#34891 - Abscissa - Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:28 pm
I thought this was hilarious:
From http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4859:
| Quote: |
Though the PlayStation Portable continues to sell briskly in Japan, with over 800,000 units sold at last count, some problems with the system are appearing as it enters wider circulation, according to Japanese broadsheet Nikkei Business. Specifically, nearly 5,000 units of Sony's new handheld have been returned to the manufacturer for repair, due to a property of the system's design that causes the leftmost face button to malfunction. Since the button is mere millimeters away from the screen, the system designers had to fit its pressure pad slightly off to the right rather than directly underneath the button, which can make the button stick in place.
Ken Kutaragi, original PlayStation creator and father of the brand, was surprisingly blunt in his comments on the issue, suggesting: "There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to." He further dismissed claims that the location of the button is a flaw in the design by saying "The position of the buttons was something we were aiming for. It's not an error, but something we specifically strove to design that way. I think we've created the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody picks holes in the blueprints of a world-famous architect."
So far, the Japanese paper estimates that 0.6 of the units sold have been returned for repair, which doesn't necessarily indicate the extent of the problem, as it's possible some users either chose not to return their hard-to-find systems or successfully repaired it themselves. Neither Kutaragi nor Nikkei Business mentioned other confirmed issues with the recently-launched hardware, such as the flaw that causes a PSP to eject UMD discs when "twisted", or the dead pixel reports common to newly launched portable systems. -Nich Maragos |
Heheh, so basically the creator is saying "It doesn't work right, but that's how we intended it. And hey, at least it looks pretty!"
#34893 - DiscoStew - Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:19 am
| Quote: |
| "There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to." |
Adapt to flawed manufacturing? That is like telling people using a program to not do some sequence of events cause it has problems, and also telling them "hey, if you are having problems, that isn't our fault, work around it." What if the screen was having problems from this 1 button being milimeters away from it, should we just adapt to it?
Probably didn't have his bifocals on when he looked at the blueprint, cause "if you can't see a problem, then there really is no problem, is there?".
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#34894 - Miked0801 - Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:49 am
| Quote: |
I think we've created the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody picks holes in the blueprints of a world-famous architect
|
That sums it up for me. The arrogence is overpowering.
#34897 - Abscissa - Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:13 am
| DiscoStew wrote: |
| Adapt to flawed manufacturing? |
Why not? That's been their expectation of users and developers since the PS2. ;)
| Quote: |
| I think we've created the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody picks holes in the blueprints of a world-famous architect |
Aside from the arrogence, he's apperently not very familiar with Frank Lloyd Wright. Specifically, how Falling Waters had to be practically torn apart a few years ago to add a slight convex curve to the formerly flat roofs to prevent them from collapsing (which they were just about to do). Even Wright's contractors told him numerous times what was wrong with his design, and they even added more reinforcements behind his back. It's a roundabout way of saying it, but yea, people *do* pick holes in the blueprints of a world-famous architect. Quite literally, in fact ;).
| Quote: |
| There may be people that complain about its usability, but |
There's no way he could have possibly finished that sentence that would have actually made sense. Once again I feel compelled to paraphrase: "Our system is an unusable brick, but just look at that glossy finish!"
#34902 - sgeos - Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:43 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| DiscoStew wrote: | | Adapt to flawed manufacturing? |
Why not? That's been their expectation of users and developers since the PS2. ;) |
Nintendo tried something like that with the N64. It didn't work very well. I wonder if Sony will have better luck.
-Brendan
#34903 - sandymac - Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:45 am
I know it's fun to to relish Sony making a fool of themselves but this really isn't a big deal. Throughout computing history people have repeatedly made flawed products successful by adapting to interface flaws. I do think there is a glimmer of hope that started with the iPod where the masses are willing to reward products that strive harder to have fewer flaws.
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#34922 - Abscissa - Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:41 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| Abscissa wrote: | | DiscoStew wrote: | | Adapt to flawed manufacturing? |
Why not? That's been their expectation of users and developers since the PS2. ;) |
Nintendo tried something like that with the N64. It didn't work very well. I wonder if Sony will have better luck.
