#159733 - AerosolSP - Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:33 pm
So, I don't know how many people remember the ill-fated Chrono Trigger: Resurrection project that got gunned by Square? Well Square finally decided to start doing something about porting their classic RPG to a modern system and well...
It's like a kick in the face.
First off, this:
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/ctds/
Second off, this [Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
Pretty much a confirmation if you ask me...could be wrong but, let's assume for a moment that this is, indeed, Chrono Trigger as we loved it making it's way to the DS. Considering the fact that Square exercised it's right to preserve its intellectual property (rather anally, might I add), you'd think that their own offering would be better than the thing they trashed, right? So the fact that it doesn't seem like much more in than a straight port is potentially a boot to the face of anyone that looked forward to Chrono Trigger: Resurrection while it was in development.
I could be alone in this opinion but hey, voicing it all the same. What do you guys think?
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#159735 - silent_code - Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:10 pm
CT? Yay!!!! X^D (Sorry for the fanboyish comment!)
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#159742 - sgeos - Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:53 pm
Does that SE page go anywhere interesting, or is it just a countdown?
FWIW, the correct procedure for using someone else's IP is to get permission. That is not to say that I think gunning the project was the best choice on Square's part, although it was probably the simplest.
-Brendan
#159751 - AerosolSP - Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:36 am
'tis just a countdown.
And yea, you are right. But...alot of companies let home developers do their own thing with their IP (look at sonic fangaming for christ's sake), because they know that there is very little any one of those fanmade creations can do to hurt their sales.
The fact that Square thought it necessary to nip CT: R in the bud conveys one of two (or both) things. Either Square were just being anal about it, or they already had plans for a mediocre straight port, in which case CT: R could have easily hurt sales of said mediocrity. Or maybe it's both of those reasons.
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#159752 - sgeos - Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:35 am
I do not see much point to the countdown, but they are free to host whatever they want to.
I suspect that they a protective corporate culture. I doubt most individual decisions are very well thought out.
Last time I checked, Capcom's stance on fan based works is that they are not a problem (although I am sure they have limits). I suspect it really depends on the company / current management. There are only a couple of things you can do to protest- sell any shares you own (if any) and boycott. I have no plans to pick up a DS port of CT.
-Brendan
#159757 - AerosolSP - Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:43 am
Me neither. I'm not interested in most RPGs. Infact, I only play FF3 because I want to take note of how the developers handled having quality models while using few polygons.
Now, if Square were to official localise Seiken Densetsu 3...
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#159768 - tepples - Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:13 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| FWIW, the correct procedure for using someone else's IP is to get permission. |
Have you any tips for how to do that in the context of a non-commercial project?
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#159783 - DiscoStew - Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:45 pm
The CT:R project wasn't even gonna be a full-blown remake. If I remember correctly, it was only gonna provide 10 scenarios of the game. But still, Square has the right to protect their IPs, and considering how often they do ports themselves, they felt the need to take action.
Just a little offtopic, didn't the person doing the music and such also visit these forums occasionally a year ago or so?
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#159785 - Dark Knight ez - Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:12 pm
Yes he did. tssf.
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#159787 - tepples - Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:55 pm
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| But still, Square has the right to protect their IPs |
The term "IP" encompasses copyrights, patents, trademarks, trade secrets, and Internet Protocol address allocations. They have different purposes and different scopes of exclusive rights, and referring to "IP" in general only confuses readers. Did you mean only copyrights, or did you mean something else?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159789 - DiscoStew - Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:12 pm
I meant their property in general, through methods such as copyrights and the like.
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#159790 - sgeos - Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:31 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | FWIW, the correct procedure for using someone else's IP is to get permission. |
Have you any tips for how to do that in the context of a non-commercial project? |
Ask. A snail mail business letter probably makes the most sense. Depending on who you are dealing with, they may not give you permission. Lack of a response is basically a refusal, although there could be routing errors, etc. If you do not get permission, then invent your own IP and make a clone (to the extent no patents are being violated).
| tepples wrote: |
| The term "IP" encompasses copyrights, patents, trademarks, trade secrets, and Internet Protocol address allocations. |
So far as I know, "Mario" is a trademark. Distribution of Mario binaries falls into the realm of copyright. Chances are slim you will be given access to trade secrets for a non-commercial project, and they are nil for IP addresses. I'm curious, where do things like the right to create derivative works fall? Trademarks?
-Brendan
#159810 - tepples - Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:40 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| I'm curious, where do things like the right to create derivative works fall? Trademarks? |
Copyright, most of the time. Trademarks can be written around (see Pidgin or The Ur-Quan Masters).
