#163942 - tondopie - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:10 am
I always get into debates with people when I ask what coding languages they know and the say something like Lua or HTML. Personally I would call those scripting languages. Would you?
Here's what I would consider each language:
- C - Coding
- C++ -Coding
- C# - Coding
- PHP - Coding and Scripting (An Interpreted language, but has a lot of the same features of a coding language.
- HTML - Scripting
- CGI/Perl/Python/Ruby - Scripting
- Java - Coding
- Lua - Scripting
- ASM - Coding
- Make - Scripting (can you even really call it a language anyway?)
- JavaScript - Scripting
- XML - Scripting
- SQL - Scripting
- BASIC/Visual Basic/.NET - Borderline coding
- Brainfuck - Scripting
I could think of more but these are the most popular languages it seems these days. Would you agree with this classification? Why or why not?
#163944 - gauauu - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:39 am
For the most part (not entirely) I agree with your classifications, BUT I think the distinction is rather unimportant. You can build cool stuff whether you label something as a "scripting" language or not.
More important: what is the job you want to do, and does the language empower you to do that easily?
#163945 - chuckstudios - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:10 am
In my opinion, HTML and XML aren't even scripting. It's like using Microsoft Word or Powerpoint - you're just making a presentation/structure for static data.
#163948 - Quirky - Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:33 pm
HTML and XML are markup languages.
SQL is, as its name suggests, a query language.
Usually people talk about statically typed (Java, C, C++) and dynamically typed languages (Javascript, Python). Statically typed languages usually require compiling before they can be used as a program.
Then you have other ways to describe languages - "managed" (Java, Python) and "unmanaged" (C, C++). The difference here is the way the user deals with memory or the security measures involved.
#163955 - tondopie - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:36 pm
In my mind, markup is a type of scripting.
#163957 - Maxxie - Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:01 pm
Script is just the textual representation of code (language). So it does not make much sense to differentiate this.
You could however classify computer languages by their execution type (interpretated, compiled, mixed)
or by their functional completeness:
HTML i.e. is not \mu-recursive.
TeX is.
Some basic accents (With pre-limited call depths) on the other hand are just primitive recursive.
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#163970 - sgeos - Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:29 pm
Keep in mind that old school games use old school custom scripting languages that are compiled to byte code. Something like the hopping in Final Fantasy 4 was written in an assembler-like scripting language that was compiled to byte code. Each bytecode is interpreted and actions are executed by the engine.
I do not believe I have ever actually seen one of these assembler-like scripting languages. (My email address is sgeos>splat<hotmail*dotty*com if anyone cares to enlighten me. =)
#163972 - nanou - Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:00 am
| sgeos wrote: |
Something like the hopping in Final Fantasy 4 was written in an assembler-like scripting language that was compiled to byte code.
[...]
I do not believe I have ever actually seen one of these assembler-like scripting languages. |
LLVM. But just about any embeddable VM might count in the sense that there generally exist assemblers for them.
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#163973 - sgeos - Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:53 am
| nanou wrote: |
| But just about any embeddable VM might count in the sense that there generally exist assemblers for them. |
VMs and scripting languages do different things. VMs run virtual instruction sets. They can also be used to sandbox code in a virtual environment to make the resulting executable more stable.
Scripting languages for games, macro languages included, abstract common tasks so that complex tasks (like RPG events) are less laborious to put together. You can make a scripter out of a poor programmer or savvy non-programmer to save money on labor expenses. The end result is that a fair number of your scripts may be really ugly, so sandboxing scripted event code is a very good idea.
Game engine VMs were combined with custom assembler-like scripting languages in the SNES days to get games made. I understand that the scripts were not especially hard to write, but they were incredibly hard to read. =)
| http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#source wrote: |
In what language is LLVM written?
All of the LLVM tools and libraries are written in C++ with extensive use of the STL. |
Hmmm... I'm sure you could get this to work on the DS, but extensive use of the the STL strikes me as a red flag. Now, I'm not sure about the SNES =) I suppose if all you want to do is tranform code into a custom format on the PC, the LLVM libraries could be useful. (I'll admit I only scanned the project.)
