#15412 - frag - Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:53 am
Two 3 inch TFt screens allowing for two perspectives on gameplay? Dual processors? Multiple banks allowing for up to a gigabit of memory?
Holy crap. :)
What are everyone's thoughts on this beast of a handheld?
#15413 - tepples - Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:13 am
I wonder if Nintendo engineers are actually going to get their hobbyist-exclusion system right this time.
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#15414 - frag - Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:24 am
Well with their history of disagreement with companies like Lik-Sang I'm sure the issue is on their minds.
Honestly I don't see hobbyist programming in and of itself as causing any problems for Nintendo. Its the associated piracy with hobbyist dev equipment that causes all this nonsense.
I'm optimistic though. Its much cheaper to use a prexisting chip than roll your own. GameCube Dev arrived through an exploit in PSO of all things. I'm sure some crack in the armor will be found if they proactively design the DS to be 'hobbyist proof' for lack of a better term.
#15415 - Sweex - Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:09 am
| frag wrote: |
What are everyone's thoughts on this beast of a handheld? |
The first thing that comes into my mind is; "Yeah, right!". I mean, manufacturers always promise a lot more than we'll actually ever get into our hands. Dunno why, maybe to scare the other handheld manufacturers, maybe just to get people's attention.
Funny enough the second thing that came into my mind was: "Oh, that'll be just like two GBAs welded onto each other then!"
I've got no clue what this handheld will be like... Some pictures would be nice...!
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#15416 - ampz - Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:22 am
| frag wrote: |
| Two 3 inch TFt screens allowing for two perspectives on gameplay? Dual processors? Multiple banks allowing for up to a gigabit of memory? |
Sounds like you have read one rumor too much.
"Multiple banks" ? That was not in the press release I read, and I doubt N will go back to banked memory. The "Gigabit memory" refers to the maximum cart size. Not work RAM.
Dual processors sounds crazy for a handheld. The only reason I can think of for putting two processors in the thing is that perhaps the DS can function as two GBAs.
#15418 - FluBBa - Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:54 am
I read on one site that it has one ARM7 and one ARM9, and they also said that it would use rewriteable (flash cards) media. I dont know if the last thing was some kind of confusion between this new console and the I-Que or if it really is Nintendos new strategy.
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#15420 - SimonB - Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:44 pm
Yeah, NOJ wrote on its site about the ARM9/ARM7 cpu's (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n10/news/040121.html).
Perhaps the ARM7 is the same as is in the GBA to be able to run GBA games (on one of the screens) and used in conjuction with the ARM9 for DS games.
#15421 - ampz - Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:58 pm
ARM9 is backwards compatible with ARM7, so you don't have to stick two CPUs in it to get GBA compatibility. No, there must be some other reason.. Of course, the reason may simply be that they decided it is pratical to have one CPU controlling each display instead of one CPU controlling both.
And no, there is no way N will distribute games on flash media :) 1Gig flash memory is really expensive. They'd have to charge USD100 per game, and piracy would skyrocket.
Anyway, this sounds like a very interesting hobbyists dev platform.
#15422 - FluBBa - Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:16 pm
Well if the carts are flashbased then why would that require a price of USD100 for each game?
The idea with a flashcart is that you pay a lot for the cart and a smaller amount for each game.
This is the whole concept of I-Que.
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#15428 - JonH - Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:27 pm
mmmm... i've seen this somewhere before!
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deffo :)
#15440 - frag - Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:38 pm
| Quote: |
| Sounds like you have read one rumor too much. |
From http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040120/206239_1.html&e=7627
| Quote: |
| Nintendo DS features two separate 3-inch TFT LCD display panels, separate processors, and semiconductor memory of up to 1 Gigabit. It's scheduled to launch worldwide before the end of 2004. |
Several news sources have included this.
