#171499 - sonny_jim - Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:38 pm
read this:
http://www.dslinux.org/f0rums/viewtopic.php?p=4066
EDIT: Or this thread
http://www.dslinux.org/f0rums/viewtopic.php?t=838
I can't stop myself from getting on a high horse when confronted with situations like in the above links.
Can anyone suggest some tips or ways of responding that doesn't make me sound like a total git? I think I need to grow some thicker skin.
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Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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Last edited by sonny_jim on Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:18 am; edited 3 times in total
#171500 - DiscoStew - Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:18 pm
Beggers can't be choosers. You can't ask for help, and expect someone to do the work for you. People "guide" others, not do their homework. If they aren't willing to help themselves, then they shouldn't receive help from others.
Also, "I AM THE LAW!", lol
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#171501 - sonny_jim - Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Yeah, that's the bit I meant. I've given up on DSLinux development but I can't keep away from the forums, because I keep on seeing people being given bad advice from clueless people.
I think the solution is to get blind drunk and change my password to something I'm not likely to remember, like a keyboard mash with my face.
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| Quote: |
Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171502 - sajiimori - Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:33 pm
That's a good question.
First, place a high value on your time. Instantly, many things will cease to be worth your time. 90% of the problem is solved.
But failing that, determine whether you're obliged to be professional under the circumstances. If so... well, be professional. It works.
And if not, then you get to the fun part, which is How do I embarrass this person without being trite or lowering myself to name calling?
Terse and snarky works for me, but everyone is different. Humor is always a plus. Never, ever rant. If you rant, they win.
Finally, close your eyes and count to 10 before posting something snarky. Then read it again, and ask yourself whether you want to be that person. (My answer is sometimes "Yes, definitely! harhar")
#171506 - sonny_jim - Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:34 pm
It's a bit like the fictional 'ebay breathalyser', that won't let you bid unless it detects you are sober. I think I need something similar that detects narcissism.
When I first started on DSLinux, I often wondered why a lot of the more experienced dev's didn't respond to questions in the forums. I understand why now, you end up getting sucked into juvenile games and semantics.
I actually have a lot more respect for tepples now after seeing some of the posts I've written over there and can empathise with a lot of coders who have to deal with their 'customers'.
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Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171508 - Ant6n - Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:16 am
Don't beat yourself up. The guy was a jerk. He got what he had coming to him. The only unfortunate thing is that because of people like that you don't wanna work on your project anymore -- and it's a tad bit ironic that now instead of spending time on doing that, you rather talk to the fools.
#171510 - sonny_jim - Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:08 am
Yeah, as I said, for some strange reason I just can't stop myself from posting, even though I haven't so much as booted DSLinux in over 3 months now.
In a way it worked out pretty good for me, I learned a lot not only about Linux and the DS, but also about how you deal with a project like that, how to priotise what needs to be done etc etc.
It was great fun actually using and understanding the DS technical documents like gbatek rather than just doing port after port after port. It was a great feeling the first time I 'tickled' a register and had the screen brightness change.
It wasn't just the users that made me leave, there was the fact that pretty much everything interesting had been done already. Put on top of that the inherent bloat of the Linux kernel it was clear to me that the idea of running a reasonable GUI under DSLinux was never going to happen. Still, I did some cool stuff.
My personal favourite was running perl based forum software on the DS (close second was wireless MP3 streaming, which worked better than I could of imagined). Completely pointless, but I thought it was cool. But that's why people code as a hobby, isn't it? To make something happen that they think is cool.
I've since moved on to a much more fun project, which is replacement software for Pinball machines. It's mainly the work of one very clever guy, thankfully he's done pretty much all the hard work so I can use my tiny amount of C knowledge to code rulesets/animations etc.
I got bitten by the pinball bug about 3-4 years ago and ended up spending far too much money on a Twilight Zone. It's given me that old feeling back again, that strange excitement when you try your code on hardware for the first time. It's much more fun to burn an EPROM than it is to just copy something onto an SD card.
There's something to be said about working with limited hardware, the DS is a supercomputer compared to what I'm working with now. I get a 2MHz Motorola 6809, 512KB rom that's paged into 16KB of RAM, now that's what I call an embedded system :-)
Main website:
http://www.oddchange.com/freewpc/
Source code is here (it's actually quite fun to read, at least I think so):
http://github.com/bcd/freewpc
p.s The videos on the main website doesn't really reflect the current state of the project, it's actually quite mature now. If anyone wants help trying it out in Visual Pinball (Pinball table emulator) PM me and I'll help you out best I can.
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Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171520 - sgeos - Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:19 pm
Realize that you don't owe anyone anything on an internet forum.
