#137918 - keldon - Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:40 pm
http://uk.eternityii.com/
It's hard but has a prize of $2M if you can solve it.
#137979 - Dood77 - Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:36 am
Neat idea, I wonder if they will actually make more money than they are giving away...
I did the online version in 2 minutes an 47 seconds by the way.
(online has 16 pieces, the real one has 256 :-/)
EDIT: If I calculated correctly, there are 2765952 different combinations for the 256 piece puzzle, keeping the corner pieces in the corners and the side pieces on the sides.
Hmm... I guess I didn't compensate for different rotations of the same result. Would I just divide my number by 4? (that still leaves 691488 :P)
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#137990 - DekuTree64 - Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:42 am
2:03 for my first try, 1:33 for the second.
Definitely fun, but the price tag on the real one is just a bit too high to give it a shot. That, and I'd lose an entire week to it.
_________________
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The best optimization is to do nothing at all.
Therefore a fully optimized program doesn't exist.
-Deku
#137999 - keldon - Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:57 am
Well actually the real one has 256! * 4^256 possible combinations, which is about 1e+661. Of course the fact that there are corner pieces and a centre piece reduces it a little bit.
When you consider the corners and the outer border cannot rotate, you get ((4! * 56!) * ((14*14)! * 4^(14*14))) == ((4! * 56!) * (196! * 4^196)) == ((1.7e+76) * ( 5.1e+483)) == 8.7e+559; which is not much different from the first figure.
Now everyone is talking about genetic algorithms. Although I am considering an attempt using that I think you need a much smarter type of GA. The reason being is that GA's are good for finding "good" solutions but not necessarily the best solution. There are estimated to be between 10^72 and 10^87 particles in the universe! Also consider that evolution has not yet created the perfect being.
The problem also appears to be NP complete!
#138038 - phonymike - Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:52 pm
but see the real problem here is not the math needed for how many pieces there are, it's for how many people will pay to try their chance at winning the prize, when the prize has already been won. read the rules, the contest doesn't stop when someone completes the big puzzle. winning entries will be 'locked in a vault' for the next year and a half, at which time they will open it and declare the winner (the first person in the past year and a half that solved it.) so if I paid to do it right now, and completed it in say 2 days. big deal. it'll be a year and a half before I know if I've won the $2 million prize. but I guarantee you several people have already completed the puzzle. therefore if you play, you're out ?39.99 cause somebody's beat you to it, and have 0 chance at the prize even if you do complete it. it's luck a fricken pyramid scheme!
Sorta like the pbfcomic :)
#138039 - keldon - Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:02 pm
Nope, the problem is technically unsolvable without a very clever routine (currently unknown to man). A 2048-bit allows for 3e+616 possible numbers, this problem has 3e+44 times the amount of possible variations. This problem also appears to be NP Complete, or maybe just NP hard since being NP complete would make it just about unsolvable.
The last one of these, which was much simpler took 8 years before a solution came about.
#138047 - Miked0801 - Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:28 am
1:34 and I got lucky. Hard.
#138050 - Ant6n - Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:46 am
well, if there are 'thousands or solutions', one could try putting more constraints into the problem. i dunno, but maybe an algorithm that puts pieces into place until the solution is recognizably false (i.e. impossible to solve from that point on) would generate a tree that is not too big? one could try using a heuristic to place items, like balancing the remaining colors.
#138052 - phonymike - Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:52 am
if this puzzle is "technically unsolvable" then why don't they end the contest once the first person solves it? why do they wait almost a year and a half to reveal the results? because it's a dick move on their part to sucker people into giving them money in which 0% of them have a chance to win once one person solves it. and the numbers of possibilities fricken billions and billions. yeah the pieces can be arranged in that many formations, but they won't fit together with the other pieces. this puzzle can be solved by a human in a matter of a few days if even that, and the creators know this. so people go and drop ?39.99 thinking they have a chance of winning, and then realize they're pry the 100th person to solve it, and they won't find out that they've lost for another year and a half. the scheme would be totally different if it took every winner, and divided the money up amongst them, but no, it goes to the first person that solves it.
so to sum it up, the contest goes for a year and a half, the first person (who has already solved it) has won, so any new entries have 0% chance of winning, and have spent ?39.99 to play a stupid little game thinking they had even a slight chance at winning. you guys do see the (brilliant) scam right?
