#153443 - melw - Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:05 pm
I just happened to notice on VG Charts that nearly 70 million of Nintendo DS's have been sold so far, and the pace isn't really slowing down much. What crossed my mind is that surely out of 70 million DS's there must quite a bunch being able to run homebrew. It's really hard to estimate as there doesn't seem to be any information available on how many flash adapters are being sold - but at least reading Kotaku and other gaming websites, the gamers generally seem to know about these things. Also, ELSPA claims that up to 90 percent of North American DS owners have a R4 or similar adapter. This figure just sounds like a huge over-estimation to me...
Any guesses on how many people actually have the means to run homebrew? Also, how many actually care about the freely available stuff, not just pirating games? It would be also interesting to know how many downloads there's for popular homebrew applications like Moonshell or DSOrganize.
So, just a wild guess on my behalf: 20 million DS users have capasity to run homebrew, 19 million are sadly only after piracy and one million use homebrew (if not anything else, running a pre-installed Moonshell as a mp3 player). Out of the million, 250k users have actually downloaded homebrew games and/or applications.
#153445 - simonjhall - Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:16 pm
Yeah I've often wondered about that. As you say, the majority is probably of flash cards sold are for piracy, and the people who own the cards aren't aware that they can run non-commercial software with them. I think that it'd be really hard to make estimates based on DS or flash card sales. A lot of my friends who have a DS have two, ie a phat and a lite. Plus there are weirdos like me who own more than a couple of flash cards ;-)
One way I can think of estimating the number of users would be to look at the major homebrew sites and see how many users they have / downloads they get etc. Looking at the download count for the DKA installer, there are probably tens of thousands of people out there with the toolchain at least on their machine... (well done guys!!)
Taking the web stats for the stuff I've done as a rough metric and multiplying it by the moonshell + DSO funk factor I reckon 100-250k sounds about right. But I bet the majority of those people have only run one or two programs - it's probably more like 20k people who are full-blown homebrewers. I dunno! Anyone else wanna guess?
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#153450 - Lick - Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:13 pm
Web stats aren't really reliable as well. Social news web sites like Digg and Reddit will generate lots of hits, but it doesn't mean that those hits are coming from real users of your software.
_________________
http://licklick.wordpress.com
#153457 - Tikker - Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:17 am
Doesn't DM have stats for the number of unique hits, and which flash carts they're running (for DSO) ?
#153465 - melw - Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:54 am
| Tikker wrote: |
| Doesn't DM have stats for the number of unique hits, and which flash carts they're running (for DSO) ? |
Yep: DSO Homebrew Database statistics
Although that's total connects, but at the end of the page there's top 10 downloads, which has NDSMail holding #1 position with 18k downloads. Again, there's no data about how many downloads are from different DS's, but at least that gives some sort of direction for any kind of estimates.
#153466 - simonjhall - Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:12 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| Web stats aren't really reliable as well. Social news web sites like Digg and Reddit will generate lots of hits, but it doesn't mean that those hits are coming from real users of your software. |
Yeah, I was just looking at total downloads of the actual game files but I have noticed some big fat digg spikes ;-)
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#153513 - no2pencil - Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:09 am
| melw wrote: |
Any guesses on how many people actually have the means to run homebrew? Also, how many actually care about the freely available stuff, not just pirating games? |
For those keeping count, I know of 2. 3 if you include myself.
_________________
-#2pencil
#153695 - dantheman - Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:43 am
I've gotten several people interested in DS Homebrew with PocketPhysics alone, and Colors! to a lesser extent.
#153738 - melw - Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Only project I have sound information about is Dicewars DS. 4000 downloads and 300 online players by the end of March 2008. Simon, what kind of figures do you have for Quake?
| danteman wrote: |
| I've gotten several people interested in DS Homebrew with PocketPhysics alone, and Colors! to a lesser extent. |
I've got few friends who bought a DS because of Colors! - says something about the effect homebrew can have. :)
#153740 - Tikker - Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:16 pm
there's about 5 or 6 others at work that have gone the flashcart + homebrew route since I showed them my R4 + M3 lite
#153758 - simonjhall - Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:31 am
A lot of people where I work have homebrew enabled PSPs and DSes. Surprising, considering where I work ;-)
Anyway, I've had ~300k hits on the web page in the last year, ~15k Q2 downloads (it's only been out six weeks though) and 40-60k for Q1. That's what Google Analytics tells me anyway.