#163974 - nanou - Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:07 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| VMs and scripting languages do different things. VMs run virtual instruction sets. |
Then you'll have to forgive me. "Scripting language" doesn't really mean anything to me, except sometimes: "probably has an interpreter, maybe has a VM" in the nonexclusive sense. Assembly-like language, OTOH, means that the language is assembled directly rather than compiled or interpreted, and certainly runs directly on some kind of machine, be it real or virtual.
Getting even more OT...
If you're just interested in opcode-controlled event scripting, I think the reason you won't find any of these systems out in the open is because they're as trivial to create as they are to write for, and I expect they're all tailored to exactly each task they're responsible for. I haven't done the necessary botany to really know how other people use these systems, but there's a reason they're not using TCL or $fad_scripting_language_du_jour -- any general language is overkill.
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#163976 - jackman - Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:27 am
Scripting Languages can extend the functionality of a program or a system using existing routines. JavaScript e.q. can be used to extend the functionality of a static HTML Document by adding interactive routines (Text scrolling and other effects).
A Scripting Language is always dependent of its Host System (Language: JavaScript => Host System: the executing Browser; Language: VBScript/JScript => Host System: Windows Scripting Host (Windows-related Scripts, Macros) or Internet Explorer (Website-related Scripts)).
This also means, that VisualBasic is a Coding Language while VBScript and VBA (VisualBasic for Applications) are Scripting Languages.
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#163977 - furrykef - Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:47 am
Programming is programming. What matters is getting the task done and meeting the requirements, not whether your language uses static/dynamic typing or whether it's compiled and interpreted. Of course, performance, including low memory usage, is often a requirement, and that may dictate the use of a compiled language, but the performance is the real requirement and the use of a compiled language is just incidental; it's only the means to achieve that requirement.
Back when I started programming I remember I had this hangup about what's "real" programming and what isn't, and this idea that languages like C and C++ were inherently superior to, say, Visual Basic. They're not (although I still wouldn't be caught dead using VB in particular). People care about your product, not about what it was made in.
- Kef
#163983 - Izhido - Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:23 pm
<troll>
Say, how
| Quote: |
| Programming is programming. What matters is getting the task done and meeting the requirements |
and
| Quote: |
| this idea that languages like C and C++ were inherently superior to, say, Visual Basic. They're not |
cope with
| Quote: |
| (although I still wouldn't be caught dead using VB in particular) |
, huh?
</troll>
#163988 - sgeos - Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:57 pm
| nanou wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | VMs and scripting languages do different things. VMs run virtual instruction sets. |
Then you'll have to forgive me. "Scripting language" doesn't really mean anything to me, except sometimes: "probably has an interpreter, maybe has a VM" in the nonexclusive sense. |
Sure. "Scripting language" does not mean anything in and of itself. I have seen both compiled and interpreted scripting languages. I suppose both sorts drive something.
| nanou wrote: |
| Assembly-like language, OTOH, means that the language is assembled directly rather than compiled or interpreted, and certainly runs directly on some kind of machine, be it real or virtual. |
I should have said "scripting languages with assembly-like grammar", as opposed to ones with C-like grammar (the current trend). Sorry about the miscommunication.
| Quote: |
| If you're just interested in opcode-controlled event scripting, I think the reason you won't find any of these systems out in the open is because they're as trivial to create as they are to write for, and I expect they're all tailored to exactly each task they're responsible for. |
Sure. They are a basic grammar and an API all rolled into one. I was actually hoping to see an old school scripting example just to make 2008 is a "better" time to be writing scripted events. In a language with assembly-like grammar, you get to do fun things like use branch on zero statements to implement flow control (if / while). Looking back, this sounds horrible if you have 300 scripted events to write, but I'm sure it was a nifty thing to do at the time. =)
| Quote: |
| I haven't done the necessary botany to really know how other people use these systems, but there's a reason they're not using TCL or $fad_scripting_language_du_jour -- any general language is overkill. |
Agree.
