is a community, not a dev team! I'm sure a handful of people would be interested but the majority does not.
May I also remind you that the more the game is going to do (all those different ideas) the less focus there is and eventually that will hurt the final result.
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#130902 - wintermute - Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:56 am
Design by committee never works, there must always be at least one person who must make the final decisions or the project will be doomed to failure.
I'd say that the idea of downloadable updates would be more feasible on the DS where there is already a reasonably standard way of connecting to the internet. On the GBA it might be possible if we had something in place to allow internet connection - for instance I've considered adding such a feature to Xboo Communicator but have been held back by the lack of a standard cable.
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#130912 - Lynx - Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:16 am
I don't see it being possible just becuase of the different levels of skill. You'd have some parts of the full program extremely efficient, and others not so much. Efficient developers would lose interest as they see it become bloated and may no longer what their name associated with it. Then, you have lack of collaboration experiece. Most homebrew projects are only 1 person doing what they want to do. There are only a few that have more then one person working on them. And even of the ones with multiple people, how many have multipe coders?
Then, let's say you have a 20 person team... No matter what, you would need a project leader.. and if that person says or does something that any of the developers don't like, they quit. next thing you know.. there is only a few people left working on the project. Now, if you can keep the team together, the project leader would have to provide very detailed information as to what they expect. You can't have 20 developers doing whatever they want, and not expect things to collide or have dever battles over how something should be handled, or if they should be the one that codes it, or someone else should, etc.
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#130919 - tepples - Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:34 am
All I can see coming out of this is a WarioWare clone.
A structure like Mozilla's, where you have two code reviewers look at each patch before it's checked in, might help managers deal with less experienced coders.
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#130924 - sgeos - Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:11 am
I could see using some sort of submission system with an accept/reject/fix-and-retry mechanism. It would certianly make for an interesting project.
-Brendan
#130927 - RegalSin - Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:01 am
| Lick wrote: |
A community is a community, not a dev team! I'm sure a handful of people would be interested but the majority does not.
|
Lick how many designe teams have you been on that attempted to do what Akklaim is going to do?
| Quote: |
May I also remind you that the more the game is going to do (all those different ideas) the less focus there is and eventually that will hurt the final result. |
Name some games?
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#130929 - keldon - Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:54 am
Tepples: Very true, it would be pretty much like Warioware - although the idea for it came to me a log time before I heard of that; I first thought of a giant puzzle game with each person contributing at least one room/level!
Lick,Wintermute: Yes, a community is not a dev team and there would have to be a core of producers. There would have to be an initial idea, and Acclaim are putting their eggs into this basket so there's got to be some form of working management system for this type of project.
As for the whole "one big game", see it more like one big set of add on mods to an engine or something. You have a core engine where the player can move around an environment and the many people make small add ons to it; if they leave a completed add on then everyone can work around it and patch it in. There's got to be a clever mechanism to make this work.
With the EZ-Flash and MicroSD is it easy to just plug the SD into the cartridge and you have an update? If so then that could be how! In fact that could be the whole way it is "sort of" handled!
Sgeos: Well imagine it as a competition; the top xx make it into the final game. So they are submitted to one place, rated/judged and eventually patched in.
#130949 - Lick - Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:15 pm
| RegalSin wrote: |
| Lick wrote: | A community is a community, not a dev team! I'm sure a handful of people would be interested but the majority does not.
|
Lick how many designe teams have you been on that attempted to do what Akklaim is going to do? |
Me was referring to the GBA(/DS) homebrew community.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
May I also remind you that the more the game is going to do (all those different ideas) the less focus there is and eventually that will hurt the final result. |
Name some games? |
I don't know of any commercial titles (which could count as evidence) but I have seen countless failed amateur projects.
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#130962 - keldon - Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:56 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| Quote: | | Quote: |
May I also remind you that the more the game is going to do (all those different ideas) the less focus there is and eventually that will hurt the final result. |
Name some games? |
I don't know of any commercial titles (which could count as evidence) but I have seen countless failed amateur projects. |
Not finding something never counts as evidence and only hints at ignorance until it is fact that it does not exist (ancient philosophy).