#138056 - Lick - Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:51 am
| Quote: |
| "On 31st December all solutions will be opened in date order received and the first person with a complete solution wins $2million." |
Wouldn't it be smarted to uhm... pick a winner by the time used in which he completed the puzzle?
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#138062 - Dood77 - Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:44 am
Not smarter in business sense.
Couldn't someone program a simple program to brute-force this thing?
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#138068 - keldon - Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:35 am
Phoneymike, do you understand the complexity of an NP complete problem? And no brute force is not going to find a solution with brute force alone. Look at the size of the problem; 8.7e+559. You may find a solution but it would be unwise to assume it is easily solvable.
Check out the Eternity II Yahoo Groups, there are plenty of knowledgeable people trying to solve it using computation.
The wait of two years is more [IMO] about publicity, since it gives a reason for a news headline. "Today is the unveiling of the solutions, there are no solutions"; as opposed to there being no headlines. And it would most likely increase sales from people by increasing the need to buy it quickly. I will say it again - NP Hard/Complete. And though there are some good solutions to NP problems; the complexity of this problem when converted would be astronomical.
I've sent this problem to my university lecturers, Soren Riis and Paulo Olivia.
#138097 - phonymike - Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:19 pm
it really depends on the pieces. on a wiki it claims there are 8 colors not counting the edge colors. if there's an equal amount of each color, then it'd be pretty easy, just solve a small portion (say a quarter) and copy it over the board. but this would be too easy, I doubt they have equal amounts of each color.
but what I'm saying is it's easier than you think. one website claimed it would take a computer 10^20 years to compute the answer. what kind of bullshit is that? and again calculating those high numbers 8.7e+559 is incorrect. yes you can place all the pieces in random orders randomly rotated, but the pieces have to interlock together. that's like saying there's 7 billion people in this world you could meet and fall in love with, however I'm not gay so that cuts out half of them. bad analogy I know but you get the point :)
I saw an ad on craigslist stating "I bought this on the weekend to get the extra clues for the main puzzle. Now that I have solved it, I no longer need these puzzles." this person claims to have solved the main puzzle. so either this person has won the 2 million, or somebody before them has won. so the contest is over. ever person who buys this puzzle in hopes of even a slight chance of winning are being tricked because they now have a 0% chance of winning. the puzzle is not impossible, many people have already solved it, and every person who buys it has absolutely no chance of winning anything.
#138102 - Dood77 - Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:26 pm
It's still fun for the puzzle's sake...
_________________
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Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#138105 - keldon - Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:58 pm
| phonymike wrote: |
| I saw an ad on craigslist stating "I bought this on the weekend to get the extra clues for the main puzzle. Now that I have solved it, I no longer need these puzzles." this person claims to have solved the main puzzle. so either this person has won the 2 million, or somebody before them has won. so the contest is over. ever person who buys this puzzle in hopes of even a slight chance of winning are being tricked because they now have a 0% chance of winning. the puzzle is not impossible, many people have already solved it, and every person who buys it has absolutely no chance of winning anything. |
Wrong; he's talking about the mini puzzle, which gives you two pieces of the puzzle.There are not 8 colours, there are 17+5 colours not counting the edge colours. And yes you don't have exactly 8.7e+559 possibilities, but 10^20 sounds about right for a brute force solution. Even simple chess games do not use brute force alone as it is weak for searching NP problems.
Solving a portion of it will not help either, the whole difficulty of NP hard problems is that you have to get yourself deep into the tree before you can be sure you are not heading to a solution. And like I said, many experienced mathematicians are researching into this - with many believing it to be impossible but are trying it anyway.
Really, read up on NP hard problems and artificial intelligence. When you have a better understanding of problem complexity you'll probably laugh at it all.
To get an understanding of NP hard problems, consider all the roads around you in your town - say 50 roads. Now think of a new delivery company who wishes to deliver to each house but only wants to travel the shortest possible distance. Sure finding a short distance is fairly easy, but this company needs to compete with DeliveryCo, and they must have the fastest possible route. That problem is NP hard. Each new road junction makes the problem grow exponentially.