[/quote]
#15441 - tepples - Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:43 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| ARM9 is backwards compatible with ARM7 |
Not cycle accurate. ARM9's pipeline is different. Apparently, games that use cycle-timing tests to distinguish "authentic" hardware from "pirate" emulation would fail on any other ARM model.
| Quote: |
| And no, there is no way N will distribute games on flash media :) |
For one thing, iQue. For another, some semiconductor mfrs make OTP flash media that can be programmed once but not erased.
| Quote: |
| 1Gig flash memory is really expensive. They'd have to charge USD100 per game, and piracy would skyrocket. |
Manufacturers flash memory for PCs, cameras, and other non-gaming consumer electronics typically express sizes in megabytes, not megabits. This Froogle query finds me 1 gigabit of flash memory plus a USB Mass Storage controller for under 42 USD.
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#15445 - DekuTree64 - Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:12 pm
So if it has two screens, where are they going to put the buttons? At least without it being huge. I guess it would work if they have it shaped like the original GBA, with the second screen where it folds down on top of the normal one. It would also be a nice built-in scratch protector^_^
I wonder if they're different resolutions though. I guess it would make more sense to have them seprate if one is 240x160 for GBA compatibility and the other is higher for the new games.
And according to that Japanese paper, they're backlit too, so that's definately an improvement. Hope it doesn't soak too much battery power though.
Giving you access to both CPUs is nice too, I always wondered what GBA would have been like if you could run the GBC CPU to do some extra work in the background.
I hope it's not too hobbyist-proof though, it sounds like fun trying to come up with new ways to use the seprate screens.
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#15457 - frag - Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:11 pm
Nintendo has been quoted as saying that they are marketing this seperately from the GBA. Do you all think this implies something like the SNES->N64 transfer where they said they'd support both and then slowly phased out the SNES?
Or rather, does this imply a truly new product category for Nintendo?
#15477 - ampz - Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:20 pm
I was refering to the "banked memory" part.
| tepples wrote: |
| ampz wrote: | | ARM9 is backwards compatible with ARM7 |
Not cycle accurate. ARM9's pipeline is different. Apparently, games that use cycle-timing tests to distinguish "authentic" hardware from "pirate" emulation would fail on any other ARM model.
|
True..
| tepples wrote: |
| Quote: | | And no, there is no way N will distribute games on flash media :) |
For one thing, iQue. For another, some semiconductor mfrs make OTP flash media that can be programmed once but not erased.
| Quote: | | 1Gig flash memory is really expensive. They'd have to charge USD100 per game, and piracy would skyrocket. |
Manufacturers flash memory for PCs, cameras, and other non-gaming consumer electronics typically express sizes in megabytes, not megabits. This Froogle query finds me 1 gigabit of flash memory plus a USB Mass Storage controller for under 42 USD. |
Yes, I know about the Ique, but they will not try that with the DS.
Hate to break it to you, but a USD42 flash memory will put a complete cart pretty close to USD100. And no, Nintendo cannot get significantly lower priced flash memories than you can buy compact flash or USB memories.
| frag wrote: |
Nintendo has been quoted as saying that they are marketing this seperately from the GBA. Do you all think this implies something like the SNES->N64 transfer where they said they'd support both and then slowly phased out the SNES?
Or rather, does this imply a truly new product category for Nintendo? |
My guess is that the DS is supposed to compete in the PSP product category. The PSP is supposed to be quite large, and have a battery life of two hours or so. Definitely not the same product category as the GBA.
#15478 - MumblyJoe - Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:45 pm
Well Nintendo claim it will be marketed seperately from thier existing systems, so I doubt that it will play GBA games. Also, the SP is making record sales right now according to nintendo so I think the GBA will be around for a while yet, I think this is just something else cool to buy.
Two ARM CPU's huh? I wonder if this is just an excuse to not put in a proper 3D chip... Personally I am hanging out to see what can be done, if they are faster chips aswell.
Anyway, whatever it is, I recomend everyone have a couple of hundred bucks minumum saved up for xmas for this new toy and it's release games.