I have done four releases of the two games though, so I'd imagine that's gotta be factored in somehow.
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#153761 - sonny_jim - Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm
I've heard through the grapevine that even official Nintendo developers use R4's over the official device that Nintendo offers as it can hold more.
#153777 - sgeos - Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:07 am
I suspect that there are relatively few pirates out there, fewer homebrew users and even fewer homebrew developers.
-Brendan
#153808 - simonjhall - Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:38 pm
<faux rant>
I have noticed though that the homebrew made for the DS is often of a better quality than what's found on the PSP, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Not wanting to insult people's hard work, but a lot of PSP stuff is just crap! Have a trawl through the DCEmu PSP homebrew section for an example. It's often really hard to get to the good stuff because there is just so much rubbish out there!
I'm tempted to post links to stuff, but again that'd seem kinda rude.
However this could be down to a bunch of reasons:
a) it's easier to make 'homebrew' for the PSP
b) PSP homebrew is more popular than the DS
c) PSP users are more inclined to make stuff than just 'consume' stuff
d) there's already loads of rubbish for the PSP, so people feel less concious if they release rubbish themselves
Ok, I gotta post one item: http://dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=100262
it's an address converter. It converts from one type of memory address to the actual address in memory. I was automatically suspicious as I did a lot of PSP work a few years back, and one reader summed it up pretty well:
| Quote: |
| Because its so hard to add 0x8800000 to the address, right? |
...this is what I'm talking about. Kudos to the guy for making some hombrew for his fave console, but wouldn't having a calculator in front of you be easier?!
Not really sure of what my point is here.
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#153810 - SiW - Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:11 pm
I have to disagree with your reasons, because I don't think any of them are true.
I'm not disagreeing with your primary observation though. My theory is that the people with the ability to create superior homebrew are doing it on the DS instead of the PSP because it's a more interesting platform.
#153813 - simonjhall - Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:52 pm
No no no that's not what I meant!! I forgot question marks! Hmm, perhaps I should have phrased them as questions too! Take two,
a) is it easier to make 'homebrew' for the PSP?
b) is PSP homebrew is more popular than on the DS?
c) are PSP users are more inclined to make stuff than just 'consume' stuff?
d) as there's already loads of rubbish for the PSP, do people feel less concious if they release rubbish themselves?
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#153817 - sgeos - Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:15 pm
There is a natural progression from GBA homebrew to DS homebrew, so the combined community is older. I suspect most of the first GBA homebrew demos were kind of sad on a certain level. Time and documentation moves on.
-Brendan
#153822 - SiW - Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:50 pm
| simonjhall wrote: |
| No no no that's not what I meant!! I forgot question marks! |
Aha! That makes quite the difference then ;)
| simonjhall wrote: |
| a) is it easier to make 'homebrew' for the PSP? |
I realize I said no, but it deserves a longer answer. On the one hand, you have Lua Player, which makes development accessible to anyone, and I think the increased power of the PSP makes the use of standard libs more viable than on the DS. On the other hand, the last time I used it the toolchain was harder to setup and maintain for Windows users, coding for the PSP Slim needed some careful planning, and the vast majority of people need to install custom firmware or use game loaders to run their homebrew.
| simonjhall wrote: |
b) is PSP homebrew is more popular than on the DS?
|
No. There are only a couple of homebrew releases I see mentioned in non-homebrew-targeted forums, and they're ports (Cave Story) or emulators. The barrier to entry with the custom firmware and the cat & mouse with Sony is of even greater importance with homebrew users than it is with homebrew developers.
| simonjhall wrote: |
c) are PSP users are more inclined to make stuff than just 'consume' stuff?
|
I don't think so. Other than media playback, I think the PSP is only really suitable for games, unlike the DS. I really think the hardware features of the DS attract curious developers. Touch interface and microphone go a long way.