That's not to say it will never be solved; but really it's not as 'simple' as "just make an algorithm". I've taken part in algorithm competitions so I'm used to looking at problems and creating solutions to them quickly; and I took "algorithms and complexity" as modules in my uni studies as well as "genetic algorithms" and AI - so I'm not a stranger these topics.
Of course I do have my own approach which I'm working on.
#138114 - phonymike - Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:30 am
is there any way to get these pieces on the internet without having to purchase their game (and thus buying into their scam?) I remember reading some website a while ago, this guy created an online game similar to chess, but to win you had to enclose the four horses or something. he claimed it was a very simple game to learn, even kids could do it, yet nobody could write a computer program that could beat him. he was offering a $2,000 reward for anyone who could write such a program (something like that.)
also I wouldn't have a problem with the game if their rules weren't based on a scam.
p.s. the person did email me saying they did not complete the puzzle yet so that was my bad. proper english people!
#138118 - keldon - Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:42 am
Why do you keep coming to a scam? The game is invented by Lord Christopher Monckton, endorsed by Tomy and is known by established news companies. And they paid out the first prize in full.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/953316.stm
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Eternity.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/992393.stm
The people who solved the first puzzle are believed to have been involved in making this puzzle more difficult to solve; and the inclusion of the starter piece makes it a lot harder since it forces you to use a limited set of solutions.
#138130 - phonymike - Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:44 am
| Lick wrote: |
| Quote: | | "On 31st December all solutions will be opened in date order received and the first person with a complete solution wins $2million." |
Wouldn't it be smarted to uhm... pick a winner by the time used in which he completed the puzzle? |
if they didn't market it with the $2 million, then it would just be another crummy puzzle that costs $1 to produce. yet these asshats have the gull to market it at $50usd, claiming you have a chance at $2 million. well once someone solves it (which they do not tell when,) you are now spending $50usd on a puzzle and wasting your time. for all you know the puzzle has been solved, someone's already won the $2 million. so everyone who purchases this puzzle, all these mathematician geniuses and all, are wasting their time to solve a stupid little puzzle because not only do they not win, but someone's already solved it. do you understand this? why are you trying to solve this puzzle?
don't you think it's odd that they don't declare the winner until december 31st 2009? wouldn't it be more fair to people to declare the winner the momment someone submits a correct answer, instead of tricking people into thinking they can actually win?
#138132 - laos - Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:54 am
Its true, its a marketing scam, However there IS a 2 million dollar prize
the reason why its at 2009 is so they keep having money pouring in,
lets say 1 million copies are sold
50 million dollars
okay, 500,000
25 million dollars
EVEN ONLY 100,000 COPIES
5 million dollars
50,000 copies
2.5 million
Its a begged profit. And since its a wait till 2009. They most CERTAINLY get their money and then some
_________________
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In charge of Storyline: Tales of Dagur 2
#138133 - phonymike - Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:01 am
yeah, this puzzle may be fantastic and all, but that's nothing compared to the amount of money they're making on suckers. if the puzzle was so amazing, don't you think they'd tell the public once the discover happens? but no they don't, they sit back and rake in more money for the next year and a half.
like if someone found a cure for cancer, but didn't tell anyone untill the year 2015. wouldn't that suck? lots of time and research will be wasted finding the cure when they could have shared the discovery and then research could be moved forward. just like this game, once someone wins, they should tell people, so people don't waste their time and money trying to solve it. but they don't tell you, they rake in the money, giving people false hopes. it's a scam.
#138136 - laos - Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:32 am
one answer
Humans,
We are human and 90% of us in daily life do actions to benefit ourselves rather others when it comes to choosing in for a group/organization or yourself
_________________
laos,
In charge of Storyline: Tales of Dagur 2
#138152 - keldon - Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:12 am
| phonymike wrote: |
yeah, this puzzle may be fantastic and all, but that's nothing compared to the amount of money they're making on suckers. if the puzzle was so amazing, don't you think they'd tell the public once the discover happens? but no they don't, they sit back and rake in more money for the next year and a half.
like if someone found a cure for cancer, but didn't tell anyone untill the year 2015. wouldn't that suck? lots of time and research will be wasted finding the cure when they could have shared the discovery and then research could be moved forward. just like this game, once someone wins, they should tell people, so people don't waste their time and money trying to solve it. but they don't tell you, they rake in the money, giving people false hopes. it's a scam. |
mike, what I'm saying is why do you call it a scam? Are you suggesting the money will not be paid? Or are you suggesting the puzzle is in fact easy?