-Brendan |
Well, the problems with the N64 were questionble design choices. The PS2 and PSP are more a matter of, the darn things just don't work right and keep breaking down.
#35198 - sgeos - Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:00 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Well, the problems with the N64 were questionble design choices. The PS2 and PSP are more a matter of, the darn things just don't work right and keep breaking down. |
In the case of the N64, Nintendo had just come out of the SNES era. They thought they could ask developers to deal silly hardware. Sony currently seems to expect developers to ask 'how high' when they tell them to jump. I'm not sure how they expect developers to adapt to buttons that don't work, short of not using the button at all. =)
-Brendan
#35211 - Abscissa - Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:01 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| In the case of the N64, Nintendo had just come out of the SNES era. They thought they could ask developers to deal silly hardware. Sony currently seems to expect developers to ask 'how high' when they tell them to jump. I'm not sure how they expect developers to adapt to buttons that don't work, short of not using the button at all. =) |
Yup, they're ego-tripping. I really see them as being in the exact same position that Nintendo was around the SNES/N64. Letting their success get to their heads and cloud their judgement. I predict they'll have slipped quite a bit by the middle of the PS3 era, they've already started making mistakes as I thought they would. And given what I've heared about the Revolution and Evolution, Nintendo seems to be taking a very active strategy of trying to yank the rug out from under Sony, not content to just let them fall from their own mistakes.
#35212 - NoMis - Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:11 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Yup, they're ego-tripping. I really see them as being in the exact same position that Nintendo was around the SNES/N64. Letting their success get to their heads and cloud their judgement. I predict they'll have slipped quite a bit by the middle of the PS3 era, they've already started making mistakes as I thought they would. And given what I've heared about the Revolution and Evolution, Nintendo seems to be taking a very active strategy of trying to yank the rug out from under Sony, not content to just let them fall from their own mistakes. |
I would love to see a great Nintendo comeback. Afterall, they are still making the best Consoles and Games in my opinion. They designed their consoles around the games that should run on them and not in the other direction around and thats exactly the way it should be.
I dislike Sony attitude since the PS2 was released. PS1 was definitly a good console but first of all, they delayed the PS2 for so when they saw the PS1 is still doing so well. This money orrientated thinking is something I hate.
Second thing is the controller. I mean wtf they didn't even tried to improve it. It was definitly not a bad controller back then, but the analog sticks are horrible placed, it's still the only controller who has a digipad as main pad and the number of buttons is just confusing.
But the majority of the PS2 people think it's the best controller and Sony seems to think very high (just like their PSP) of their controller wich is outdated.
NoMis
#35215 - tepples - Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:34 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
| [The PS2 controller is] still the only controller who has a digipad as main pad and the number of buttons is just confusing. |
What about games that really need a digital controller, such as Tetris, WarioWare, Puyo Pop Fever, or (more on topic) anything in the Game Boy Player? My first complaint about the GameCube controller was that my thumb couldn't easily find the Control Pad, while the Hori Digital Controller was sold only in Japan, and that made me buy a Nyko Play Cube adapter so that I could use a PS2 controller with the GBP.
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#35218 - sandymac - Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:57 pm
| NoMis wrote: |
| [The PS2 controller is] still the only controller who has a digipad as main pad and the number of buttons is just confusing. |
The PS2 controller has the same number of buttons as the Xbox controller and four less than the GameCube controller (GC controller doesn't have a select, 2nd left shoulder button, and the joysticks don't press in). What makes the PS2 controller the best IMO is that it has the most accessible layout, you can press two more buttons at a time with it because of the shoulder button layout, and that all the buttons are pressure sensitive. The DS would have benefitted greatly from pressure sensitive buttons in addition to the touch screen.
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#35236 - Touchstone - Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:16 pm
| sandymac wrote: |
| The PS2 controller has the same number of buttons as the Xbox controller. |
I absolutely HATE the buttons on the Xbox. The ABXY are awkardly aligned and shaped, and you can't seem to reach the black/white buttons correctly, plus the damned controller have a BACK button (which aren't used as BACK in game menus afaik, very clever)
Argh, now I got all upset. Microsoft is a bunch of bunglers.
