#55921 - Filb - Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:49 pm
Are E3 demos ever going to work?
#55941 - Lynx - Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:49 pm
Or better yet.. why don't they work?
#55949 - MaHe - Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:51 pm
Because... Just because. :D
#55951 - Maverick - Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:57 pm
I thought that nds patcher tool could turn them into .ds.gba files, wouldnt that make them usable to you?
#55961 - chishm - Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:34 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Or better yet.. why don't they work? |
I don't know. It could be that I am not setting registers right, or maybe I am overwritting a critical part of memory (see this post). If I do get it to work, I am not sure that I would want to, since that is one step closer to piracy (once commercial "demos" load it would not be too hard to patch ROMZ to load from CF).
I would like to get SnesDS to work properly though.
#55962 - El Hobito - Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:45 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| Lynx wrote: | | Or better yet.. why don't they work? |
I don't know. It could be that I am not setting registers right, or maybe I am overwritting a critical part of memory (see this post). If I do get it to work, I am not sure that I would want to, since that is one step closer to piracy (once commercial "demos" load it would not be too hard to patch ROMZ to load from CF).
I would like to get SnesDS to work properly though. |
i highly doubt piracy would ever happen for the gbamp thank god the nes emus for the gba try to read directly but its v slow. even if it is made to work it would never be playable.
#55980 - tepples - Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:07 am
| El Hobito wrote: |
| i highly doubt piracy would ever happen for the gbamp thank god the nes emus for the gba try to read directly but its v slow. even if it is made to work it would never be playable. |
It'll happen, given that one of the pirate cards is already able to play 512 Mbit commercial games by translating DS card accesses into accesses to a file on a CF card. This is especially easy because both are block devices, though there is a bit of jerkiness during FMV playback. The difference with the NES emulators is that the NES carts aren't a block device, and using a block device to emulate a directly addressed device has always been slow.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#55983 - Lynx - Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:44 am
| chishm wrote: |
I don't know. It could be that I am not setting registers right, or maybe I am overwritting a critical part of memory (see this post). If I do get it to work, I am not sure that I would want to, since that is one step closer to piracy (once commercial "demos" load it would not be too hard to patch ROMZ to load from CF).
I would like to get SnesDS to work properly though. |
Well.. That sucks.. I hate pirates.. but would like to play the demos.. :( Oh well, I'd agree with not trying to make them work in this case..
#55985 - Sebbo - Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:47 am
how about another multibooter that only loads the demos and checks to make sure they're under 4MB? keep the source closed (or only available to a select few) and you have a legit app that will open up the demos without aiding piracy
_________________
Here's some ideas I have for when I know enough to act on them, or for others to have a look at when they're bored: www.wayne.sebbens.com/ds_ideas.htm
#55986 - tepples - Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:53 am
Relying on security through obscurity by keeping the source code a secret won't be very effective, as pirates will just hack a proprietary loader the way they hacked the machine code of DS programs.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#55988 - chishm - Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:29 am
If I'm right about it being the first 16KiB of DS EXWRAM being overwritten that is preventing the demos loading, then I could probably release my source now and I think no one would be able to make it work, except maybe DarkFader. You need detailed knowledge of how the GBAMP works, and how my hack works, in order to do this.
Here are a few hints (and reasons):
1) Only the first 512B of flash are accessible on the GBAMP before it is unlocked
2) My loader is not in those first 512B, and therefore must be loaded by the GBAMP firmware
3) The GBAMP firmware loads it to 0x02000000, using a mov instruction to obtain that value
4) The bootstrap code must execute from pretty much the same halfword addresses as it does now, as this is what unlocks the cart
5) Changing the destination address would involve changing the mov to an ldr, or else the original firmware won't load (for those who still use it). I guess this is one thing a pirate won't care about
6) All 512B are used for something, I had enough trouble changing the jump to address (I had pretty much the same problem, but found one duplicate piece of data in the pool)
7) Without any place to put that ldr value, you ain't loading anything to any address that isn't a shifted byte value
Oh crap. I just realised I can change the mov r0, #0x2000000 to a mov r0, #0x2100000 and it will still work, both in NDS mode (where it no longer overwrites that RAM) and GBA mode (where it wraps back to 0x2000000). The question is, should I?
#55994 - chishm - Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:55 am
I just tried it and it didn't fix the demos! Yay? This is good for homebrew, bad for piracy.
#55998 - JaJa - Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:28 am
But now that you've changed it so that section of RAM isn't overwritten that is one less obstacle for any prospective pirates out there.