#163989 - nanou - Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:33 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| I should have said "scripting languages with assembly-like grammar", as opposed to ones with C-like grammar (the current trend). Sorry about the miscommunication. |
Gotcha. That would be a different situation. Although given the following:
| Quote: |
| In a language with assembly-like grammar, you get to do fun things like use branch on zero statements to implement flow control (if / while). Looking back, this sounds horrible if you have 300 scripted events to write, but I'm sure it was a nifty thing to do at the time. =) |
It sounds a lot like an assembled language. Though I don't think it would be all that problematic to write for even a lot of events. Just about any individual thing is probably fairly simple, and the language has been tailored to the task, after all.
Incidentally, I totally agree that LLVM and most other established VMs would be inappropriate for game scripting on the DS. Of the disposable ones that have been used, I'd find it quite interesting if any one of these such languages were ever used in other games. My assertion is that they're not worth generalizing, but it would be pretty cool to be proven wrong on that.
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#163991 - sgeos - Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:59 pm
| nanou wrote: |
| Quote: | | In a language with assembly-like grammar, you get to do fun things like use branch on zero statements to implement flow control (if / while). Looking back, this sounds horrible if you have 300 scripted events to write, but I'm sure it was a nifty thing to do at the time. =) |
It sounds a lot like an assembled language. |
I'm sure it is assembled to bytecode. The thing is, the language is going to be a mix of assembly style instructions (bz, add) and high level instructions (call_shop, move_actor, sound_effect, clear_flag).
| nanou wrote: |
| Though I don't think it would be all that problematic to write for even a lot of events. |
The problem is not writing them, it is reading them and wrapping your head around what someone else is doing.
| nanou wrote: |
| Just about any individual thing is probably fairly simple, and the language has been tailored to the task, after all. |
The API has been tailored to the task, but large blocks of code in assembly style grammar is not something normal people can easily process. (Yes, they are out there.)
| nanou wrote: |
| Incidentally, I totally agree that LLVM and most other established VMs would be inappropriate for game scripting on the DS. |
Unless you are using a design to tools lifecycle model and something like LLVM is your tool of choice.
| nanou wrote: |
| Of the disposable ones that have been used, I'd find it quite interesting if any one of these such languages were ever used in other games. |
I'm sure some of them were, but one guy in the SNES days said that if you intend to break a million (units sold), you need to build everything from the ground up. I'm sure there were cases of revamping an existing game engine VM and revising the API for the next project. If two projects are being developed concurently and the specs are similar, I could see using different flavors of the same system in both games.
| Quote: |
| My assertion is that they're not worth generalizing, but it would be pretty cool to be proven wrong on that. |
Again, it depends on your lifecycle model. I suspect something like the Super Robot Taisen series may have recycled the map scripting system for all the SNES titles. The spec is pretty static, and the sales point is the proprietary IP, not some other gimmick.
#163993 - silent_code - Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:30 pm
Sorry to diss, but the OP is simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
For example, the term "coding language" is wrong in this case. "Programming language" is what it's called. And then, all the comparing of apples and oranges... oh boy.
Also, I personally think this whole "thing" (topic of the OP) is ridiculous. It's something people think about that don't know it any better... and when they're around the age of 15.
Brainfuck a scripting language? Come on! Read up on computer history and theory!
<sigh>
Never the less: Everybody have a nice weekend! :^)
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June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#163997 - bean_xp - Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:56 pm
Yeah, got to agree with you there, pick a suitable language and get on with the job in my opinion.
#163999 - zzo38computer - Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:59 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| VMs and scripting languages do different things. VMs run virtual instruction sets. They can also be used to sandbox code in a virtual environment to make the resulting executable more stable. |
In Forth the language and the VM are one and the same. That's what make Forth a best interpreted program language ever, in my opinion. I also make specification for FORTAVM it is also VM and the compiler and interpreter is ideal both the same program (it is Forth based), for that reason.