#130967 - Lick - Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:36 pm
Keldon, do you, personally, think, that a good game will come forth from hundreds of different gameplay elements?
Somethings to think about are how to keep the difficultylevel balanced. Also, some of those elements will never fit in with others. Also, how much storage/development time will such an element require, there's never enough resources to completely insert them in the product while keeping the game balanced and on time.
Name a book that is written by 1000 authors and was a good read. See my point?
See the logic? If not, then let's just leave it a disagreement. I don't want to argue over such a tiny little stupid statement. Do I even care about this project (Acclaims)? No. I don't. Will I play it? I can assure you that I will not. I personally don't even believe the development of this game will survive the summer.
If you reply to challenge me, go ahead. But I know if I post again it will just be another disagreement with what you posted. And I know that can go on till eternity. So this is my last post in this topic.
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Last edited by Lick on Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
#130968 - Optihut - Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:43 pm
If we can't even agree on the theoretical idea of the whole community producing something, I don't see how the actual implementation could work.
#130980 - keldon - Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:37 pm
Maybe I should start by stating more solid questions:
- what would definately not work?
- what may work, or make "it" work?
| Lick wrote: |
Name a book that is written by 1000 authors and was a good read. See my point?
See the logic? If not, then let's just leave it a disagreement. I don't want to argue over such a tiny little stupid statement. Do I even care about this project (Acclaims)? No. I don't. Will I play it? I can assure you that I will not. I personally don't even believe the development of this game will survive the summer.
If you reply to challenge me, go ahead. But I know if I post again it will just be another disagreement with what you posted. And I know that can go on till eternity. So this is my last post in this topic. |
Maybe I should start by saying there should be no disagreement (on my part); why should there be a disagreement? That is what is wrong with the internet, everyone wants to argue and disagree, why?
I see the logic yes, why shouldn't I since it is obvious! Clearly a book written by 1,000 different people will have plenty of problems, but that in no way means that 100 or 1,000 people could not contribute to making a book in a creative way. But as for the "argument", no that is not what I do, it is pointless arguing. What I will do in the future is state that I am arguing; in fact I will put it in my sig because it really annoys me when people begin continue arguments that never began. Maybe the argument is a continuation of some eternal something that attaches itself to random permutations of words </pondering>
| Optihut wrote: |
| If we can't even agree on the theoretical idea of the whole community producing something, I don't see how the actual implementation could work. |
Maybe that's because this is a topic saying "what would" not a project saying "this is". There are few times where I say "this is" what I was saying, instead I say "what would" and give an example of a project utilizing this. But that is a very big point, supported by the perfect war example of "Chinese whispers", which was a soldier communication training exercise that found its way into schools.
So that partly answers the "what wouldn't work"; and like Lick (or someone) was saying, a large committee is bound to fail. The addition of committee layers also slows development time with the flow of information - it's something I deal with being part of different committees, and also being part of the town's general committee you see first hand how big of an effect communication channels are.
#130982 - RegalSin - Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:55 pm
| Quote: |
| Clearly a book written by 1,000 different people will have plenty of problems, but that in no way means that 100 or 1,000 people could not contribute to making a book in a creative way. |
There was a book on Soccer that was written by somebody but he had to rewrite the book after getting judgement from other people in the same feild.
We can rally a project where there is mulitple people in diffrent feilds with diffrent ideas and include all ideas Just look at Project A-ko.
The only problem I see is communications. I think we would need a time chart of some sort.
Project A-ko was made by many first time artists and the original plot that is only 1/3 of the entire movie was made by the two people who started the project alone.
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#130990 - keldon - Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:54 pm
Well you do have impro-comics, but that is completely different as you can easily have another person continue a story. Keeping the stories consistent is another story, but that's pretty much a story written by a large amount of people. But it is not a novel, or a graphic novel; just a long series.
Probably the reason why nothing like that has been tried is because we have never been at a stage where it was possible. Since when could you have people connected via so many streams across the world at an instant? Plus it is a very difficult task to find a "mechanism that works"; again the useful productive questions are:
- what would work?
- what wouldn't work?
- what must be overcome / understood?