Again I will ask you a simple question, do you know about NP hardness? Have you ever tried to solve one using algorithms? Are you aware that there are thousands of experienced mathematicians, including grandmaster chess champions and world class programmers who have more faith in it not being solved easily. Do you also know about algorithmic complexity?
I'm asking this because like I said, I've studied (a) algorithms and complexity, (b) artificial intelligence and (c) computational genomics. The branching factor is exponentially hard. Honestly, do you seriously think an polynomial time algorithm is easy for an exponential problem.
If you say it is easy to compute, then tell me how you suspect this. Nobody has come close to finishing it, with the first one people were able to get far in the puzzle - but here people fail to get that far past half of the board.
But to highlight the point in bold in case you're skimming; without an understanding of algorithmic time complexity, and decision problems it is impossible to properly debate. If you would like to discuss the difficulty of the puzzle please follow the links otherwise you like a death man discussing sound ^_^
#138186 - phonymike - Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:05 pm
yes I realize it is very difficult. but you just don't get it. it is possible. it's just a stupid little puzzle. no I may not be able to solve it in a couple days, or months, or even years, but someone will. I understand you've studied complex puzzles and all that. I get it. what you seem to overlook is the simple fact that they don't end the contest the moment someone solves it. why? because they'll make money giving people false hopes of winning. if the contest ends once someone solves it (for all you know someone has,) then why would anyone spend $50 on a stupid puzzle and waste their time if they had no chance of winning $2 million dollars.
read my post, please. read any of my posts in this topic. I've answered your questions multiple times but it's not clicking with you. of all the advanced algorithms you're capable of thinking and solving, you can't see a scam in front of your face. I believe the money will be paid out, because of all the people who purchase this game will give enough profit to cover it as laos clearly pointed out (read his post too.) but the company is cheating people out of their $50 by not telling when the solution is found. once the solution is found, nobody would buy the game if they didn't have a chance to win $2 million dollars, but they don't tell you, so people still buy the game hoping to win. it simply can't get any more clear than that dude. it's a stupid puzzle!
if this puzzle is so impossible, why not send me your pieces, any sort of data file you can send them as. I'm not gonna solve it (it's near impossible right?) so what do you have to lose? send me the pieces, because the possibility of me solving it before you do is much higher than the possibility of you solving it first and winning $2 million.
#138188 - keldon - Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:48 pm
A scam is a very powerful term to give to something. A "stupid little puzzle" is again a big term to give to something; the sliding puzzle is a deceptively difficult puzzle. Sure you can always find a solution, it's not hard to do; but what is hard is to find the shortest possible solution. I can think up thousands of unsolvable puzzles that are impossible to solve easily, honestly it's not hard. If you are thinking that it's not easy to make impossible puzzles then know that impossible puzzles are easy to make, what is hard is making them fun.
Like I said, there are countless mathematicians working on this; if it were so "easy" they would all be optimistic that there is a solution. The man behind it is a bit of a marketing and PR genius, so setting up the competition like this actually gives it more publicity and incentive. Sure someone 'could' have solved it before the scrutiny date, but the chances are surprisingly low. I would call it a scam if the puzzle was easy, but it most certainly is not. A human is unlikely to find it by chance due to the high branching factor, and it takes time to be able to find properties that make these types of puzzle easier to solve (if there are any).
I'm not suggesting it is totally impossible, but calling it a scam is extremely far fetched. And suggesting that the puzzle is easy is way off the mark of common sense, if he wants to make the most money he would make it more difficult to solve so that the game goes on for longer - of course you could argue that due to the nature of PLC's that it is better to have it solvable in due time. But as it currently stands there is no known approach (for this case) that will find a solution while any of us are alive, including distributed computation, as they will not reduce complexity.
Edge matching puzzles are believed to be NP Complete - the hardest of all problems in the class of NP. This puzzle may not be, but it is certainly far from being a "simple puzzle".
