#26080 - DiscoStew - Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:46 am
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there was a small development group that was doing a remake of the 10 most memorable scenes of Chrono Trigger in full 3D glory called "Chrono Trigger Resurrection" This would have been as a playable demo on the PC at the end of this year, and demos given to companies for the PS2 and GameCube.
Unfortunately, they were given a "Cease and Desist" order by Square Enix themselves, telling them to stop further development of the demo. It is actually kind of a surprise considering how far along the project was without a single word from Square Enix to stop. It was even reported that on one of the logs recorded that Square Enix downloaded a song composed by the develpment team's musician, Mathew Valente, from the website which was called "Corridors of Time". To me, it seems that Square Enix must have been watching over the project for some time now, and have only now decided for them to stop. Obviously the team was not going to create the entire game, only a small demo of the 10 scenes, but if Square Enix told them to stop, perhaps Square Enix have something up their sleeve pertaining to their game, or they don't want anyone doing anything related to their games in any shape or form. This is just my opinion. If Square Enix were to do their own 3D version of Chrono Trigger, I think they should hire those group of individuals responsible for the beautiful work that was put in for Chrono Trigger Resurrection.
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#26084 - poslundc - Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:55 pm
While I sympathize with these people, I don't know why they wouldn't devote their considerable talents to creating an original work in the first place.
Dan.
#26085 - Abscissa - Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:15 pm
It's amazing how uptight big companies like that can be, to the point of shooting themselves in the foot. Sending a C&D to a fan-made homage? That's just plain stupid.
#26086 - keldon - Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:23 pm
They must have seen it as some sort of threat to their own abilities. I hope they develop a successful game and kid square from behind for that.
#26090 - zazery - Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:52 pm
Too bad it had to end. It's the first time I have heard of this project. The graphics look amazing from the screenshots. Quite a bit of time was spent creating the project. I always hate it when legal action gets in the way of a good game.
Edit: Ok I just saw the trailer and wow that game looks professional. It's a real shame that it will never be released. Square Enix should definitely hire them to complete the game.
#26092 - poslundc - Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:32 pm
I have to be honest; I've never quite comprehended the position everyone seems to be taking here.
I know that I wouldn't exactly be thrilled with people messing around with the graphics/story for a game I created. If they want to do it just for themselves, then fine, but if they plan on releasing it to the public it's a clear infringement of copyright.
Why wouldn't this group just turn their (clearly ample) talents towards an original creation? Or, if they want to remake CT that badly, remake it and then send it to Square directly for publishing consideration, but don't involve the public in the middle.
I find it hard to pity them or feel outraged at Square's actions when they surely should've seen this coming from day one. And it's not like Square is preventing them from making a game, just not their game.
Dan.
#26095 - DiscoStew - Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:49 pm
Yes, I admit they were stepping out of bounds with Square Enix with the demo. The entire development team (or most of them) were really big fans of the game, and they thought it would be cool to make a 3D demo version of it. They had tried to get in contact with Square Enix about this before, but they didn't reply. Sure they could have devoted their time to something original, but they were fans. I know of at least one other group trying to make a 3D Chrono Trigger, but they are creating it as a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004. I'll have to find that site again since I forgot where it is. They'll probably be taken down also.
As much respect as I have towards Square Enix with their decision on this, why didn't they stop it sooner? I know for a fact as well as others that had been to that site before this order is that Square Enix had been hanging around there, and for some time too. They were getting very professional with it, and perhaps that is the reason why now they decided to do something about it. It's still a shame that something so beautiful was taken down. However, they did say that they are coming back with something new and fresh. They will undoubtfully use most of the engine from Chrono Trigger Resurrection for this new game. I even wonder if the entire team will still stay together for this. The music was great, and the graphics were superb.
EDIT: I found the site, and I can tell you they will most definitely be given a "Cease and Desist" order, if CTR had to stop. The website is www.chrono-trigger.com. When looking for the website, I came across something about the CTR crew which may or may not be true but some of the team had actually work on the original game for the SNES. What is true is that CTR was shown at E3, and Square Enix showed no problems about it, or at least to the public.
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#26097 - poslundc - Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:18 pm
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| Yes, I admit they were stepping out of bounds with Square Enix with the demo. The entire development team (or most of them) were really big fans of the game, and they thought it would be cool to make a 3D demo version of it. They had tried to get in contact with Square Enix about this before, but they didn't reply. |
In fairness, I don't think Squenix has any particular responsibility to respond to every fan that sends them an e-mail saying that they wanna remake <game x> for <platform y> and can they please get permission, yadda yadda. This group happened to take it further than 99% of others, but Square had no way of knowing that would happen.
| Quote: |
| As much respect as I have towards Square Enix with their decision on this, why didn't they stop it sooner? |
That's a self-defeating question... one might just as easily ask why they didn't stop it later? ;) They sent it when they sent it... they shouldn't have to bother sending C&D letters to every little fan-project that starts up, and at the same time it seems to me that it was very responsible for them to send it when they did, long before the project materialized into something more cohesive and the team wasted even more effort than they already had so far.
| Quote: |
| I know for a fact as well as others that had been to that site before this order is that Square Enix had been hanging around there, and for some time too. |
How do you know this? Had there been prior correspondence from Square on the matter?