And like I said before, Acclaim are investing in something of this nature, in fact they are going for a bigger scale utilizing more people. They clearly have a defined strategy and way to have everything coordinated; are they on to something? They obviously aren't naive!
#130999 - Lynx - Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:14 am
Well, you can see huge projects like what you are talking about in most of successful OSS projects out there. I don't think anyone would say it can't be done in general. But, if you step back and look at the homebrew community, it's size, and the amount of internal "fighting/disagreements", I can't see the project going anywhere.
But, instead of just talking about it, try it. It's not like there is anything to lose. No money out of anyone's pocket. Start a project on souceforge and go for it. That's easy enough, and will be the solid proof needed to show who is correct.
I stated mainly why I see the project failing, but I'd love to be proven wrong and would like to play a game like this no matter how good or bad it might end up.
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#131004 - keldon - Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:53 am
Hmmm, well yes the community size is very small in comparison to successful OSS projects. Also most successful OSS projects are full of professionals and have many contributions from commercial entities (not to say that non commercial entities and unprofessional coders are incapable).
As for starting a project, now is too premature; there is not even a plan other than "wouldn't that be nice if many coders were involved in one single (clever) project with a good management system". I also think it is far too early to say "it definately is this or that"; I wouldn't even go as far to say that "it is possible". In fact I am not saying what, just asking how.
Of course maybe the question is far bigger than I suspected and if there is an answer that it would require more research into the topic to find it. But in summary so far - give or take a few posts and without bias to too many of my own statements:
Large numbers
- large numbers are more difficult to manage, especially where many are involved in the decision process
- the probability of arguments increase, so does its effect when coupled with peer pressure and sub group formation <side thought> why are there arguments?
Communication
- wars are actually won/lost on communication, in fact it is the key to all collaboration
- it is one of the biggest hurdles between discussion and specification in a large group as typical communication does not tend to ensure both parties have the exact same concept; this is pivotal to such a system's success.
Submission/collaboration mechanism
- a subversion system with accept/reject/fix-and-retry could work
- game can treat additional submissions as mods, add ons or "something"
Mixture of gameplay elements
- it's not good, it's not fun, it's just "random"
Questions to be asked
- if "it" was done by some "random" team, how do you think "it" would be done?
- what is "it"? It's the most important question because at the moment "it" is just a random game type that nobody knows about. "It" could be a puzzle giant 7th guest style puzzler, or a super sized adventure game with alternate physics utilizing the same character
- more importantly, what sort of project/task/challenge could involve many different coders producing a single game?
possible related topics lightly said
- a game with MiniSD flash card updates that could utilize downloads subscriptions
EDIT: poor formatting, oops
Last edited by keldon on Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total
#131005 - wintermute - Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:06 am
| keldon wrote: |
Lick,Wintermute: Yes, a community is not a dev team and there would have to be a core of producers. There would have to be an initial idea, and Acclaim are putting their eggs into this basket so there's got to be some form of working management system for this type of project.
|
I don't think I'm being quite as negative as Lick is :P
The Acclaim project, being an MMO, is pretty well suited to this sort of endaevour. There's a fairly long tradition of user supplied content going right back to the days of Doom. I think their major issue is going to be one of filtering rather than lack of submissions.
| Quote: |
With the EZ-Flash and MicroSD is it easy to just plug the SD into the cartridge and you have an update? If so then that could be how! In fact that could be the whole way it is "sort of" handled!
|
Actually, yes - that's exactly how the SD based flash cart solutions work.
| keldon wrote: |
Large numbers
- large numbers are more difficult to manage, especially where many are involved in the decision process
- the probability of arguments increase, so does its effect when coupled with peer pressure and sub group formation <side thought> why are there arguments?
|
Large numbers are probably best co-ordinated through a forum, depending on how many people want to get involved.
There are arguments because of the egos involved - game programming seems to be much like a band, everyone wants to be the lead guitarist and in the limelight. With GBA/DS homebrew the age of the participants may be a factor.
| Quote: |
- more importantly[b], what sort of project/task/challenge could involve many different coders producing a single game?
|
I think something like a Dungeon Master/Eye of the Beholder style game might be best suited to this sort of endeavour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(computer_game)
There's plenty of scope there for level & puzzle design as well as plenty of graphics.
| Quote: |
[b]possible related topics lightly said
- a game with MiniSD flash card updates that could utilize downloads subscriptions
|
Definitely sounds interesting.