#138192 - DekuTree64 - Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:29 pm
Still, I think it would make more sense to announce the winner right away. At least for me, that bit of uncertainty wether I'm totally wasting my money makes me much less likely to buy it (and has obviously convinced mike that it's an outright scam). If it's really that difficult, then surely the money from people buying it AFTER it has been solved will be less than the potential money from people who were turned off by the chance of wasting it.
_________________
___________
The best optimization is to do nothing at all.
Therefore a fully optimized program doesn't exist.
-Deku
#138193 - phonymike - Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:45 pm
so do you have the pieces in some sort of data format? would you mind sharing them with me? sure you've been scammed out of $50 to get them, but wouldn't it be worth sharing them with me to solve such a nearly impossible puzzle? you keep avoiding (all) of my questions. reread my posts and maybe you'll see them. sure the puzzle is difficult, I could make a puzzle just like it and it'd be just as difficult. take colors in square shapes, form a random pattern, and chop it up. the only difference is nobody would buy my stupid little puzzle, because I'm not offering $2 millions dollars. the same way nobody would buy this puzzle if they knew someone already completed it.
believe me, it's just a stupid little puzzle, people buy it, and the makers gain a profit. this is called marketing, which you seem to have no concept of. I'm not insulting your intelligence, but you clearly have no idea what marketing is, and it's funny how all these 'geniuses' have bought into it. the only genius here is the guy that thought of making a stupid puzzle, then setting a high valued prize, then setting a far off date to reveal the winner. this guy is a marketing genius, smarter than any of these mathematical geniuses, because while these mathematical geniuses not only pay $50 to try to solve this stupid child's puzzle, the guy who thought of it sits back on his yacht drinking wine and laughing all the way to the bank.
so, would you mind sharing with me anything, I promise any results will be yours to submit. 2 heads are better than one.
#138194 - keldon - Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:50 pm
Well supposing the puzzle is not solved by that date, what gives you the bigger headline? "", or "Today is the unveiling of the Eternity II puzzle results, so far it has not been solved"?
I really don't think it's that big of a deal, the only people who will solve it will be using computers - he should be hailed as a marketing genius for making maths "fun". And I understand marketing, I'm no stranger to it. The point you put against it are probably the keys to its success, I mean it's a massive puzzle. Puzzles are boring!
I have the pieces in a data format, but what exactly would you do to solve the puzzle? If you're thinking of trying all possible solutions you're going to be disappointed, as well as simple heuristic searches. But come and join the Yahoo group and give some of the puzzles a try.
And I haven't bought it yet myself, I'm working with a friend so she's the one who paid for it and spent the last few days ensuring I have the data done correctly. Sharing it breaches the rules and means that if I do find the solution first I am not eligible for the prize; however eternity2.net has a simple data file format, and I could send you some sample problems (or you can download them from the Yahoo group).
#138200 - phonymike - Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:45 am
you gotta love this. on their website it claims you'll be in breach of copyright if you tell other people the pieces. people pirate software all day long, images and movies. who's gonna give a rat's ass about a puzzle. and this is even better, a dude on ebay selling the solution to one of the smaller puzzles (2 more ways to get suckers' money.)
| Quote: |
Q: Continuing copyright infraction may be regarded by the court as vexatious, greatly increasing the damages awarded against you and against eBay. - M of B Aug-20-07
A: If you hold copyright over my numeric representation of a way to solve a puzzle you have to provide me with this information since I submitted a copyright request myself and the copyright office replied it's impossible to copyright such thing. If this is the case please provide ebay with a document/picture of my solution (which you haven't seen yet) to proof you actually got a list of numbers that matched mine. Until then I think you should reconsider your position because I think the tables might be reversed and harassing people who are distributing non-copyrighted work assumming is yours might backfire badly. If you do hold a copyright for every possible solution of a given puzzle and you are also able to proof that I provide exactly that solution right at this second, post in here a link to your copyright proof of such thing otherwise I assume you are just a spammer. I searched the copyright database for my combination and I found nothing. Regards. |
it's just a puzzle, created as a commercial product, to make money. it was not handed down to Christopher Monckton by god himself. it's a marketing ploy (better term than scam,) you have better chances at winning a $150 million lotto by buying $50 in lotto tickets than you do at buying this game and wasting your time trying to solve it. you have even a better chance at getting struck by lighting three times in your life than you do at being the first to solve this puzzle. I'll see if I can remember to check all the winners in a year and a half from now, I hope to see you on the list. good luck.