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#164002 - nanou - Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:04 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| Sorry to diss, but the OP is simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. |
Shhh! We're pretending not to notice.
I think the plan is to stray as OT as possible without raising any alarms so no one has to point out that HTML is not even TC and the rest of the premises for classification are just as weak.
Anyway befunge wasn't mentioned, so the list is kinda boring.
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#164005 - sgeos - Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:23 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| For example, the term "coding language" is wrong in this case. "Programming language" is what it's called. And then, all the comparing of apples and oranges... oh boy. |
The topic is "Coding Languages(Lack of a good word) or Scripting Language?" Lacking the vocabulary to ask what you think you want to know probably indicates poor knowledge of the problem domain. But, if you ask anyway, you might learn something. I wonder if the OP wanted to know the difference between "low level" (assembler) and "high level" (ruby) languages...
| bean_xp wrote: |
| Yeah, got to agree with you there, pick a suitable language and get on with the job in my opinion. |
Fantastic advice. You need to know what you want to do, and then pick a tool do it. You could do everything with a hammer, but personally, I like to eat with specialized tools- forks, spoons and chopsticks.
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| In Forth the language and the VM are one and the same. |
Every language is free to be defined whatever terms best solve the problem it has been designed for.
| nanou wrote: |
| I think the plan is to stray as OT as possible without raising any alarms |
I think the plan is quite the opposite.
This was posted in DS Misc forum, so the plan ought to be to bring it back on topic (without raising any alarms) and make the thread vaguely useful for anyone who is doing DS development.
#164017 - nanou - Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:36 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| nanou wrote: | | I think the plan is to stray as OT as possible without raising any alarms |
I think the plan is quite the opposite. |
I'm beginning to see it more clearly now: the plan is to take every tongue-in-cheek remark as though completely serious.
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- nanou
#164031 - tepples - Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:57 pm
| nanou wrote: |
| I think the plan is to stray as OT as possible without raising any alarms so no one has to point out that HTML is not even TC |
PCs aren't Turing complete because they lack unbounded memory. You might need to step down to "LBA-complete" which is physically realizable. In this case, XSLT is LBA-complete, and a lot of things use XSLT to turn XML under some random schema into XHTML for display.
As far as I can tell, a "scripting language" is one that doesn't aim to be "as fast as C". Generally, such languages run in a bytecode interpreter and use some sort of dynamic typing and/or late binding. In dynamic typing, variables don't have types; their values have types. Often, in the case of Lua, Python, and JavaScript, an "object" is just a dictionary from field names to their values.
So to relate it to the topic: "How can dynamically typed languages, such as Lua or JavaScript, improve a DS program?"
| nanou wrote: |
| the plan is to take every tongue-in-cheek remark as though completely serious. |
The internet is a sar-chasm, a pit that irony cannot reliably cross.
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#164033 - nanou - Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:10 am
| tepples wrote: |
| PCs aren't Turing complete because they lack unbounded memory. You might need to step down to "LBA-complete" which is physically realizable. In this case, XSLT is LBA-complete, and a lot of things use XSLT to turn XML under some random schema into XHTML for display. |
That really isn't the point though. I was trying to imply that arguing this very point would be a sad state of affairs. Verdict: :(
| Quote: |
| So to relate it to the topic: |
Shouldn't the topic just be refiled into OT? The original post doesn't really have anything to do with the DS. None of the generated discussion really has anything to do with the DS either, aside from the admonitions to bring the discussion back to topic--a place it's never really been.
I know I'm sounding negative--and I apologize for that--but it's really hard to take this seriously as a topical thread. On the other hand, a bit of good discussion has been generated and my previous comments were intended to hint at these facts.