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#15480 - ampz - Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:11 am
| MumblyJoe wrote: |
| Well Nintendo claim it will be marketed seperately from thier existing systems, so I doubt that it will play GBA games. Also, the SP is making record sales right now according to nintendo so I think the GBA will be around for a while yet. |
Sounds like a good reason to make this new device support GBA games.
| MumblyJoe wrote: |
| Two ARM CPU's huh? I wonder if this is just an excuse to not put in a proper 3D chip... Personally I am hanging out to see what can be done, if they are faster chips aswell. |
A ARM9 at decent clock frequency will be more than enough to create rather spectacular 3D for such a low resolution screen.
The advantage with a high performance CPU instead of a dedicated 3D chip is that is can be used for other purposes than 3D graphics as well.
#15486 - poslundc - Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:12 am
| ampz wrote: |
| The advantage with a high performance CPU instead of a dedicated 3D chip is that is can be used for other purposes than 3D graphics as well. |
The disadvantage is that you need to build your 3D libraries yourself. People love programming the GBA because so many aspects of the graphical display (sprites, backgrounds, etc.) are already supported in hardware.
Other handhelds that have built-in 3D technology may attract more developers than a bare-bones CPU/video display.
Dan.
#15491 - tepples - Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:53 am
| poslundc wrote: |
| you need to build your 3D libraries yourself. |
Not necessarily. If a reasonable implementation of 3D graphics comes either in the BIOS or in the libraries distributed as part of the official development kit, then licensees have a situation similar to that of the initial PS1 and Xbox licensees.
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-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#15497 - FluBBa - Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:56 am
| ampz wrote: |
| Yes, I know about the Ique, but they will not try that with the DS. |
Oh?
Have you got some more insider news?
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#15498 - Sweex - Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:57 am
I wonder why nobody has asked this question already: Why on earth two screens? What is the advantage of having two screens over one big(ger) screen?
I can only see games that do the "mario bros" trick and use two screens as one, so you can walk from one screen to the other.
The only other way to use the two screens can have an advantage when you play a game with two players on one machine (depending on the position of the screens).
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#15500 - ampz - Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:21 pm
map.. inventory.. different perspective...
two screens make the thing foldable.
#15503 - poslundc - Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:48 pm
You've gotta give them credit, they certainly are innovating in a way no one else has before...
Of course, the Virtual Boy was innovative too.
It might drive some developers away... there will probably be a stigmata associated with it that unless your game concept makes effective use of both screens it won't be worthwhile to make it.
Dan.
#15505 - col - Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:32 pm
| Sweex wrote: |
| I wonder why nobody has asked this question already: Why on earth two screens? What is the advantage of having two screens over one big(ger) screen?... |
I was also thinking about this - and had an intresting if unlikely idea:
why two screens? where do the buttons go?
...a unit with two touch sensitive screens and no buttons.
would be no good for most traditional video games, however, might be able to support a whole slew of new ways to entertain people ?
the unit could be very flexible:
having the main display on one screen and a per-app custom control set on the other screen for mp3 player, movie player, pda type applications...
I'm sure some great games could be created - games that have an appeal far wider that those requiring dpad and buttons...
maybe with a socket to take an optional controller for traditional video games...
cheers
Col
#15532 - frag - Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:34 am
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200401/N04.0121.1808.42530.htm
An interview with NOA's directer of PR. Typical Nintendo interview, but a few clarifications. :)
Frag
#15533 - tepples - Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:23 am
I'll sum it up:- 1 Gigabit carts.
- Each of the two screens is slightly bigger than a GBA screen in physical size; the interview gives no hints about resolution.
- The screens are stacked vertically as in Donkey Kong G&W, not horizontally as in Mario Bros. G&W.
- ARM CPUs.
- Nintendo will continue to publish more information between now and the E3 expo in May.
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#15534 - sgeos - Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:43 am
Two screens can be used for a bunch of things.
Imagine an Ogre Battle clone with the map on one screen and the battles on the other. A lot of the Neo Geo Puzzle games were either player VS AI, or player VS player. Instead of a split screen you could give each player their own screen.
Imagine metroid with an xray scope that uses the second screen, while the first screen is a normal display. A link to the past that displays the light world and dark world on separate screens- you can phase between them.