I do like the feel of the Xbox controller though. It feels solid and it's the perfect size for my my giant hands, unlike both the PS2 and GBA/GBA SP.
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#35245 - rusty - Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:45 am
It shouldn't surpise me that I find so much anti-Sony ranting on a dev-site for a Nintendo console. I wonder how many of you have ever developed on Sony hardware?
I have a PSP. I love it to bits. It works perfectly. Although 5,000 defective units out of the 800,000 is pretty high, and it's something that I'm sure they'll fix. Remember...the DS has been suffering from quite a few instances of dead pixels.
I don't yet own a DS, but when they're released over here I'll be sure to get one. I'm not a Sony fanboy, although I do think that they've done something special with the PSP. It's already having the same impact the PS1 had on the home console market.
I have to agree though...Ken Kutaragi is being extremely arrogant. But then, Nintendo aren't much better.
Last edited by rusty on Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
#35246 - rusty - Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:47 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| "Our system is an unusable brick, but just look at that glossy finish!" |
You obviously don't own a PSP :)
#35247 - Abscissa - Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:23 am
Ahh, so we're on to controllers now. Well then, here's my spiel:
The original (ie "Big") XBox controller is a nice size. Everything else (even the XBox's S-Controller) is too small for my comfort. (But I guess I do have big hands).
D-Pads are a major pet peeve of mine: Sony's controllers have nice D-Pads. Every other D-Pad in existence (since the end of the 16-bit era) is unusable crap. Even the GBA/DS ones, which aren't strictly bad, could still use some improvement. Dreamcast's D-Pad? Useless. MS's D-Pad (both XBox and Sidewinder)? Useless, unless all I want to push is diagonal. GC's? Too insanely small to be usable. Third party D-Pads? Never seen one that was any better than the first-party ones. All of my PC controllers: same thing. The biggest problem with D-Pads is that pushing diagonally should NOT be easier than pushing straight Up/Down/Left/Right. AAArrrggghhh!!
DualShock 2: Nicely designed overall. But my beefs:
1. The "ergonomics" on the back, just below L2/R2, induce pain in my fingers.
2. L1/R1 are too difficult to reach, the original non-DualShock PS1 controller was better with that.
3. I *hate, hate, hate* the pressure-sensitive buttons. I don't like having to press my finger down until it hurts just to prevent the guy in GTA or my car in GT3 from suddenly deciding to slow down. And speaking of racing controls:
4. The DualShock *desperately* needs Dreamcast/GC/XBox-style sholder buttons.
5. Square/Circle/Triangle? WTF? Even aside from the fact that I can never seem to remember whether Squares go to the left of Circles or vice versa, I still don't get what Sony was thinking naming buttons after shapes. Sure, maybe those are all one-syllable words in Japanese, but over here using two or three syllables for the name of a button turns every game into a darn tongue-twister.
GameCube: Mixed opinions: Non-standard botton layout makes certain types of games difficult/impossible to implement correctly on GC. However, for games designed with the GC controller in mind (such as Metroid Prime), it works *extremely* well, better than what the other systems can do. WaveBird: Aww, yea! :)
XBox Orignal ("Biggie"): Nice size, and overall well done. Except that there's too much of a bevel on A/B/X/Y: they hurt me after awhile.
XBox S-Controller ("Little"): Nice A/B/X/Y, and overall well done. Except that now it's too small. Darnit, I just can't win!
GBA (Non-SP): Too small for my poor cramped hands (Mainly because of the shoulder buttons). Metroid Fusion in particular kept leaving me in throbbing, agonizing pain in barely half-an-hour.
DS: The stylus is too small. Needs to be longer and thicker.
Dreamcast: What the hell were they thinking?!?!?
N64: Nice innovations of the first analog thumb-stick and rumble feature. But...What the hell were they thinking?!?!?