But the term "intellectual property" has connotations that are loaded against free software and free culture: - Copyright law, patent law, trademark law, and trade secret law are more alike than different. (This is demonstrably false.)
- Holding companies deserve to own exclusive rights in works of authorship, inventions, marks, and the right of an employee to change jobs within one's field of expertise. (This is disputed.)
The abbreviation "IP" is even worse, as it carries these connotations that are just as loaded: - "Intellectual property" is so legitimate that it deserves to be abbreviated.
- "Intellectual property" is as legitimate as the technical underpinnings of the Internet itself.
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159813 - sgeos - Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:21 am
| tepples wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | I'm curious, where do things like the right to create derivative works fall? Trademarks? |
Copyright, most of the time. Trademarks can be written around (see Pidgin or The Ur-Quan Masters). |
Copyright would cover the executable. So long as you are rocoding the engine you are fine there. Graphics, sound, text and stage layouts could also potentially be covered by copyright, so so-long as you use original assets you are fine that. That basically takes you to 99% of your development budget.
| US Copyright Office (supposedly) wrote: |
| Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. |
Link
So it appears that copyright law provides for derivative works, or new versions in the above language. Not only do you need a new program and new assets, but a new setting, characters and other flavor elements as well. This is where Chrono Trigger: Resurrection crossed the line. If you receive a salary for something you work on, there is a good chance that that is a work for hire, and you basically sold ownership for your salary.
| Quote: |
| But the term "intellectual property" has connotations that are loaded against free software and free culture |
Are you aware of a better term to use? Intangible assets could able be used, but that would contain accounting concepts like goodwill that are even less related. Regardless, the point is that these are intangibles with ownership. To the extent you are not the owner, you need permission from the owner which may or may not be granted.
People can argue about whether or not this is the best system possible, but there are no direct practical applications to answering that question. This is the system that is in place now.
-Brendan
#159829 - AerosolSP - Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:58 am
http://kotaku.com/5022371/yes-this-is-the-chrono-trigger-ds-trailer
so....apparently no dual screen functionality, decade old marketing material, decade old sprite work, decade old music quality. But it's a full price game.
Yup, I won't be buying this.
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#159842 - silent_code - Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:34 am
Well, I personally like direct ports that contain unbutchered and updowngraded gameplay. So, I'm happy they will release this "true" and "faithful" ;?D port of that great game. It's not like the graphics or music were bad, in fact, it's all still pretty decent and simply "fits."
But a full price game? Well,they should have released it for the GBA, back then... still, it should not be a full price game. I'll wait until its price drops and get it. :^)
PS: Yes, I am a retro gamer. :?D
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July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
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#159856 - AerosolSP - Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:08 pm
That's the thing. It's like Square is showing this game and it's fans no respect whatsoever. It's nothing more than a cash-in to fund the projects that they deem more important. It's annoying.
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#159857 - nanou - Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:45 pm
M'eh, they probably don't have the capacity to produce another Chrono Trigger game that would live up to the game's legacy. Meanwhile, it's a no-brainer that fans would love a DS port. It is disappointing that they haven't added much, but OTOH, it's nice to see the classics coming to the DS and holding up.
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#159858 - Miked0801 - Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:21 pm
Sorry guys, but I'd buy it as a straight port. I still occasionally boot up my SNES just to play the original.
#159863 - DiscoStew - Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:02 pm
For a game like this, I'd like it to be just like the original in terms of game-play. Although it isn't going the route of FFIIIDS and FFIVDS with 3D (which I prefer they keep at 2D for this game), they could at least bump up the quality of the graphics and audio.
Question: Is this a port of the SNES, or the PSX? Just asking because adding the movies, imo, is just wasting space.
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#159880 - AerosolSP - Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:06 pm
It's too early to tell. If they were smart though, they'd port the snes version, due to the obvious hardware similarity (both use cartridges after all).
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#159885 - silent_code - Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:20 pm
Is that true, I mean the hardware similarity? I know the N64 used cartridges, too, but was its architecture anything like the SNES' or GBA's or NDS'? Nope.
But then, I don't know much about programming the SNES (it's big endian, right? Good thing the ARM knows both endianessessesss ;^) - damn that word! Although, from peeking at some docs, it looks a lot like a direct predecessor to the GBA.)
