#133671 - tepples - Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:59 pm
Please air your complaints about me here, using constructive language, and preferably with (polite yet specific) recommendations as to how I could better serve this board.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#133674 - StoneCypher - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:10 am
Presumption of superiority. Condescention. Shifting of blame. Giving of bad advice. Telling people they're wrong but then not explaining how.
And never, EVER admitting you caused a fight.
_________________
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum Sonatur
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
#133675 - simonjhall - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:15 am
I have always found your contributions helpful to me. I've always known that if someone knew the answer to the problem (particular the gory details for hardware) it would be you.
HOWEVER, sometimes when I read messages you've written (often to others) it's hard to read 'between the lines' as I can't tell if you're stating something, asking something, or just plain telling telling them how it should be.
Mate, just keep on doing what you're doing - you obviously enjoy it ;-)
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#133676 - tepples - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:17 am
| StoneCypher wrote: |
| Presumption of superiority. |
Example?
Example?
| Quote: |
| Shifting of blame. |
Example?
| Quote: |
| Giving of bad advice. |
I plead guilty. No advice is perfect.
| Quote: |
| Telling people they're wrong but then not explaining how. |
Example?
| Quote: |
| And never, EVER admitting you caused a fight. |
Which fight did I cause that did not involve you?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#133685 - keldon - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:25 am
Why should anyone be sick of you? I perceive you to be a person who initially takes statements in the literal sense (i.e. you have lawyer potential, or at least potential to find gaps in another lawyers arguments).
I already posted my thoughts on this [type of] situation in another thread, and I think this is important for the internet as a whole.
| Long story short, in this thread keldon wrote: |
Honestly there is too much disinhibition on the internet. There are further studies about this with columnists implying that many people view the internet as a fantasy world. It just seems that everything is an argument on the internet and people are rapidly disregarding etiquette, respect, and general social skills!
This slows down communication and growth big time. Imagine if 90% of the people in the community had come across 5 antisocial community members and considered the scene to be a little lame! There are probably a lot of people who moved onto other platforms because of this. "Why do GBA Dev, all the people there just spend their whole day flaming people for no apparent reason", I've heard it before and took no notice until I saw this thread. Now I know they are not talking nonsense. This stuff seriously needs to stop; it is childish and pointless. <advice>Maybe take your aggression out on a punch bag, go for a jog, drive the car a few miles an hour slower while playing Frank Sinatra, but for the love of flying bacon don't make the scene look lame.</advice> |
As for serving the board, you are doing a great job. You ask useful questions and raise interesting topics.
#133689 - keldon - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:31 am
<commentary>And not sick is in the lead with four votes to three. Comments were made but it seems that not sick is off to a flying start with sick following ever so close behind...
EDIT: I saw that post that got deleted! Good thing nobody quoted it ^_^
#133693 - BigRedPimp - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:42 am
The biggest thing that rubs me the wrong away about you is how you tout your own projects as superior to others. Case in point: Luminesweeper vs Gleam. Trolling on someone's posts for their own project to promote your own comes off a tad elitist.
I know people who have the same "uniqueness" who don't come off as abrasive as you do. It's all in timing. You have to determine when to speak, when to sit back & listen and when to ignore all that's going on.
A lot of people work hard for what they do and become proud of their work. They then want to show it off to others. Do not take this as an opportunity to ride on their publicity unless you have some creative criticism to offer. Learn to support others and they will learn to support you. This in itself is the only problem I have with you.
EDIT: pay no attention to spammy. Spammy has been using the name of others in the community for his personal goals of annoying everyone with his childishness.
#133695 - KeithE - Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:53 am
Not sick of you at all!
I have learned a lot reading your responses to many questions. You are always quick to respond, either with a helpful comment or question.
#133699 - wintermute - Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:00 am
Like Simon I often find it difficult to tell if you're asking, telling or stating. Some posts, like the recent printf backspacing thread seem like a carefully engineered setup in order to air some criticism of other people or their code. Personally I've never used \r on a DS nor did I see the relevance of that code to backspacing.
In other places I've found your methods of promoting yourself a little on the distasteful side, best example was what almost amounted to stalking of the Gleam author. http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=9272
Somewhere I critcised you for phrasing feature requests as questions in barely related topics which resulted in you taking me rather literally with the "I suggest" thing. That was a bit annoying.