NES/SNES/Genesis: Ahh, sweet nostalgia!
Atari 2600/5200/Jaguar: What the hell were they thinking?!?!?
| NoMis wrote: |
| PS1 was definitly a good console but first of all, they delayed the PS2 for so when they saw the PS1 is still doing so well. This money orrientated thinking is something I hate. |
The GBA was complete a long time before Nintendo released it. They waited because the GBC was doing very well.
Last edited by Abscissa on Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
#35248 - Abscissa - Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:24 am
| rusty wrote: |
| Abscissa wrote: | | "Our system is an unusable brick, but just look at that glossy finish!" |
You obviously don't own a PSP :) |
It's not glossy? ;)
| rusty wrote: |
| It shouldn't surpise me that I find so much anti-Sony ranting on a dev-site for a Nintendo console. I wonder how many of you have ever developed on Sony hardware? |
I've denied it in the past, as I normally try to be as objective as possible, but I think it's about time I admit it: I'm biased towards Nintendo and against Sony.
There. I've said it. Whew! ;)
#35250 - mymateo - Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:55 am
On this subject of controllers, I'd have to say this. I started with the NES, went to SNES, then Sega Genesis, then PS1, then N64, then Gamecube. Every time I tried a new controller, I liked it better than the one before. But now, I've tried 3 variations of the XBox controller - the original big, the original small, and the 3rd party small. I don't like ANY of them. And I don't really like the PS2 controllers that much either.
But in fairness, I've never liked the GC Z-button - it's too out of the way while still being close. By that I mean that the R button was placed to be used by your index finger. The Z button is above it, so which finger do you use? That's right... your index finger. Dumb with a capital UMB. And I have to agree that the D-pad is useless as a directional pad. It's only good as an extra set of buttons that you only want to use occasionally. And the PS2 controller has nicely placed buttons all around, it's just the general shape and size of it could have been improved to make it more comfortable to hold.
As for the PSP, I'm not impressed with what I'm reading about it. I probably won't pre-order one like I did with my DS back in June, but if Sony can manage to work out some of the flaws and turn them into kinks, I might have to get one. As it is, I wouldn't want to have a handheld with no built-in protection for the screen (DS and SP had clamshell), an analog stick which could get caught on something as I'm putting it into my bag, a memory card (just another piece to lose), a button that doesn't work as it should, and a twist-activated ejection device.
Do I think Nintendo will dominate the handheld gaming market? Yes. Do I think they're going to crush Sony's shiny brick? No. It has a lot going for it, and in this day and age graphics seem to count more than anything else to enough people to make money, and the PSP has some nice freekin' graphics.
Er, that's all for now... I'll shut up.
#35254 - rusty - Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:00 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| rusty wrote: | | Abscissa wrote: | | "Our system is an unusable brick, but just look at that glossy finish!" |
You obviously don't own a PSP :) |
It's not glossy? ;)
|
Oh it's glossy alright....if you ignore the fingerprints it seems to attract li8ke a magnet.
#35267 - NoMis - Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:11 am
| rusty wrote: |
| I have a PSP. I love it to bits. It works perfectly. Although 5,000 defective units out of the 800,000 is pretty high, and it's something that I'm sure they'll fix. Remember...the DS has been suffering from quite a few instances of dead pixels. |
Yeah but dead pixel are a general problem in manufacturing and are not indendet to happen.
The postition of the PSP buttons are indendet and lead to the problems mentioned. And to say developers and users have to adept is just plain stupid. The final product is what matters most, wich in fact are the games, so the Console/handheld should be designed with that in mind.
I think Sony is just not that type of company that delivers high quality products and rather has products with flaws in it whereas Nintendo does deliver high quality products. My GBA did fall onto the ground a few times and was always alright. I highly recommend not to slip the PSP out of your hand.
I still have some interessts in the PSP since it indeed has cool stuff that the DS can't offer like the wide screen and the high quality graphics but I don't fully trust the quality of the device.
Regarding the money thinking attitute I have to admit that Nindendo does it the same way (Mario Party, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon). But I think on the other hand Nintendo does still deliver the best games and most franchises often come with new and refreshing content. I would love to see a new Nintendo franchise.