I'd be up for helping with co-ordination and technical support.
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#131022 - Ant6n - Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:19 am
I'd say when doing a project among a large number of volunteers, its probably easier to think of it in terms of organizers and contributers (or suppliers). People doing art/resources are usually seen as contributors, they can create resources according to a some general spec.
Programmers tend to view themselves as organizers, esp in homebrew; that's possibly why people think it's not possible to join in a big community project. Too many cooks spoil the soup.
So if there are a lot of programmers, one could maybe try to split the project up so that there are lot of 'contributors'. One way is to have a bunch of minigames with a connecting storyline. Another way might be to create a sort of engine that lets other programmers contribute in a way that is similar to creating resources (as artists would do). Or maybe there are a lot of artists in this community, then it'd be easier to split up from the start. I've run out of thought for the moment...
#131028 - keldon - Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:07 am
| wintermute wrote: |
I think their major issue is going to be one of filtering rather than lack of submissions.
... Actually, yes - that's exactly how the SD based flash cart solutions work. |
That sounds like a big task; although you can use the trust metric to filter along with some system to sort submissions in order to direct people to try/rate them.
| wintermute wrote: |
Large numbers are probably best co-ordinated through a forum, depending on how many people want to get involved.
There are arguments because of the egos involved - game programming seems to be much like a band, everyone wants to be the lead guitarist and in the limelight. With GBA/DS homebrew the age of the participants may be a factor. |
That's something that must be conquered, and it can. I tend to neutralize any possible argument as soon as possible as they [arguments]ruin communications in discussions. Forum/chat access must endure an induction and communication test (maybe, lol)
| wintermute wrote: |
| I'd be up for helping with co-ordination and technical support. |
Great, I'll definitely keep that in mind.
| Ant6n wrote: |
| I'd say when doing a project among a large number of volunteers, its probably easier to think of it in terms of organizers and contributers (or suppliers). People doing art/resources are usually seen as contributors, they can create resources according to a some general spec. |
Sounds about right - kind of on the same note as what Wintermute was saying about organizers/leads. There is a business management model for such behaviour involving everyone thinking for themselves with the bigger picture in mind. The committee only direct (or something to that nature) and it works good with large groups of this kind. Of course it is a completely new Software Engineering approach when applied to programming and would require a whole new set of practices and patterns (possibly). Having said that the model is great for information based areas where there is too much knowledge required for a single person to be a producer for.
| Ant6n wrote: |
| Programmers tend to view themselves as organizers, esp in homebrew; that's possibly why people think it's not possible to join in a big community project. Too many cooks spoil the soup. |
Yes; well part of the management process (above) has each task coordinated by a different person. So in some tasks the manager sees to his employees and they coordinate him [the manager]. A single direction for a massive group is quite like directing a war; communication, coordination, collaboration and conduct are the key to it all working together. (Note: I mentioned war before)
| Ant6n wrote: |
| One way is to have a bunch of minigames with a connecting storyline. Another way might be to create a sort of engine that lets other programmers contribute in a way that is similar to creating resources (as artists would do). Or maybe there are a lot of artists in this community, then it'd be easier to split up from the start. I've run out of thought for the moment... |
Well that is a nice trail of thought; RPG types with many puzzles and minigames via a connecting storyline makes sense.
Dealing with the many different people, conversations, views and opinions and keeping the flow of information and ideas
- it may be beneficial if there were a person assigned to the task for collating common ideas and linking them together in some way. There may be an optimal ratio of say 1:12. I also remember 12 being the optimal size of a group/team, hence Jesus and his 12 disciples
#131278 - Touchstone - Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:30 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| Lick wrote: |
I don't know of any commercial titles (which could count as evidence) but I have seen countless failed amateur projects. |
Not finding something never counts as evidence and only hints at ignorance until it is fact that it does not exist (ancient philosophy). |
On the other hand we have Russels Teapot. It's up to the believer to prove the theory, not up to the sceptic to disprove the theory.