I'm pleased to note that your signature is now less provocative, that's a good start.
| keldon wrote: |
| <commentary>And not sick is in the lead with four votes to three. Comments were made but it seems that not sick is off to a flying start with sick following ever so close behind... |
Personally my money would be on not sick surging ahead for the simple reason that certain people who are annoyed by Tepples got that way over a long time frame. For me, certain things annoy me, some of them have been addressed, others might take a while.
| Quote: |
| EDIT: I saw that post that got deleted! Good thing nobody quoted it ^_^ |
Yeah, sorry - bit of spillover from IRC going on atm, bit unfortunate.
I'm hoping we can turn this into something a little more constructive than a mere voting contest and keep the random shit stirring to a minimum.
_________________
devkitPro - professional toolchains at amateur prices
devkitPro IRC support
Personal Blog
#133705 - sajiimori - Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:13 am
From what I can tell, you play an overall positive role in the homebrew community.
Personal quirks aside (and we've all got them), my #1 piece of advice is to resist the impulse to make correctional posts that don't actually help anyone. I've got the impulse too, so I know it's hard to suppress.
#133707 - Optihut - Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:34 am
I like your posts and your sense of humour.
When all that IRC rumour "he said she said" BS was flooding into the forums, I was of the opinion to keep it on IRC and not drag down the forums with unsubstantiated hearsay. Now that the same person that was accused of poisoning the atmosphere on IRC is coming to the forums and is - imho, ymmv - poisoning the atmosphere here, the question is rather whether this should stand or whether people like Stonecypher should heed the basic rules of etiquette?
#133710 - dantheman - Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:44 am
I have a general respect for you Tepples. Like sajimori said, you sometimes tend to make corrections when they're not needed, or point out some obscure exceptions that nobody would think about, but I understand that many times you do it for the sake of humor, so I don't get as annoyed by them as I once did. Aside from that, you are usually knowledgeable about many subjects and can provide information when needed.
Oh, and I'm addicted to the NSF cover you made of Hotel California, that too. >_>
#133715 - masscat - Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:58 am
In an ideal world the moderators of a forums would not be actively involved in it but NDS homebrew is done for fun (underline underline) and for free so it will not happen.
I am happy and glad that people are willing to give up their time and effort to do it. Please tepples and the other moderates continue.
#133730 - trh - Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:41 am
| KeithE wrote: |
Not sick of you at all!
I have learned a lot reading your responses to many questions. You are always quick to respond, either with a helpful comment or question. |
Hear, hear.
#133735 - Lick - Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:09 am
I like you tepples.
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com
#133748 - keldon - Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:53 am
| Lick wrote: |
| I like you tepples. |
Awww, group hug ^_^
| wintermute wrote: |
| I'm hoping we can turn this into something a little more constructive than a mere voting contest and keep the random shit stirring to a minimum. |
It can, just refer back to my post on the attitude of the Internet. I stopped going to one forum for that reason, they were funny and had a lot of funny things to say. Long story short I just stopped using for no reason, then after a month or two I returned, making one post asking a person what she meant about "women being attracted to men who look nerdcore", saying that all the women magazines talk about it.
Suddenly I had an array of insults by the male members (clearly lacking female contact) starting a random argument about my questions. And everything I politely said was returned by more random insults. One of the legendary forum moderators personally felt to send me a pm to apologize in their behalf, explaining that this reception is the reason why many people left the forum and why many others don't stay.
Just consider what this does to the community; if they get BS upon entering GBA homebrew but not from another community such as GP32 or something then why will they return?
#133767 - wintermute - Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:21 pm
| keldon wrote: |
It can, just refer back to my post on the attitude of the Internet. I stopped going to one forum for that reason, they were funny and had a lot of funny things to say. Long story short I just stopped using for no reason, then after a month or two I returned, making one post asking a person what she meant about "women being attracted to men who look nerdcore", saying that all the women magazines talk about it.
|
hoping to get some tips on looking nerdcore? :P
| Quote: |
Suddenly I had an array of insults by the male members (clearly lacking female contact) starting a random argument about my questions. And everything I politely said was returned by more random insults. One of the legendary forum moderators personally felt to send me a pm to apologize in their behalf, explaining that this reception is the reason why many people left the forum and why many others don't stay.
|
This I find odd - if a moderator feels the need to apologise in PM then why didn't they do something in public?