I'm just curious. :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#159887 - tepples - Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:35 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | | But the term "intellectual property" has connotations that are loaded against free software and free culture |
Are you aware of a better term to use? |
Just say "copyright" if you are discussing works of authorship.
| sgeos wrote: |
| Intangible assets could able be used, but that would contain accounting concepts like goodwill that are even less related. |
For goodwill, say "trademark".
| AerosolSP wrote: |
| so....apparently no dual screen functionality, decade old marketing material, decade old sprite work, decade old music quality. |
Don't dis Brian Peppers' Theme.
| AerosolSP wrote: |
| But it's a full price game. |
And Disney releases 60-year-old movies as full price DVDs.
| AerosolSP wrote: |
| Yup, I won't be buying this. |
So it's like the straight port of Parappa the Rapper from PS1 to PSP, right? The only things Sony added to Parappa for PSP were multi-disc multiplayer (but who has $80 to provide a disc for self and a friend?) and downloadable BGM replacements (I tried them; they sounded gimmicky more than anything).
silent_code is right that the cartridge/CD distinction is misleading. The vast majority[1] of Super NES games just mapped everything into byte-addressable ROM, just like the GBA (and the DS SLOT-2). DS SLOT-1, on the other hand, is a lot more like an optical disc in that it is a block device with a file system, just a shitload faster than the PS1 CD drive (unless you're on GnM).
| nanou wrote: |
| M'eh, they probably don't have the capacity to produce another Chrono Trigger game that would live up to the game's legacy. |
How about Chrono Crossing: Wild World? :P
And no, the Super NES is just as little-endian as the x86 and the DS ARM9.
[1] The most notable exceptions were a few games that used compressed graphics with a coprocessor performing the decompression, such as Star Ocean, Street Fighter Alpha 2, and Far East of Eden Zero.
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159889 - DekuTree64 - Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:47 pm
GBA was more similar to SNES than DS is. The DS cartridge isn't memory mapped, so you have to do a lot more dynamic memory management than on the older systems.
I'd guess they're starting from the PSX source, since it's probably written in C/C++, and a source port from 65816 assembly would probably be more work than re-coding from scratch. You'd only have to change how assets are converted/loaded/displayed anyway.
Having all the artwork done would definitely make it a whole lot cheaper to develop than a new game though, so I do agree it should be more like $20-25. Probably would make them a lot more money with increased sales/reputation, but oh well. I'll still buy a copy provided they manage to keep the music the same quality (Tales of Phantasia GBA was such a disappointment in that area).
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Therefore a fully optimized program doesn't exist.
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#159903 - DiscoStew - Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:16 am
| DekuTree64 wrote: |
| I'll still buy a copy provided they manage to keep the music the same quality (Tales of Phantasia GBA was such a disappointment in that area). |
Heh, the GBA's audio capability was only as great as the audio coder with the upgrade from the GB's sound capabilities with 2 DACs, vs the SNES's SPU. It was sad to hear the difference from SNES to GBA of Final Fantasy VI.
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#159904 - AerosolSP - Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:29 am
Now that I think about it, you guys are probably right. I'm quite tired (overnight shifts, ugh), and I was only thinking that CDs have seek times while the snes cartridges generally didn't. It'll probably be a PSX port, as it's source code is probably far more accessible.
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#159940 - nanou - Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:23 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Just say "copyright" if you are discussing works of authorship. |
Is it really that important? The context of the original statement makes it quite clear if you think about it.
Not sure where you're coming from here, but CT doesn't immediately lend itself to the kinds of enhancements that Animal Crossing got. The only people I know personally who've played it found the field of view so small that it wasn't worth playing, despite the all 'round enhancements.
While I found the Final Fantasy games that have been revamped to 3D deserved it, CT had a distinct style that would be compromised by that kind of change. It would be quite the project to fail to make the game any worse with this kind of change. However, I do agree that touchscreen menus (and any other kind of selection input) are an important feature of any DS game. Most games (ports included) deliver on this and I wouldn't expect any less of CT.
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#159942 - sgeos - Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:02 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | Intangible assets could able be used, but that would contain accounting concepts like goodwill that are even less related. |
For goodwill, say "trademark". |
Goodwill is completely different from a trademark. It reprents the difference between what was paid for a company and the assets in that company. Accountants live in a world defined by and equal sign, so everything needs to live on the books somewhere; goodwill can be positive or negative. Goodwill can represent things like positive (or negative) working relationships, customer lists, etc.
-Brendan
#159946 - silent_code - Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:38 pm
Where does that "No Touching" ;^) info come from? I didn't read anything about touch screen support, which doesn't mean it's not there... ?