NoMis
#35322 - rusty - Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:57 am
| NoMis wrote: |
| rusty wrote: | | I have a PSP. I love it to bits. It works perfectly. Although 5,000 defective units out of the 800,000 is pretty high, and it's something that I'm sure they'll fix. Remember...the DS has been suffering from quite a few instances of dead pixels. |
Yeah but dead pixel are a general problem in manufacturing and are not indendet to happen.
The postition of the PSP buttons are indendet and lead to the problems mentioned. And to say developers and users have to adept is just plain stupid. The final product is what matters most, wich in fact are the games, so the Console/handheld should be designed with that in mind.
I think Sony is just not that type of company that delivers high quality products and rather has products with flaws in it whereas Nintendo does deliver high quality products. My GBA did fall onto the ground a few times and was always alright. I highly recommend not to slip the PSP out of your hand.
I still have some interessts in the PSP since it indeed has cool stuff that the DS can't offer like the wide screen and the high quality graphics but I don't fully trust the quality of the device.
Regarding the money thinking attitute I have to admit that Nindendo does it the same way (Mario Party, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon). But I think on the other hand Nintendo does still deliver the best games and most franchises often come with new and refreshing content. I would love to see a new Nintendo franchise.
NoMis |
Well, my square button works just fine. I'd say that the malfunctioning square buttons are due to a manufacturing error too, which has been made worse by the design of the unit itself.
#36490 - arakawa - Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:15 pm
Let me rant a little about controllers too :P
I have always hated shoulder buttons, since the snes. I just can't twist my finger enough to use all the face buttons plus the shoulders. The left shoulder buttons are the most useless. There is not a comfortable way for me to use that button while using the d-pad.
The only controller that was somewhat useable was the dreamcast one.
#36630 - sgeos - Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:26 pm
I think that the SNES was about the peak of controllers. It has enough buttons, but not too many. I do prefer the dreamcast style triggers to shoulder flaps though.
-Brendan
#36903 - Sektor - Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:50 am
Sony says the problem has been fixed .
I own a DS and I will buy a PSP when Grand Theft Auto is released for it.
#36922 - showka - Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:45 pm
| Quote: |
D-Pads are a major pet peeve of mine: Sony's controllers have nice D-Pads. Every other D-Pad in existence (since the end of the 16-bit era) is unusable crap. Even the GBA/DS ones, which aren't strictly bad, could still use some improvement. Dreamcast's D-Pad? Useless. MS's D-Pad (both XBox and Sidewinder)? Useless, unless all I want to push is diagonal. GC's? Too insanely small to be usable. Third party D-Pads? Never seen one that was any better than the first-party ones. All of my PC controllers: same thing. The biggest problem with D-Pads is that pushing diagonally should NOT be easier than pushing straight Up/Down/Left/Right. AAArrrggghhh!!
|
Over time, the PS2 Dual Shock has become my favorite controller, but the old PS controller was my most hated controller, thanks to it's insanely crappy D-pad! Maybe you don't play Street Fighter, but pushing diagonally should be equally as easy as any other direction. Sony's stupid idea of offering up four pointing prongs for you to abuse your thumb with never sat well with me, although they have improved their D-pad since the Dual Shock came out. And the placement of that pads analog stick and everything else is pretty great.
Sony is collectively evil, and all of their products should be avoided. I have a PS2, but that was because I was forced to have it thanks to my love for Metal Gear. Right now, none of the PSP games seem like must own titles, and since I'm comfortable enough with my maniliness to play on a system witha little screen (and the GBA still is the best system ever made) I think I'll hold off. I want a DS but that damn Nintendo can't seem to get the games out fast enough for it, even the ones that are already out in Japan. If I were them I'd realize that Sony is about to take over everything and would be working with developers to localize games before they even hit the streets of Japan. Other than that, I don't know if I want to get a DS since it's not as easy to develop for... :'(
#36923 - tepples - Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:29 pm
| showka wrote: |
| Maybe you don't play Street Fighter, but pushing diagonally should be equally as easy as any other direction. |
Pushing diagonally should offer a bit of tactile resistance vs. pushing straight. Otherwise, you get the problem that appears when you play Tetris with a lot of common PC D-pads: it's hard to press straight down, and pieces tend to go diagonally down and to the right. That's why I play-tested Tetanus On Drugs exclusively with an N64 controller through a USB adapter, because it had the requisite "Nintendo feel".