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#164038 - tepples - Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:49 am
I never thought I'd see the day when I get teased for trying my best to post on-topic :-/
Here's why I tried to swing it back to topic: People on Slashdot keep recommending XNA as a way to try to break into the video game industry. But XNA games have to be either Xbox 360 exclusive or Xbox 360 + Windows exclusive, as XNA doesn't run a game model written in C++ (even with /clr:pure) and no other platform runs a game model written in C# with the XNA libraries. So a truly cross-platform game has to be written in a "scripting" language, so that it can be run in an interpreter written in C# (for Xbox 360 and possibly Windows), in an interpreter written in Java (for cell phones and web browsers), and in an interpreter written in C++ (for other PC-class operating systems, DS, GP2X, or Pandora). Things like that are why Z-machine, AGI, SCI, and SCUMM were invented.
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#164041 - chuckstudios - Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:26 am
| tepples wrote: |
I never thought I'd see the day when I get teased for trying my best to post on-topic :-/
Here's why I tried to swing it back to topic: People on Slashdot keep recommending XNA as a way to try to break into the video game industry. But XNA games have to be either Xbox 360 exclusive or Xbox 360 + Windows exclusive, as XNA doesn't run a game model written in C++ (even with /clr:pure) and no other platform runs a game model written in C# with the XNA libraries. So a truly cross-platform game has to be written in a "scripting" language, so that it can be run in an interpreter written in C# (for Xbox 360 and possibly Windows), in an interpreter written in Java (for cell phones and web browsers), and in an interpreter written in C++ (for other PC-class operating systems, DS, GP2X, or Pandora). Things like that are why Z-machine, AGI, SCI, and SCUMM were invented. |
Zune.
Also, emulating or interpreting with C#/XNA is likely to be incredibly slow, at least on Xbox 360 and Zune, because there is no ability to use pointers. For example: in the case of a framebuffer, this means replicating the data three times using relatively slow functions just to update the screen once. According to the author of an unreleased NES emulator for the Zune, the screen update speed alone limited it to 7 frames per second.
#164060 - sgeos - Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:25 pm
| tondopie wrote: |
| I always get into debates with people when I ask what coding languages they know and the say something like Lua or HTML. Personally I would call those scripting languages. Would you? |
I've come to the conclusion that the real answer to this question is:
Don't argue about such things. Unless, of course, you have some time to kill.
| tepples wrote: |
| I never thought I'd see the day when I get teased for trying my best to post on-topic :-/ |
lol. Things happen. Why don't we move this to off-topic and let the people who want to continue this conversation do it there?
#164065 - tepples - Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:35 am
The balance between programmer efficiency and runtime efficiency depends on how you divide the work between the dynamic language and the inner-loop language. For example, there are console games with more Lua than C++. There are console games with more Lisp than C++.
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#164106 - silent_code - Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:19 pm
OFF-OFFTOPIC:
Don't be upset, tepples. :^)
I think most of us know you're trying to do the right thing and trying to be focused, always determined to help in one way or another. It's being appreciated. :^)
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#164120 - nanou - Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:43 am
| silent_code wrote: |
OFF-OFFTOPIC:
Don't be upset, tepples. :^)
I think most of us know you're trying to do the right thing and trying to be focused, always determined to help in one way or another. It's being appreciated. :^) |
Totally.
| tepples wrote: |
| I never thought I'd see the day when I get teased for trying my best to post on-topic :-/ |
I wasn't trying to make fun of you or anything. Normally I wouldn't have said anything at all but I was getting a bit of flak for... well, pointing out what I thought was obvious. Unfortunately I left the wrong impression.
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#164136 - tepples - Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:34 pm
It's OK. I guess I'm just getting down on myself because people on nesdev.com/bbs think I'm too easy on perceived trolls.
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#164156 - no2pencil - Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:09 am
Interpreted Languages : These are your scripting languages. They require an external program to interpret the code (or script) & they are read & processed line by line.
High Level Languages : These are your compiled languages. They are binary executables & process without the need of an external interpreter.
Low Level Languages : These are your assembler languages. They can be binary executables, same as high level languages as well as shared libraries.
& I have to disagree where you marked cgi as scripts. You can compile c code to be ran inside of a cgi-bin directory. So cgi I think is a bad example of either, since it can walk on both sides of that line.
Java is also another weird bird. While it is compiled, the output alone is not a binary executable & requires the Java Run time to interpret the jre.