#138205 - Dood77 - Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:20 am
You don't seem to get it phonymike. People aren't buying this puzzle honestly thinking they can be the first to solve it and get 2 million, they get it for the fun and sense of accomplishment of solving it. Some people like solving problems, and many board games and puzzles are over or close to $50 anyway.
If you wanna have it out for businesses taking advantage of their consumers, have a row with the tobacco industry.
And heres a protip: Don't ever tell anyone you don't know personally that they don't know anything about something.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#138212 - zAlbee - Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:12 am
Hey phonymike,
It seems like you're saying that because they want to make as many people buy their puzzle as possible, it's a scam. I guess it's a scam for a company to make a profit, it's a scam for a company to use marketing, and unless this toy company is horribly bankrupted by having to pay $2 million (which they didn't have to do) without enough sales to recuperate, it's a scam.
Heaven forbid that they get people excited about their contest (and that's what this is, a contest) by setting a looming deadline, and using a mysterious locked "safe." And then they have the GALL to make money by selling to customers? Appalling! They should be giving away the $2 million dollars just to anyone who tries! </sarcasm>
| Quote: |
you have better chances at winning a $150 million lotto by buying $50 in lotto tickets than you do at buying this game and wasting your time trying to solve it. you have even a better chance at getting struck by lighting three times in your life than you do at being the first to solve this puzzle. |
So you can spend $1 per lottery ticket (let's say 649 - pick 6 numbers from 1-49), which requires absolutely no skill, and nets you 1 in 10 billion chance of winning regardless of who you are.
Or you can actually use your brain and solve an interesting puzzle, which is a fun challenge in itself. If you one of the few to solve it, you have an extremely good chance of winning (if 50 people can solve it, all you have to do is be the first). In this one, having a brain actually increases your chances. Some of use actually prefer that - maybe you do not?
_________________
DS Lite white, R4DS, 1GB Kingmax microSD
#138217 - phonymike - Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:19 am
I wouldn't worry about the company going down into bankruptcy. I read something about how someone in the company had to sell his house to pay off last time. but keep reading cause it turned out to be publicity (you guys call it publicity, I call it bullshit.)
| Quote: |
| The original game, marketed by Ertl, sold just under 500,000 worldwide, in 18 months. Tomy anticipates sales of one million for the new version with some 500,000 of those in Europe. |
just on projected sales figures, even if they sell half of what the first one did, they'll still be making plenty of money even after they pay off whoever wins. not to mention it's only a few sheets of cardboard with ink on it (money well spent.) you don't even get any dice or anything! this thing probably costs little more than a deck of cards to produce.
but the real problem again for the fifth time is that the box claims you could win. however once this child's puzzle is solved, then it immediately becomes false advertising. all this hype becomes false advertising the moment someone submits a correct answer. when's the last time you spent $50 on a puzzle in which you couldn't win a prize? please, make something up and reply with it.
does anyone agree with this statement: they should end the contest once a correct answer has been submitted.
I'd like to see how many responses with "no they shouldn't end the contest, they should keep everybody's hopes high then smash them at a predetermined time. whilst keeping their $50."
#138220 - keldon - Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:14 am
| Quote: |
| but the real problem again for the fifth time is that the box claims you could win. however once this child's puzzle is solved, then it immediately becomes false advertising |
If your problem with it is that you don't find out the winner until 2009 that's fine, but from a marketing point of view that is actually better. Also note that the puzzle is actually too difficult realistically expect a normal person to solve it, and too difficult to expect a simple algorithm to solve it. So the whole statement about a child having as much chance as an adult at solving it is technically correct - they both have no chance!
I would like to know if someone has solved it right away, of course, but "better" can be interpreted in so many ways. Better for me yes, but better from a marketing point of view - no. Whatever he's done he's managed to get 500,000 people doing a puzzle. You said it yourself, nobody would buy your puzzle without the marketing. The only reason the first one was solved so easily is because they made a huge mistake with its design and built it to be too big, had it had been smaller it would have been more difficult to solve.
If you can tell me a good method of how you expect an algorithm to solve it in polynomial time I will personally send you my Game Cube by mail - and that is no lie!