Dan.
#26099 - SimonB - Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:12 pm
| poslundc wrote: |
| How do you know this? Had there been prior correspondence from Square on the matter? |
I think it was because of the logs...
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| It was even reported that on one of the logs recorded that Square Enix downloaded a song composed by the develpment team's musician, Mathew Valente, from the website which was called "Corridors of Time". |
But then again....just because someone at Square downloaded a song doesnt mean they officially know about the project. What if this person (the janitor maybe? ;) didnt report it to someone higher up?
Simon
#26102 - DiscoStew - Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:25 pm
OK, correction on my part. CTR wasn't shown at E3. The source where I got that from was incorrect, after having found the Official CTR Web forums. Take a look if you'd like.
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#26108 - sgeos - Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:05 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| why didn't they stop it sooner? |
A) Most projects fail without any intervention.
B) Lawyers are expense (~$100 an hour)
-Brendan
#26110 - Abscissa - Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:34 am
| poslundc wrote: |
| I know that I wouldn't exactly be thrilled with people messing around with the graphics/story for a game I created. If they want to do it just for themselves, then fine, but if they plan on releasing it to the public it's a clear infringement of copyright. |
I guess it's just a matter of differing personal opinions, but if there was a group of people that liked one of my games so much that they devoted time and effort to mimicking it, and even improving on it, I would be more than thrilled. If they were selling it, I would probably want some sort of cut/arrangement, but without commercial exploitation, that's not even an issue.
Plus, complaining about it and sending legal threats would be just like saying "You're some of my biggest fans, so you can go to hell" or like saying "You're allowed to like my game, as long as you don't like it too much, and if you even think of thanking me or showing appreciation for my work, than I'm bringing you DOWN!" It just doesn't make any sense, copyright or no. I haven't looked at it yet so I don't know the exact degree of similarity, but there is the issue of fair use.
Also (still on the hypothetical "if it were my game"), if some of the people working on it were some of the same people that helped on the original, then I would even say they have a *right* to do what they're doing. After all, how the hell can you infinge on something that's part yours in the first place? (I know traditional IP law doesn't really work that way, but I have strong objections to the way a lot of that works anyway.)
#26112 - poslundc - Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:49 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| I guess it's just a matter of differing personal opinions, but if there was a group of people that liked one of my games so much that they devoted time and effort to mimicking it, and even improving on it, I would be more than thrilled. |
In most artistic circles doing such a thing without express consent of the author is considered to be a "hack" thing to do. It is frowned upon for the same reasons plagiarism is frowned upon (even if the source is credited), and it walks a fine line between being a tribute and being theft.
Of course, these opinions are academic anyway, since your opinion will be vastly different when you are a billion-dollar corporation with things like investors and accountants and the like. In the Squenix case it's not even an issue of whether any single guy approves or not; it's just unlicensed use of the company's material, plain and simple. Even the prez of the company deciding he's okay with it wouldn't necessarily make it okay for the rest of the company.
Dan.
#26163 - Miked0801 - Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:11 pm
Yep. This is an example of defending your mark. Legally, if Sqaure/Enix ignored this infringement on their IP, then the new creatores could (eventually with much lawyer power) have a legit claim to the whole Chrono Trigger license. A company must vigorously defend its material or face its loss.
Sorry, but I must side with Square/Enix on this one. That license is still making them quite a bit of money and goodwill.
#26165 - tepples - Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:35 pm
Sure, trademarks have strict use-it-or-lose-it responsibilities, and copyrights are subject to a weaker form called laches, but from Square Enix's perspective, what's wrong with offering to grant these guys a limited noncommercial license?
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#26166 - poslundc - Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:14 pm
I can think of a number of reasons, mainly because it is unlikely to be a profitable venture for them (especially considering time and money with lawyers to be invested to set up the infrastructure: the licensee may be able to cover the fee, but they certainly can't reimburse the time and effort required), and it would mean affixing their name to a product they have no quality control over.
I think a better question to ask would be what's in it for Square to do so. I don't think the opportunity cost of managing sublicensing of their games to little indie developers with no significant amount of money compares to the value of them just doing what they normally do.
Dan.
#26178 - sgeos - Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:32 pm
| poslundc wrote: |
| I think a better question to ask would be what's in it for Square to do so. |
Potentially free advertising. I can't see a strong case for that.
-Brendan