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#164162 - tepples - Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:32 pm
| no2pencil wrote: |
| & I have to disagree where you marked cgi as scripts. You can compile c code to be ran inside of a cgi-bin directory. |
But how many shared web hosting providers allow a customer to compile and upload an executable, or to compile an executable on the server?
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#164168 - nanou - Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:56 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| no2pencil wrote: | | & I have to disagree where you marked cgi as scripts. You can compile c code to be ran inside of a cgi-bin directory. |
But how many shared web hosting providers allow a customer to compile and upload an executable, or to compile an executable on the server? |
On unix/linux hosts, virtually all of them that actually provide CGI will (perhaps unintentionally) allow you to upload binaries. It's the great part of CGI--it's a common interface. The handler doesn't know (or care about) the difference between an elf binary and a bash script. So long as it runs, it runs. If it talks CGI, then it might even do something useful. :P
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#164172 - silent_code - Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:59 pm
The point is, the Common Gateway Interface is just that: an interface protocol, not a language.
Right now, I suspect the OP was written intentionally that bad to let us all think and write about it, so someone could laugh about the amount of time that's being wasted here. Please close the topic. "Real" programmers don't have to talk about that.
:^p
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#164179 - sgeos - Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:02 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| Right now, I suspect the OP was written intentionally that bad to let us all think and write about it, so someone could laugh about the amount of time that's being wasted here. |
If this was a trolling attempt, it was successful, but I do not think that is the case. The OP has hundreds of posts, and they appear to have real content for the most part. I suspect this is just a conversation that did not really work out.
#164181 - no2pencil - Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:20 am
| silent_code wrote: |
| Please close the topic. "Real" programmers don't have to talk about that. |
Not to rock the boat... but *sarcastic* that's an awesome attitude to have on a message board. My understanding is this style of communication is geared towards actual discussion. Since it's in an "off topic" forum, I thought it was free game.
That aside,
| tepples wrote: |
| But how many shared web hosting providers allow a customer to compile and upload an executable, or to compile an executable on the server? |
I was coming from the mind set that I run web servers & hosting & I didn't take into account general public wouldn't use or have access to binaries. silent_code is more correct that cgi is in fact a gateway, & not a language.
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#164223 - tepples - Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:00 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| Please close the topic. "Real" programmers don't have to talk about that. |
So far, I haven't noticed any spam, piracy, or other dickery going on. If real programmers don't want to discuss usage of the term "scripting language", they can just skip the topic.
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#164237 - sgeos - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:13 am
Because none of us who use assembled or compiled languages are "real progammers". =P Imagine that. Fantastic read.
#164262 - silent_code - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:40 pm
OFFTOPIC!
You (multiple individuals) are interpreting a lot, from what I see.
Guess why I put quotes around the word "Real"? ;^p
The word self/irony (it that's what it's called in english) comes to mind, althouhg I do realize, that this is probably very hard to detect and not so obvious in my post.
Also, I consider programmers that work with scripting languages real programmers. (Notice the lack of quotes here.) As long as people know their stuff and don't jerk around how they can "programm" in HTML (not in java script, they haven't heard of it yet). I do not attack the original poster with that in any way.
In my "defense", I could only judge from the original post (and it frustrated me a little bit, I have to admit that), which seems rediculous to start with. Anything else is fine, but should, in my opinion, be split, as most of the discussion seems offtopic, even though the subject is somewhat related.
As I understand it, this thread was started to gather some impressions wheather some languages are considered scripting languages or programming languages. I don't see a lot of post trying to elaborate on that, probably due to the rather poor quality of the original post (I don't know if the poster has a higher quality of posts or not, and in this case it doesn't matter). tondopi has only made one comment so far, which is pretty much "not right" "by definition." Because markup is not scripting, but can rather contain scripting, if specifically supported. Exel files aren't exactly scripts... But they can contain VisualBasic macros. At least in MS Office.
But hey, whatever. Smile and keep dicussing, I'm fine with it. No offense. (I truely mean it.) :^)
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July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.