| simonjhall wrote: |
d) as there's already loads of rubbish for the PSP, do people feel less concious if they release rubbish themselves? |
Eh, can't really comment on this. You could argue that this should encourage people to develop good software as they'll instantly be a big fish in a small pond ;)
#153841 - silent_code - Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:56 am
ok, this i a bit of offtopic, but every time i get my hands on my little cousin's (f) psp (a white one!!!! :^p ), i catch myself very tempted to or even sometimes *touching* the display, but that ignorant little thing doesn't even care about that! :^D
"damn! how many times do i have to tell myself, that 'loco_roco != touchable'?" ;^)
#153861 - melw - Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:11 pm
I'm with SiW, as well. When I last checked the PSP homebrew (it's been two years since I sold my PSP, though) it felt easier to do stuff for DS, not other way around. This was still the era when you wanted to keep your v1.5 firmware intact and Sony was playing cat and mouse with their firmware upgrades.
I'd guess PSP is more popular as an emulator platform instead of DS because the latter lacks in performance. Otherwise the homebrew applications and games on DS offer wider variety, and perhaps also of better quality? Can't say for sure - haven't really followed PSP homebrew for ages...
#153902 - tepples - Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:47 am
| SiW wrote: |
| the vast majority of people need to install custom firmware or use game loaders to run their homebrew. |
Don't plenty of DS owners use custom firmware too?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#153910 - SiW - Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:26 am
While many DS developers might use FlashMe, I don't believe the majority of homebrew users do anymore.
#153931 - silent_code - Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:28 pm
i use an out of the box cyan nds. and i don't see the point in messing around with firmware, really (wifi transfer and stuff, yeah... whatever.) ;^)
#153934 - nczempin - Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:28 pm
| SiW wrote: |
I have to disagree with your reasons, because I don't think any of them are true.
I'm not disagreeing with your primary observation though. My theory is that the people with the ability to create superior homebrew are doing it on the DS instead of the PSP because it's a more interesting platform. |
For a certain age range, you wouldn't want to be seen with a Nintendo console. Perhaps that age range doesn't correlate well with coding skills.
Plus, a DS has more interesting things to play with, whereas if I were to code for the PSP, I may as well code for the PC.
#153949 - sgeos - Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:39 pm
| nczempin wrote: |
| For a certain age range, you wouldn't want to be seen with a Nintendo console. Perhaps that age range doesn't correlate well with coding skills. |
I have no clue what this age range is. Are you sure it is not a social group instead of an age range?
-Brendan
#153952 - SiW - Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:49 pm
No, I agree with him on the age thing. With boys especially, you hit a certain age and suddenly if a game doesn't involve blowing the head off of bad guys, it's not cool. It takes a few years before you can mature enough to appreciate Super Princess Peach :D
#153959 - silent_code - Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:02 pm
that's one benefit of growing up - when suddenly the mystical term of "gameplay" starts to matter and actually makes sense! ;^)
i wonder if that's also the age when fanboyism - as opposed to the more "mature" "religious" reasoning - is the stronges? i wouldn't guess so, but it could sure be possible. that's actually an interesting topic for an university assignment. ;^D
#154000 - sgeos - Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:46 am
| SiW wrote: |
| With boys especially, you hit a certain age and suddenly if a game doesn't involve blowing the head off of bad guys, it's not cool. |
I was never there, but I guess my friends and I nuked dragons with 16 bit spells instead. =P
-Brendan
#154011 - nczempin - Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:46 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| nczempin wrote: | | For a certain age range, you wouldn't want to be seen with a Nintendo console. Perhaps that age range doesn't correlate well with coding skills. |
I have no clue what this age range is. Are you sure it is not a social group instead of an age range?
-Brendan |
Well, it's probably a combination, but it's fascinating to see all the teenagers and twentysomething on the train with their PSPs, whereas the kids and the >30s have no problem with a DS. I'm wondering when my current 10-year-old will make the transition; right now he's all Pokemon and Lego [and/or] Star Wars ;-)
It all started when the PSX first came along. Cool people don't play Mario games. I myself (38 soon) have no problem playing Mario Kart one minute, Grand Prix Legends (or Gran Turismo 5000) the next...