Clearly the OP did not realize that, and wasted your time.
And then you decided to waste even more of your time by typing at someone who has not grown up enough to read simple documentation.
If you don't want to sound like "a total git", just don't act like one.
If you don't care how you come across, act however you please.
The time value advice is good.
If it is worth your time to play 'forum police' than go ahead.
I think, however, that the best way of responding to something like that is not to respond at all.
Let other people make fools of themselves and get tea or hot chocolate or whatever you do.
At times you can also just refer someone to documentation... it's like responding, but not dignifying the question.
Looks like the mod did that.
(Now, sometimes forum mods owe people something, but nothing good. =)
#171529 - Optihut - Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:54 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| Looks like the mod did that. |
I thought that sonny_jim was that mod, who did that. Did I misunderstand the topic?
#171532 - sonny_jim - Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:23 pm
I was/am the only active mod on the DSLinux for over a year, so yes, it probably was me.
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| Quote: |
Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171536 - sgeos - Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:42 am
In that case, I'm don't think you needed to get personally involved.
On the other hand, if you enjoy getting involved, then by all means go for it.
It is a matter of knowing why you participate.
After you figure that out, proper behavior follows.
#171539 - Vague Rant - Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:51 am
While I'm aware this isn't the answer you're looking for, I think an element like yourself probably benefits most boards, as it generates an atmosphere of a community not particularly interested in tolerating morons. That alone may not seem like such a positive, but it encourages people to read and learn before they ask stupid questions, for fear of being rebuffed. Ultimately this benefits everyone, because it means less crap posts and more knowledgeable users, the only costs being bruised feelings among those making the crap posts, and frustration on the end of the authority for having to deal with them, although they'd be dealing with more of them if they were to suffer fools politely. Ultimately I think the ideal is spreading out the disdain over several people; GBAdev is filled with people who know what they're doing and don't tolerate lazy users well, such that it's never one person dealing with all of the crap, which keeps things at an acceptable level for all involved. On the DSLinux board, there's not enough people treating idiots like idiots, so it all falls to you to handle, which is what's leaving you frustrated.
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#171816 - keldon - Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:53 pm
| Quote: |
But now I don't know which SLOT-2 devices actually work with DSLinux. So i'd like to hear which SLOT-2 cards are the best ones to use.
plz don't point me to the wiki, I know there's a list, but I want to hear from someone if it works on his/her ds. |
He is not lazy, he is asking for a human opinion as clearly he has no confidence that he will have adequate information from the list.
Some times you *should* look at the documentation first, but there are many instances where doing so leaves you back where you started; not knowing what decision to take as you cannot compare them without purchasing them.
It appears to be a classic case of conscious incompetence; he is aware that he is not (or may not be) aware of something he knows.
We can all be guilty of being overzealous of our own perspective, expecting others to accept it (since it is reasonable). Accepting that ways over than your own can work equally as well helps resolve these issues (in yourself), so just because you would not ask does not mean others should not. I tend to be overzealous over logical reasoning; I hate poor logic being applied to reach premature conclusions. I'm sure you can see that in a lot of my posts on topics, such as the effects of piracy.
In fact consider this:
- a google or forum search query takes as much (in fact less) effort than writing a thread in a forum, so clearly they are not lazy
- reading a post on a forum takes as much effort as reading a page in a wiki, so clearly they (again) are not lazy
What is difference is what you expect; sure I can look at the feature set of visual studio and XCode, but in case there is something I am overlooking I also search for people's opinions in forums. Sure I don't ask, but it's the same as asking (IMO), just a little more time consuming and inefficient.
Hope it helps :)
#171826 - sonny_jim - Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:20 pm
| Quote: |
He is not lazy, he is asking for a human opinion
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So, I give them my human opinion, which is 'Teach a man to fish'.
| Quote: |
In fact consider this:
- a google or forum search query takes as much (in fact less) effort than writing a thread in a forum, so clearly they are not lazy
- reading a post on a forum takes as much effort as reading a page in a wiki, so clearly they (again) are not lazy
|
Err, what?
In my view, they are lazy because they don't want to use their brain, they want someone to spell it out for them. In the case above ('Which slot-2') we have carefully provided a list of things that work in the wiki which is a single click away, but they are still refusing to read it!
If they are too lazy to click on a link I've supplied then why should I bother helping them?