An old school Dragon Quest style RPG that shows the enemies on one screen, and the party on the other.
-Brendan
#15535 - tepples - Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:53 am
Most puzzle games are vertically oriented anyway; the TV is split left/right. Even the Game Boy Advance versions of Puyo Pop and Super Puzzle Fighter II show both players' fields on the same screen. Can anybody name one cousin of Tetris with a top/bottom split screen?
For your 1-player suggestions, why not just use one big vertical screen a la Pocket PC and split it in software? Are the yields that much better for LCD panels half the size?
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#15537 - sgeos - Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:49 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Most puzzle games are vertically oriented anyway; the TV is split left/right. Even the Game Boy Advance versions of Puyo Pop and Super Puzzle Fighter II show both players' fields on the same screen. Can anybody name one cousin of Tetris with a top/bottom split screen? |
I'll admit that it is not a strong argument- I'm more or less exploring possibilities. With a full screen you can display full score information or have a wider playing field. Neo Geo Puzzle Bobble and Magical Drop 2 have full screen one player modes, and "half" screen two player modes.
From a game and interface design perspective, I'm not convinced that hiding the other player's data is not the best way to go. This is not possible with a TV, but is a feature inherent to a portable.
| Quote: |
| For your 1-player suggestions, why not just use one big vertical screen a la Pocket PC and split it in software? Are the yields that much better for LCD panels half the size? |
That depends on the the player. My short answer is- "No, it should not matter whether the output is on one screen or two." The way things should be and the way things are is not always the same. By having two separate screens you force everybody (the players and programmers) to treat each screen as a separate portal into the game world. I don't see it as much more than forcing a mental attitude.
There are a couple of hardware related perks of having two screens. First- if you don't need a screen and it can be turned off, that may well save battery power. Second- if each screen has separate display code, and each operates on the game state (presumably in a read only fashion), then you can stick one screen with light display code and save battery power.
There is another funny (dev only) use for two screens I thought of- put the game on one screen and the debug/terminal messages on the other. =) One could actually do something similar in a release game- push the text to one screen and isolate the action elements on the other.
You could also think of each screen as a window in GUI OS. For example, imagine a cooperative multiplayer game. One screen could be yours, and the other one could display what your friend sees. You could scroll through your friends' (or even NPC's) screens using L and R, or set the screen to a status display if you feel like being "antisocial".
-Brendan
#15538 - sgeos - Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:59 am
Presumably each screen can be operating in a different video mode.
EDIT: If we have two processors, do you suppose we can have one interrupt the other?
-Brendan
#15544 - poslundc - Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:31 pm
Depending on the gamepad layout, it may be feasible to have side-by-side screens as well as vertically stacked screens. You'd just have to rotate the unit 90 degrees.
Dan.
#15548 - tepples - Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:47 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| If we have two processors, do you suppose we can have one interrupt the other? |
Depends on if they're in a symmetric multiprocessing layout with shared memory or in a Super NES style bullpoop layout with the second CPU's only access to the game logic being through a slow asynchronous parallel port to the other CPU.
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#15554 - DiscoStew - Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:13 pm
As much as I'd like to know more along with the rest of the people, I think it be best that we just be patient, and let them spill the beans at E3. Remember, the competition is listening also, and there are quite a few months for either company to make changes (to counter the other's designs). However, I'd like to throw in my two cents...
(NOTE: This is just me thinking, so don't take it as anything official, or even something likely to happen)
I think the NDS has the capability of playing GBA games. The ARM7 CPU is just about the same as the GBA's CPU (except for it being modified), and perhaps it can be programmed to run at the same frequency as the GBA (perhaps to be able to get past the cycle-accuracy problem). I doubt there will be a GBA cart slot on it, but there is always an attachment that could be made (as long as it is not bulky).
I don't mind the fact that it has two screen vertically stacked, but I hope that they can design it to make the screen as close together as possible for it to act like one screen. If the resolution were ratioed much like the GBA (240x160 -- 1.5:1), then the lower portion of the upper screen could be part of the lower screen, while stuff like stats, dialogue, etc. could be on the upper portion of the upper screen (or vise versa). This is mainly because I didn't like how vertically the screen was small.