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#159980 - tepples - Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:03 am
| nanou wrote: |
Not sure where you're coming from here, but CT doesn't immediately lend itself to the kinds of enhancements that Animal Crossing got. |
That was a joke son. I make that kind of joke about anything with "Cross" in its name, even Tetris: Imperial Crossing vs. Imperial Crossing.
| nanou wrote: |
| The only people I know personally who've played it found the field of view so small that it wasn't worth playing, despite the all 'round enhancements. |
The problem with ACWW's field of view compared to ACPG's was that the camera was pointed about two cells too far south. Otherwise, ACWW had a bigger field of view. And even that can be worked around; if you play online, PM me about Picken Landscape.
| sgeos wrote: |
| Goodwill is completely different from a trademark. It reprents the difference between what was paid for a company and the assets in that company. Accountants live in a world defined by and equal sign, so everything needs to live on the books somewhere; goodwill can be positive or negative. Goodwill can represent things like positive (or negative) working relationships, customer lists, etc. |
Really? I thought trademark values would be ideal for describing the value of the relationships associated with a brand.
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#160011 - nanou - Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:36 am
| tepples wrote: |
That was a joke son. I make that kind of joke about anything with "Cross" in its name, |
Gotcha. I knew it was a joke, but I wasn't sure if you were additionally trying to make an enhancement comparison or something.
| tepples wrote: |
| The problem with ACWW's field of view compared to ACPG's was that the camera was pointed about two cells too far south. Otherwise, ACWW had a bigger field of view. And even that can be worked around; if you play online, PM me about Picken Landscape. |
The frustum might be larger, but since the angle's so obtuse you can't see as much with it and IMO too many games do this. I can't say I'm interested in playing Animal Crossing regardless, it's really not my bag.
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#160018 - silent_code - Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:40 am
I guess it's so common because of performance issues and maybe even (this is pure guessing, as I haven't played AC:WW) motion sickness, at least in some games. (I normally don't suffer from motion sickness, but playing Metroid Prime on a 16:9 plasma gave me some weird feelings and slight headaches. Adjusting it back to 4:3 solved the problem. TimeSplitters3 has a 16:9 option and it works: no weirdness at all. :^) )
PS: I currently have no graphics driver installed and the CPU rendered "smooth" scrolling in the browser gives me "choppiness sickness." ;^D
EDIT: With performance I also meant the hardware limits, but forgot to point it out specificaly. Thanks for the hint. ;^)
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It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
Last edited by silent_code on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
#160087 - nanou - Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:58 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| I guess it's so common because of performance issues and maybe even (this is pure guessing, as I haven't played AC:WW) motion sickness, at least in some games. |
My guess is the low poly count on the DS. If you show less environment you can put more polys into your character models. I'd personally rather a worse level of detail though. I think most would agree with me, but graphical quality is one of the trump details in the initial perceived quality of a game.
Motion sickness is an interesting point. I suspect it has a lot to do with your threshold of perception. If the visual effect is rendered roughly at your threshold your nervous system will probably find it more chaotic with just enough information to focus on and make sense of, but not enough to anticipate. I don't suffer from motion sickness while playing games (Doom gave me vertigo once or twice, but it doesn't happen any more) so I've got no idea how the visible field would impact it. I would think a larger visible area would help rather than hurt, but I really don't know.
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#160089 - silent_code - Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:33 am
<OffTopic>
My guess is, that it's all about torgue. The streched image caused some (little) dizzynes, although I haven't experienced that before. That's because the rather fast rotations when additionally stretched, would become even faster and the brain would have to recalibrate the image a lot (due to the stretching and new orientation.)
</OffTopic>
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July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#160157 - tepples - Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:21 pm
| nanou wrote: |
| silent_code wrote: | | I guess it's so common because of performance issues and maybe even (this is pure guessing, as I haven't played AC:WW) motion sickness, at least in some games. |
My guess is the low poly count on the DS. |
Animal Crossing for GameCube was a source port of an N64 game. The typical DS poly count is about the same as the typical N64 poly count. If there was any motion sickness on ACWW, it came not from poly count but from the lower frame rate and the DS's lack of texture filtering.
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#160163 - nanou - Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:41 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| nanou wrote: | | My guess is the low poly count on the DS. |
Animal Crossing for GameCube was a source port of an N64 game. The typical DS poly count is about the same as the typical N64 poly count. If there was any motion sickness on ACWW, it came not from poly count but from the lower frame rate and the DS's lack of texture filtering. |
Yeah, I wouldn't blame motion sickness on poly count, I was referring to the narrow view.
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