#138224 - phonymike - Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:25 am
sorry, just as this topic was settling down I stirred the pot. my bad. normally I love having flame wars, but the message in your sig led me to discuss this topic in a whole new light (without arguing.) I have just as much a plan to solve this puzzle as I do use for a gamecube (I have a wii.) my only motivation to solve this puzzle (if there were any) would be to expose it. if I were to solve this puzzle, I'd post the solution on the internet. not because I would spoil it for anybody, it would just let them know that now they have no chance at any money, and if I could solve it then I'm sure many more have done so before me.
I found the link I mentioned earlier, I think you'll really like it. it's called Arimaa. it's a simple game using pieces from a chess set. the creator claims it is difficult for computers to play, and so far humans are best at it. he even offers a $17,000 prize for anyone who can program the game to defeat humans. wouldn't it be funny if in the end some kids solved this puzzle opposed to some mathematicians and their super computers?
I would divulge any ideas I have to solve such puzzles, but I wouldn't want someone else to steal my idea and run off with $2 million now would I? what a great puzzle it is, putting geniuses against each other.
#138226 - keldon - Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:13 pm
Hmm, I'll look into that. But in our uni the lecturer who specializes in algorithms and complexity is also a grand master chess player - the weakness of AI is understanding intelligence itself.
A kid solving it would be funny, but consider people with autism and the like. I know this one guy who has a rare form of dyslexia that has two amazing traits: photographic memory and the ability to spot patterns.
If you would like to get into solving the puzzle the join the Yahoo group; the trick to solving it is not computation but in reducing the search space as much as possible. The first one was solved because they found a property of rigidity, such that some pieces are less flexible than others, so you should begin by placing those pieces on the board.
I assure you these types of puzzles are highly addictive from both a human and computational perspective.
#138232 - gauauu - Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:34 pm
| phonymike wrote: |
| does anyone agree with this statement: they should end the contest once a correct answer has been submitted. |
I disagree. I think it's pure genius the way they do it. I'm all for smart marketing as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. And no, I don't believe this hurts anyone. Anyone buying the game knows they take the risk that the contest has already been won.
(edit: fixed spelling of "contest")
#138406 - viruseb - Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:41 pm
As to me, if by an insolent chance I find a solution to this puzzle I will not submit the solution to their 'trunk'.
Much better to blackmail them threatening to reveal the solution so nobody will ever buy the puzzle anymore...
I'm sure we can stir up the 2M$ this way.
#138409 - Dood77 - Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:17 pm
I don't think they'll take someone seriously who tries that, and sales would still continue even if the solution was revealed, but they would obviously slow down.
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#167980 - keldon - Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:45 am
http://uk.eternityii.com/latestnewsmanager/Prize-announcement/
It was not solved; now I'm quite surprised since some of the guys on the forum were talking like they had found something clever - seems they were only 'close' but no cigar!
Part of the reason I lost interest was because of to the sly comment that implied they had the ability to solve it (legally they can't say they've solved it otherwise they lose the rights to the prize) .. of course it is good strategy to discourage others from getting a higher score (if that was their intention).
#169265 - wallacoloo - Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:00 am
As of the beginning of December 31, 2008, nobody has solved it.
http://uk.eternityii.com/latestnewsmanager/Prize-announcement/
"The Eternity II puzzle remains unsolved following the first scrutiny date, 31st December 2008. Hundreds of excellent entries were submitted, but none were complete solutions."
I wouldn't buy it unless you'll actually have fun playing it. I wouldn't have much fun doing that lol. Looks pretty boring...
#169266 - wallacoloo - Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:02 am
I'm sorry, I didn't see that there were 3 pages and that Keldon had already posted what I just did...
#169626 - elwing - Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:16 pm
| phonymike wrote: |
| if this puzzle is "technically unsolvable" then why don't they end the contest once the first person solves it? why do they wait almost a year and a half to reveal the results? |
because even if the problem in unsolvable, there might still be chance that someone randomly try something and find the solution by pure luck (there's 1chance over 1^550 after all...) by "locking" their game for 2years, they asure that they avoid being forced to "drop" the price too quickly and stop selling their games, and as it was mantionned it gives the oportunity for a marketing action after two years to remind people that there's still a 2Million price running...