| Quote: |
| Sony's stupid idea of offering up four pointing prongs for you to abuse your thumb with never sat well with me |
But it might have sat well with Niиtendo's lawyers. Only recently has Niиtendo's patent on the Control Pad expired.
| Quote: |
| although they have improved their D-pad since the Dual Shock came out. And the placement of that pads analog stick and everything else is pretty great. |
I disagree. It's hard for my thumbs to reach the Dual Shock's sticks. But then large controllers such as that of the Xbox, some larger third-party GCN controllers, and even the official GameCube controller's D-pad are uncomfortable for me as well.
| Quote: |
| Sony is collectively evil, and all of their products should be avoided. |
Even Compact Disc Digital Audio, which was developed by Sony in conjunction with Philips?
| Quote: |
| If I were them I'd realize that Sony is about to take over everything and would be working with developers to localize games before they even hit the streets of Japan. |
But then you get Mr. Driller DS (U), which was rushed so fast that they left out DS Download Play.
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#36945 - showka - Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:30 am
Tetanus on Drugs was f'ing amazing. It's one of the few games I show my (casual, usually uninterested in games) friends. They don't seem how I can play it for so long and still see the pieces. It and Wonky Guy are probably my favorite homebrewed GBA titles, along with Bunny's X-Mas due to the crazy music.
I misunderstood your point about D-Pads and I now agree with you, but I still think the Saturn had the best one (the apple fell far from the tree with the Dreamcast one). And I don't really think Sony's evil, though they can be huge dicks. Their biggest sin that I irrationally took personally was the blocking of Metal Slug 3, which was one of the three reasons I got a PS2 in the first place. Just wait awhile and after the brand gets established, Sony will once again commit genocide against technically unadvanced 2D games on its platform.
There is a risk of titles being rushed, but that assumes that Nintendo would be spending the time from when they came out in Japan until they're finished localizing them to add a few additional features. As a gamer, I'd take enhanced games versus rushed games anyday, but I'm surprised that Nintendo doesn't want to get a lot more games on the shelves in order to make it look like the DS is a worthy contender to the PSP. At Gamespot, the editors wrote this column where they all said that Sony must've raised the price for the US realize of the PSP because they decided the DS was not a contender, citing a lack of follow-through on Nintendo's part.
#37252 - rusty - Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:44 pm
I have to say that although I love my DS to bits...where the hell are all of the games for it???? I can see how Sony might trounce all over Nintendon with the European and US release of the PSP with the sheer number of titles available at launch.
Which is good, as I've been waiting three months to play something other than Ridge Racers on my PSP. It's quite a funky mp3 player though....
#37260 - quonic - Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:30 pm
After playing Mario DS for a while. My thumbs start to hurt. I think it is do to the placement of the X,Y,A and B buttons. They seem to be placed to far to the right leaving my thumb to become misplaced while in use. I don't know if it is due to my hands being larger or what not. I only wish Nintendo had either placed the buttons closer to the touch screen or made the buttons larger, as in the GBA/GBA SP.
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#37383 - Abscissa - Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:49 am
| quonic wrote: |
| After playing Mario DS for a while. My thumbs start to hurt. I think it is do to the placement of the X,Y,A and B buttons. They seem to be placed to far to the right leaving my thumb to become misplaced while in use. I don't know if it is due to my hands being larger or what not. I only wish Nintendo had either placed the buttons closer to the touch screen or made the buttons larger, as in the GBA/GBA SP. |
Yea, Nintendo controllers do tend to favor smaller hands :(
#37389 - Pat - Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:39 am
No more bad town!