I am of course part of a very very peculiar social group ;-)
#154012 - nczempin - Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:50 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| SiW wrote: | | With boys especially, you hit a certain age and suddenly if a game doesn't involve blowing the head off of bad guys, it's not cool. |
I was never there, but I guess my friends and I nuked dragons with 16 bit spells instead. =P
-Brendan |
There definitely was a time when I wouldn't have admitted to enjoy Pokemon Snap (just a little :-).
Very recently I tried to find excuses to by an XBox or Playstation (n>1). Guitar Hero and some of the Eye Toy thingies came closest, plus perhaps those 80s-karaoke games ;-)
It's not like I wouldn't still enjoy a CS session, but I have no chance against all the 13-year-olds...
(Perhaps this points more to why I prefer a PC over the latest-gen consoles, rather than why I prefer Nintendo over PS/XBX).
#154013 - tepples - Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:18 pm
| nczempin wrote: |
| (Perhaps this points more to why I prefer a PC over the latest-gen consoles, rather than why I prefer Nintendo over PS/XBX). |
Of course, one of the big problems with PC gaming is that with most popular PC titles, you can't run more than one player per PC. One of the reasons is that even if you use a USB hub to add more keyboards and mice, Windows doesn't distinguish keypresses on one keyboard from keypresses on another keyboard. So you need to buy more PCs and more monitors if you often have friends over who don't own their own PCs.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#154030 - sonny_jim - Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:25 pm
The reasons I don't really like PC gaming is that the PC isn't designed to be a gaming platform and also that it tends to make programmers lazy:
"Optimise this routine or put the minimum required specs up?"
Having said that, any FPS without a keyboard/mouse sucks.
#154035 - silent_code - Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:37 pm
well, i find the pc platform annoying, because two different hw setups, running an installation from the SAME winXP cd, will produce different results. and i'm not even talking about vendor specific issues, but rather os issues (again, same installation source, no updates whatsoever!). ;^)
<sigh>
#154039 - Lynx - Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:39 pm
Not really being a gamer, I prefer the PC because I feel I have better control over my character (3D Shooters) with a mouse and a 50key tactical board.
_________________
NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#154044 - simonjhall - Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:32 pm
I much prefer programming consoles since you know what hardware you're getting when you're writing for it, even if the hardware is inferior to a "modern PC". Having to write fancy code for lots of different processors because you're not sure what you're running on is just alien...
As an example, a couple of months ago I had to write this highly cpu-intensive piece of code for our game that just wouldn't have been possible had I not known the layout of the processor (eg issue width and rules, which functional units can be used in parallel, memory latency etc). I spent two weeks placing each instruction by hand but it totally paid off. Now if this had been on the PC and we wanted fast versions for CPUs from the last five years I'd have to have written seven different versions (off the top of my head) for all the different micro-architectures that run the x86 ISA.
That's obviously a complete waste of time and any project manager is going to have a tough time understanding why they need to allocate a programmer to write seven versions of a piece of code when one sub-par version will do. They can just pop the hardware requirements up a notch, right?
There must be people on this forum who do PC games for a living - what DO you do in scenarios like this?
_________________
Big thanks to everyone who donated for Quake2
#154049 - sgeos - Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:41 am
| simonjhall wrote: |
| That's obviously a complete waste of time and any project manager is going to have a tough time understanding why they need to allocate a programmer to write seven versions of a piece of code when one sub-par version will do. They can just pop the hardware requirements up a notch, right? |
In general, programmer is just as important as execution time. This is something that a lot of low level software engineers have a hard time grasping. "Why do the algorithms suck?" "Well, do you work for free? If so, for how long?" There are times when you can and should throw execution time at a problem just to get things done, and there are other times when you can and should throw more programming hours at the problem. The correct choice is tactical and depends on the specific circumstances of the project.
If you have a (more or less) fixed buget, and your choices are:
A) Make the coolest hi-tech game that never got shipped, or
B) Live within your budget, bump the specs up a bit and ship
Which would you choose?
-Brendan