I also hope that each CPU isn't dedicated to a specific screen, because if one screen shows simple data like a map, or objective stuff, that won't require alot of CPU, so perhaps a portion of the slower CPU could be used for that, and the rest for the more complex stuff. Heck, even disable one of the screens, and set both CPUs for use on one screen.
As most people hope for, at least allow for another 2 face buttons. It would just makes things easier.
If the big N were to use any type of flash card for the NDS, they would need it set up (if possible) so that the portion that the actual ROM is laid in would be non-erasable/rewritable, and the rest would be for games save, customized data from in-game editors, maybe some MP3s.......the possibilities are endless.
I doubt that since it has two screen it would allow for 2-player games on one system. Sure, the other screen could flip around, and maybe an extra controller could be attachhed, but heck, I wouldn't want to be player 2, especially if the 1st player is unsteady with his/her hands, and I can't get a clear focus on the screen I'm using. Plus, I wouldn't want to be THAT close to another player, unless it was my girlfriend (if I had one).
IMHO, the NDS will soon enough be competing with the PSP. They are being released around the same time (late 2004), and they are both new to their fields (PSP with portables, and NDS with some other category according to the big N). It's inevitable. This could be the reason why full, or even extra, information about the NDS is kept secret, because, like I said before, the competition is listening. Any change between E3 and the supposed release date isn't as much possible as from now till their supposed release date.
Nintendo has usually been inventive with it's products, making things that other companies copy in later months. and I think this may be one of those that become successful. Let's all hope that what their doing is done right.
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#15560 - sgeos - Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:44 pm
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| I also hope that each CPU isn't dedicated to a specific screen, because if one screen shows simple data like a map, or objective stuff, that won't require alot of CPU, so perhaps a portion of the slower CPU could be used for that, and the rest for the more complex stuff. Heck, even disable one of the screens, and set both CPUs for use on one screen. |
Dedicating a CPU to each screen seems like a broken way of doing things to me. So long as there is some shared memory and a way of having one CPU interrupt the other, I'm will not complain too much if each cpu has exclusive access to one screen's memory display registers.
Without a CPU interrupt, I think that this thing will be a real pain. In real life, I am able to say things like- "I don't have anything for you to do right now, but I'll tell you if anything comes up." or "Go wash the dishes and tell when you are done." I'd like to have the CPUs work in much the same way. Alternative methods seem broken to me- I really want an "I'm done"/"Time to get to work" interrupt.
| Quote: |
| As most people hope for, at least allow for another 2 face buttons. It would just makes things easier. |
That would be really nice, but I do not think that adding the extra face buttons will be the system's defining feature. For the most part I have not been impressed with Nintendo's "controllers". The NES was great, and the SNES was a step up. One of my friends is convinced that the N64 controller was made for three handed people. (I only have two hands.) Although the GC controller is better than the N64 (IMHO), the layout seems a little unnatural to me.
| Quote: |
| IMHO, the NDS will soon enough be competing with the PSP. |
I don't see how the PSP can compete with the GBA. The price is too high. Look at the N-Gage. I think that the NDS will be in much the same boat. Nintendo has no need to compete themself, and unless the NDS plays GBA carts I think that that is exactly what Nintendo will end up doing.
| Quote: |
| Nintendo has usually been inventive with it's products, making things that other companies copy in later months. and I think this may be one of those that become successful. Let's all hope that what their doing is done right. |
Nintendo has done a good job with some products (that Pikachu pedometer), and a bad job with others (virtual boy). If something is not supported by third parties, even if it is awesome, I think that the chances of it working out are slim (Super Scope).
Those are just my opinions...
-Brendan
#15627 - Sweex - Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:04 am
Strongest argument (for me anyway) so far for having two seperate screens instead of one big is that you can have different videomodes. Still having doubts about it, but I'm sure Nintendo thought this over well and have they're own vision on the advantages of two seperate screens!
So... I guess only time will tell!:)
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