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#131286 - keldon - Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:46 pm
| Touchstone wrote: |
| On the other hand we have Russels Teapot. It's up to the believer to prove the theory, not up to the sceptic to disprove the theory. |
Well technically a disproof is a proof that a condition cannot be proved to be correct, so it's just a matter of perspective ^_^
#131294 - sgeos - Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:03 am
Nethack.
#131302 - jester - Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:57 am
an elite grop of around 15 coders and the best from this community could make a good project together i believe!
#131312 - tepples - Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:46 am
| keldon wrote: |
| Well technically a disproof is a proof that a condition cannot be proved to be correct, so it's just a matter of perspective ^_^ |
So would G?del's incompleteness theorem be a proof or a disproof? It proves that true yet unprovable statements exist in any logic that is expressive enough to define integer arithmetic.
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#131321 - keldon - Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:22 am
Well technically it's a theory, so it should contain a proof. G?del's theorem is quite interesting!
| jester wrote: |
| an elite grop of around 15 coders and the best from this community could make a good project together i believe! |
Yes, probably. Although I think the whole 'ego' thing must be dispelled from all communities. I think it is possible!
#131398 - Ant6n - Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:37 am
well, there are tons of people who'd like to see a gta type game on the DS. One big city/world/galazy, many little games/missions.
Also, I heard people might be interested in a mmorpg.
#131400 - tepples - Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:56 am
| Ant6n wrote: |
| well, there are tons of people who'd like to see a gta type game on the DS. |
It's too bad that you live in Montreal and I live in Fort Wayne. In any country other than the United States and Canada, you can get Payback for GBA.
| Quote: |
| Also, I heard people might be interested in a mmorpg. |
Animal Crossing: Wild World has just as much grind as any MMORPG.
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#131414 - keldon - Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:00 am
Well Apex Designs do ship worldwide. I played frontal assault at my friends house back in '97, he had an Amiga and that game was ACE! The AI was interesting because you selected it by aggressiveness, etc.
#131475 - tepples - Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:50 am
O RLY? Still not available.
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#131492 - Ant6n - Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:58 am
i dunno the gra1 clone is not really that cool. I tested it for like 20 min. I mean, it is cool, well done for a gba game, really as well done as it gets, but after gta3 any top down thing is just not fun.
It also doesnt use the DS. I dunno, the thought was to maybe have something freeroaming, which would need quite a complex engine, and then some sort of scripting language to make missions inside. well, i was just throwing the a possible BIG project in the discussion, which would need quite some organization.
#131525 - tepples - Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:20 pm
How would you squeeze GTA 3 into a T rating? There are only a handful of M-rated games for the DS, possibly because publishers find that M-rated games on cart-based handhelds don't sell well.
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#131531 - Ant6n - Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:58 pm
gta3? rating? sell?
#131569 - sgeos - Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:01 pm
It won't sell if Nintendo locks the gate.
-Brendan
#131573 - tepples - Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:46 pm
Nintendo tried locking the gate in the Super NES days, and the result was that a lot of people bought Sega Genesis systems just so that they could press A, B, A, C, A, B, B in Mortal Kombat and see red blood.
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#131589 - sgeos - Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:17 pm
I'm not convinced the same could really be done today with the DS.
-Brendan
#131591 - keldon - Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:50 pm
Well back to the topic; a large number of artists works well and is not much of a problem, but how could one make use of many programmers? Incompetent programmers could not be all working on the same code base, however could script behaviours. The reason being is that an inexperienced programmer is very likely to introduce code that is inconsistent or difficult to reuse (in fact it is probably inevitable).
Having said that you can have a scenario where, for example:
- an inexperienced coder creates a small confined concept / sub-game / script / character behaviour
- a second coder examines the code and identifies bug-hot-spots and potential issues with reuse and future modifications making use of, or making use of code that makes use of the product
- a third coder improves the code using the recommendations of the second
- a fourth coder examines the code and accepts it
- a fifth coder begins to integrate small concept into larger context
I found an interesting paper on understanding free/open source software development when searching for open source development processes
#131602 - Dood77 - Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:58 pm
About multiple programmers... this is where (or so I've heard) Object Oriented Programming is the most useful.
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