Having said that, there are a couple of recent threads I've felt tempted to lock but I'm not entirely sure if I'd end up playing a game of whack a mole. I also thought about commenting on some of the behaviour involved but couldn't think of anything that wasn't likely to inflame the situation further. How do you go about defusing a flame war?
| Quote: |
Just consider what this does to the community; if they get BS upon entering GBA homebrew but not from another community such as GP32 or something then why will they return? |
I hear what you're saying.
What do we do about the BS? Do we delete it? Do we lock the threads and warn the participants? Are there other less inflammatory methods of dealing with problems?
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html is a useful document about internet etiquette which may be quite relevant.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing is an interesting section although I have met people who use the words written there as an excuse for downright rude behaviour.
On forums I think the main problem is the unfortunate habit of meeting fire with fire which never works. Have you ever seen a good method of dealing with this sort of thing?
While I'm on the subject, nice try with the asbestos sandals on one of those threads earlier, my compliments.
_________________
devkitPro - professional toolchains at amateur prices
devkitPro IRC support
Personal Blog
#133770 - keldon - Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:44 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| hoping to get some tips on looking nerdcore? :P |
So was I before I decided to ignore that part of the community.
| wintermute wrote: |
| This I find odd - if a moderator feels the need to apologise in PM then why didn't they do something in public? |
Well it was in the 'unmoderated' section of the forum where they only filter out porn, floods and revealing of personal information.
| wintermute wrote: |
What do we do about the BS? Do we delete it? Do we lock the threads and warn the participants? Are there other less inflammatory methods of dealing with problems?
On forums I think the main problem is the unfortunate habit of meeting fire with fire which never works. Have you ever seen a good method of dealing with this sort of thing? |
Well flaming is an attitude, not just a mere occurrence. Some people are more inclined to flame; I prefer to immediately neutralize these situations by (a) demonstrating how they could have got the message across less aggressively, and (b) giving direct, but inarguable statements about their behaviour.
I even felt it necessary to let the topic occupy half of my sig, not just to say that I choose not to argue but that we should all choose not to argue. Surely you can disagree with me that's fine. Even tell me that I am unprofessional, that's fine - but only providing it is not in an argumentative tone ^_^ (if you get what I mean).
Long story short just have a strict message about no flaming in the forum, and when the situation arises you need only reiterate the common message about being more polite and less childish .. and so on.
#133771 - tepples - Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:51 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| there are a couple of recent threads I've felt tempted to lock but I'm not entirely sure if I'd end up playing a game of whack a mole. |
The number one reason I didn't lock the StoneCypher topics was impartiality. If you want Whac-A-Mole, get this.
| Quote: |
| On forums I think the main problem is the unfortunate habit of meeting fire with fire which never works. Have you ever seen a good method of dealing with this sort of thing? |
Fight fire with water, water with grass, and grass with fire.
Maybe I should try keldon's idea of putting advice in my sig.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#133772 - keldon - Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:03 pm
| tepples wrote: |
Fight fire with water, water with grass, and grass with fire.
|
Oh the watery eyed memories of playing Pok?mon red and blue!
And eventually if everyone is of the mindset that personal attacks should be avoided then peer pressure should lead newcomers to adopt the friendly approach of the other forum members. But don't forget to add a smiley (for added friendliness).
#133776 - route66 - Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:36 pm
Maybe someone should start another thread and see if we are sick of StoneCypher.
#133779 - HtheB - Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:27 pm
*har har*!!!
ayee! :p
_________________
check out my projects:
http://www.HtheB.com
Donations are welcome ^^
#133811 - Dood77 - Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:26 pm
No tepples, I'm not sick of you.
I respect you for your insight, knowledge, humor, and time committed to the community. I don't view you as a role-model. I don't really think I would ever go out of my way to meet you in person, but I wouldn't mind it if you lived much closer.
Sometimes I've noticed you make comments that are funny, yet off-topic. Sometimes they're jokes that are a little too off-topic and that don't make sense to me right away, I find myself more often not taking the time to see what the joke is, and I just ignore the post and continue on. I figure no one bashes you for this because you're a mod, and usually its you who does the bashing. I won't go as far as to call this abuse of power either, because I've done almost the same thing on occasion. And granted, some of the things you post are quite funny, just on occasion they're off topic when the person still needs help, or when they are too much of an inside or out-there joke.
| route66 wrote: |
| Maybe someone should start another thread and see if we are sick of StoneCypher. |
Heh. I will say that even if there were past occurrences of the opposite situation, tepples' character through most of this mud-slinging has been overall mature. At least from what I've read on these forums, StoneCypher has been negative, overly critical, and occasionally hypocritical. I think he could have dealt with the situation using less remarks that were directed at a persons character, criticizing their achievements (or lack-of), and over exaggerating their mistakes.