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Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171830 - keldon - Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:59 am
Create a good community and it will take care of itself.
| Nielesonimusso wrote: |
| I want to hear from someone if it works on his/her ds |
Note the reason for their query, they want to hear from someone if it works on his/her DS. Now I won't bother ponder on why, but my first response would have been, "why"? We have tested them, what exactly are you asking for? Do you suspect some will not work? That list has been thoroughly tested,
| someguy wrote: |
| you're wrong mouse man, it stopped being fun when you started taking it so seriously. I don't know why you feel it is your obligation to answer questions, but you must see that simply not answering is a lot more beneficial than trying to put people down with comments like FAIL. I would hate to think I have killed your passion for ds linux, but if i've killed your passion for answering everyones questions, then hey! maybe it was time. |
There is *some* truth in what he has said, in short you could just have easily have said, "you could have found that by searching, which we prefer since too many of the same questions are asked".
| sonny_jim wrote: |
| Quote: |
He is not lazy, he is asking for a human opinion
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So, I give them my human opinion, which is 'Teach a man to fish'.
| Quote: |
In fact consider this:
- a google or forum search query takes as much (in fact less) effort than writing a thread in a forum, so clearly they are not lazy
- reading a post on a forum takes as much effort as reading a page in a wiki, so clearly they (again) are not lazy
|
Err, what?
In my view, they are lazy because they don't want to use their brain, they want someone to spell it out for them. In the case above ('Which slot-2') we have carefully provided a list of things that work in the wiki which is a single click away, but they are still refusing to read it!
If they are too lazy to click on a link I've supplied then why should I bother helping them? |
Hmm; it's all about perspective. They can "use their brain" all they want, but what good is it if they know based on past experiences that it will lead them to a situation where they know they cannot trust their inconclusive state?
Post the link and tell them the answer is there.
It's far too easy to assume they are asking because they don't want to think, or read. But really it could just as easily be they don't want to make the error of making an error, and what better way than knowing the thoughts of someone who knows? Especially something that takes 0 time to answer as opposed to hours of pondering and testing ... sounds inefficient.
And just think of all the misinformation available; even read this forum for people with differing thoughts on the same topic. Then it is clearly obvious that these people have made their own (faulty) conclusions, which these "question askers" would much rather avoid.
Besides, what worse way to "encourage" someone to do something "you" think is better than to "insult" them and say something negative to invoke negative feelings? Would it not be much wiser to answer kindly? Tell them that the answer is in the XYZ manual, tell them that everything they want to know is there and to ask questions to confirm their understanding ...
---
... and then there is the other school of thought. Why should they give it a second thought? Sure you wanted to invest the time learning it, but it would be terribly foolish for one to expect oneself to learn everything in the world. Sometimes it is wiser to ask someone to tell you an answer so that you can spend time elsewhere - paint more pictures, fix more cars. So you say it only takes 5 seconds for them to look? Then surely it's not laziness, but a false expectation. Change their expectation and encourage them to look - you will yield much better results. Not only will that person have more confidence in reading for themselves, but others are more likely to follow.
---
Here's another thought; you are asking a question here that you *could* have found out by studying communication, learning, perception and human knowledge. But you (presumably) know in yourself that it would be wiser to ask first since you don't know where to start ... I do know where to start to find that answer, but that's only because I studied pedagogy. And why should you learn it if you could just get the answer much quicker in an area you don't need (or feel the need) to further.
---
That being said it can be annoying, but only (and only) if you let it. I have my own gripes, but rather than make it get to me, I work with it whilst trying to counteract it. Create a good community and it will take care of itself.
... Oh man this was an overly long reply, I hope I made sense :(
#171831 - wintermute - Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:25 am
Excellent reply Keldon.
If you treat people like idiots then they'll behave like idiots.
These days searching the internet for answers tends to yield a lot of conflicting information, often it's more efficient to find someone who knows the damn answer :p
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#171832 - sonny_jim - Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:04 pm
I think that's my problem, I don't tolerate idiots, which is pretty much the reason DSLinux is dead now. I don't enjoy working on something and then have to deal with people insulting me.
| Quote: |
These days searching the internet for answers tends to yield a lot of conflicting information, often it's more efficient to find someone who knows the damn answer
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My point was what do you do if you give someone the answer but they refuse to read it?
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Would that be the internet driver for the program?
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#171834 - wintermute - Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:03 pm
Well, yeah, sometimes you just have to walk away & decide that some people are beyond help. As for the insults, my old drill sergeant once told me it's all about mind over matter - if you don't mind, they don't %$# matter ;o)
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#171842 - headspin - Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:51 pm
I also think certain types of forum's attract certain types of people. The more mature the audience the less childish behavour you tend to see.
I'm a mod on a few forums but very rarely have to ban people or deal with rudeness like that. But these are places that seem to attract an older crowd.
In your case I wouldn't have a problem dealing with idiots like that by locking threads.
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