Regardless of who is to blame; who gave wrongful advice; who flamed who, I stand that tepples handled the situation better overall than StoneCypher. And for that he keeps my respect.
| wintermute wrote: |
| What do we do about the BS? Do we delete it? Do we lock the threads and warn the participants? Are there other less inflammatory methods of dealing with problems? |
To forget past mistakes is to unlearn the lessons gained. And as such, most people will learn from their own experiences, the wiser people will learn from other's experiences. I'm not saying these threads should be stickied (lol) but once the flame war gets much too off topic, and repeating the same criticisms, etc. it should be locked, but not deleted, preferably by a moderator who's not participated in the flame war. (as I seen you've done already with one certain thread, wintermute) Granted, if the author of a post wanted to take something back, they should be allowed to.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#133816 - simonjhall - Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:47 pm
+1 on stickying these flame threads :-)
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#133871 - Lynx - Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:17 pm
I didn't even read everyones response because I think the topic is stupid.
Do I agree with you, no.. that's what an opinion is for. Do you do a good job of 'your job'? Yes. Having 10,000+ posts, your going to make a few people unhappy.. that is life. You don't agree with someone elses coding style? Again, that is opinion. You code one way, others code another, and even between "experts", people choose to do things different ways. People need to get over it. There are other people doing a lot more damage to the homebrew community than you.. yet.. they are still "in charge" to the point that they chase people away. I really only have two things to remember about topics like this.
1) People use the internet as if it is fantasy. Like an RPG, today they are a knight in shining armor, tomorrow they are a theif. So it's hard to take anyone's opinion seriously.
2) Apparently I'm to old to remember more than one thing.. *ugh*
So, from the looks of the negative posters.. I'd say, "Welcome to our side?"
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#133882 - wintermute - Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:08 pm
| simonjhall wrote: |
| +1 on stickying these flame threads :-) |
I'm not entirely convinced by that one.
What about a sin bin? A forum where flames get sent and locked? I've seen that done with spam and questions about pirating games on other forums.
Is either option too inflammatory?
_________________
devkitPro - professional toolchains at amateur prices
devkitPro IRC support
Personal Blog
#133886 - gauauu - Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:26 pm
Jumping back to the original conversation (I didn't check the board over the weekend, so I'm a little behind), I want to put in my 2 cents.
When I first started lurking here, I was AMAZED at how knowledgeable, helpful, and polite people were, particularly tepples. So I must say thank you for that, and all the hard work you've done.
But over time, I also have been rubbed a little the wrong way by some of the same things that others have mentioned, mainly the subtle sounds of self-superiority, what I would consider plain trolling in threads that you didn't agree with, and inappropriate self-promotion, like the luminesweeper/gleam thing.
So I didn't vote either way, as I'm not sick of you (you are one of the key helpful people in the scene), but I do wish you'd make an effort towards politeness and more mature tone.
#133910 - Optihut - Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:04 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| simonjhall wrote: | | +1 on stickying these flame threads :-) |
I'm not entirely convinced by that one.
What about a sin bin? A forum where flames get sent and locked? I've seen that done with spam and questions about pirating games on other forums.
Is either option too inflammatory? |
A sin bin is a good idea, but I wouldn't lock the threads there. It's better to have one subforum where flames and swearing is allowed, so that it stays out of the other forums.
#133914 - keldon - Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:45 pm
| Optihut wrote: |
| A sin bin is a good idea, but I wouldn't lock the threads there. It's better to have one subforum where flames and swearing is allowed, so that it stays out of the other forums. |
Though it may sound like a novel idea you can run the risk of it becoming an unsociable forum where bad behaviour grows! In fact that is how the most unsociable forum community (I have heard of) grew. All pointless threads, or threads that could not fit into any category (including off topic) were thrown into the "Garbage Can". If nobody posted in a thread for 30 days then the thread would be automatically deleted; however a community grew within that forum exhibiting anti-social and unfriendly behaviour.
They are the epitome of what is wrong with internet communication and attitudes!
#133921 - Optihut - Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:36 pm
| keldon wrote: |
Though it may sound like a novel idea you can run the risk of it becoming an unsociable forum where bad behaviour grows! In fact that is how the most unsociable forum community (I have heard of) grew. All pointless threads, or threads that could not fit into any category (including off topic) were thrown into the "Garbage Can". If nobody posted in a thread for 30 days then the thread would be automatically deleted; however a community grew within that forum exhibiting anti-social and unfriendly behaviour.
They are the epitome of what is wrong with internet communication and attitudes! |
Well, the forum for flames ("BBQ pit") worked wonders for the straight dope messageboard.
#133925 - keldon - Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:11 pm
Oh; that's like a friendly version of the Non-Music Related board (a.k.a. the Gutter, a.k.a. the Garbage Can)!
#133990 - Dood77 - Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:53 am
| Optihut wrote: |
| A sin bin is a good idea, but I wouldn't lock the threads there. It's better to have one subforum where flames and swearing is allowed, so that it stays out of the other forums. |
The problem is that it wouldn't stay out of the other forums, bad feelings spawned toward another person in the flame threads will show through in posts in the other forums.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#134065 - silent_code - Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:32 pm
hi tepples.
i know you can sound a bit harsh and provocative, but i found you're a great help for ppl. actually i got used to your "style" of answering with questions.
i guess a part of the "problem" is also your "condition". smileys should fix that. ;^) works for me.
you have your flaws, like anyone else, but all in all you're ok, really.
Last edited by silent_code on Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
#134067 - silent_code - Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:38 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| StoneCypher wrote: | | Presumption of superiority. |
Example?
... |
that's exactly the tepples i *really* like! :^) it's all about hard facts, without tepples there would be a lot more plain claims and unproven statements. :^D
ps: sorry for the double post, but i couldn't resist!
#134076 - kusma - Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:32 pm
I like tepples very straight-forward way of working with issues, but he can (as other aspies I know) have problems reading situations - and to some extent expressing his emotional state. I don't necessarily think either of these two are bad, it's just different from what some other people might be used to.
#134236 - sgeos - Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:00 pm
Keep up the good work. You can't get along with everybody.
-Brendan
#135275 - tepples - Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:31 pm
Epilogue: This straw poll was running 3 sick to 4 not sick early on, but it ended at 5 sick to 39 not sick. Take that how you will.
| BigRedPimp wrote: |
| Case in point: Luminesweeper vs Gleam. |
I seem to remember having apologized for this, stating that my claims were worded inaccurately. I never meant that Gleam sucked, only that it wasn't really the "Lumines clone" that Kotaku and other news sites were making it out to be.
| wintermute wrote: |
| Like Simon I often find it difficult to tell if you're asking, telling or stating. |
This goes back to a recommendation from behavior counselor who was assigned to me in high school soon after my diagnosis was changed from ADHD to Asperger syndrome. He suggested that I disguise my corrections as questions. (Incidentally, transforming statements into rhetorical questions is also a characteristic of Hebonics.)
| wintermute wrote: |
| Some posts, like the recent printf backspacing thread seem like a carefully engineered setup in order to air some criticism of other people or their code. |
I try not to criticize people, just their code. Specifically with regard to criticism of library features, it's possible for code to conform to all the rules that implementations of a given standard MUST follow yet still be a pain to use because it fails to implement enough SHOULDs or because it fails to implement other widely recognized standards.
| wintermute wrote: |
| In other places I've found your methods of promoting yourself a little on the distasteful side, best example was what almost amounted to stalking of the Gleam author. |
When Gleam is all over the first page of Google results (which it still is), and almost all these results call Gleam a "Lumines clone" rather than "inspired by Lumines", is it really stalking? How should I have acted?
| wintermute wrote: |
| Somewhere I critcised you for phrasing feature requests as questions in barely related topics which resulted in you taking me rather literally with the "I suggest" thing. |
When asked to do something reasonable, especially by somebody with the authority that comes with moderator privileges, I do it. I don't want to start a wheel war.
| Dood77 wrote: |
| To forget past mistakes is to unlearn the lessons gained. |
Which is why forgive and forget works for God but not as well for humans. There is a middle option: forgive and anonymize.
| silent_code wrote: |
| it's all about hard facts, without tepples there would be a lot more plain claims and unproven statements. :^D |
Then I hope you like my new style that arose out of this event. I will try to follow citing practices more like those of an online encyclopedia when I feel it necessary.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
![[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]](http://feeds.feedburner.com/StoneHome.gif){kind=link}