#56031 - tuLL - Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:30 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| chishm wrote: |
I don't know. It could be that I am not setting registers right, or maybe I am overwritting a critical part of memory (see this post). If I do get it to work, I am not sure that I would want to, since that is one step closer to piracy (once commercial "demos" load it would not be too hard to patch ROMZ to load from CF).
I would like to get SnesDS to work properly though. |
Well.. That sucks.. I hate pirates.. but would like to play the demos.. :( Oh well, I'd agree with not trying to make them work in this case.. |
I think that not making things is not the right way for things to go. Being a pirate or not is always a question of choice in the end. Not doing something like this would be like censorship. People have the possibility to choose between "wrong" and "right" and that possibility should never be taken from them.
I have a thing roaming my mind, which is this. Imagine a guy or girl has no money to buy games, and was offered a DS with piracy capabilities. Why shouldn't he/she pirate the games, if she would never be capable of buying them anyway? Why should money give him/her more rights?
Where I live, at Portugal the games available are shameful. I have like 3 or 4 games in the market, and there probably won't be much more available.
So I tend to buy them on ebay. I have already spent more in games that my DS has cost me, and I must say that the last 3 games weren't very good:\ If I had bought them at the store I would have returned them, but I can't, so I'm stuck with them. If I am able to play pirate games, I'll then know which games are good. The new NDS patcher has already put me wanting to buy Advance Wars really bad.
I think piracy can be good, its just a thing of what you use it for.
#56048 - Lynx - Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:01 pm
Personally, I think that is the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time..
But, keep this in mind when refering to "censorship".
Chishm has the right to decide if he is willing to produce work that promotes piracy. And if he chooses not to, that is his right! Now, if you take his work, hack it yourself and make it work for pirating, that is on you. Chishm can go to sleep an night knowing that his work has not helped promote illegal activities!
#56055 - El Hobito - Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:24 pm
lynx you say that though but snesds and nesds are illegal so homebrewers are pirates too. playing commercial roms will never be practical on the gbamp regardless, cf reading is too slow. Those people who want to pirate will anyway thats what the supercard was made for, it also the reason why m3 has it too in order to compete. Most of the people like you, chism and myself etc maybe against piracy but its too late. There are people on this forum who actually distribute these roms.
#56061 - Lynx - Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:46 pm
I'm not going to deny that piracy on the NDS exists.. I'm also not going to deny that there are homebrew developers that promote piracy. But, to tell some one that they should do this or that, because piracy is already available on the NDS.. and that it's not "their choice" what everyone else does with their "product" is a load of crap!
I agree emulators allow people to take pirated ROMs and run them on other hardware, but the emulator itself, NOR THE DEVELOPER of the emulator are pirating. Now, this may be a stupid statement (and I don't know if I believe it myself), but I like to think the emulator developers aren't doing it for piracy. They are doing it to understand the innar workings of the hardware they are emulating.
I agree that the SuperCard was designed with piracy in mind.. I also agree that (sadly) piracy helps the homebrew community. But, if the homebrew community takes the "evil pirating" SuperCard and makes it work with the DS for homebrew, to give developers an additional 32MB of RAM and direct access to the CF card, that's GREAT! The SuperCard becomes an awesome Homebrew tool.
Edit: Spelling mistakes
Last edited by Lynx on Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
#56062 - LunarCrisis - Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:48 pm
| El Hobito wrote: |
| lynx you say that though but snesds and nesds are illegal |
Whatever the laws are about roms in your country, emulators themselves are not illegal.
| El Hobito wrote: |
| so homebrewers are pirates too. |
And here you are assuming that every homebrewer downloads illegal snes and nes roms. Ever hear of http://www.pdroms.de/ ? =/
Please, please at least think before you post. >.<
_________________
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, why the heck do you care?
#56075 - El Hobito - Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:59 pm
you know full well what i mean, i doubt there is anyone on this forum who hasnt played any comercial games on an emu. In any case running homebrew itself is illegal so dont even think about taking any kind of moral high ground.
#56079 - tepples - Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:07 pm
| LunarCrisis wrote: |
| And here you are assuming that every homebrewer downloads illegal snes and nes roms. Ever hear of http://www.pdroms.de/ ? =/ |
I'd guess that some people believe that if the author of a homebrew ROM for, say, the NES wanted it to be playable on a Nintendo DS, then the author would port it to the DS.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#56084 - Lynx - Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:55 pm
| El Hobito wrote: |
| In any case running homebrew itself is illegal so dont even think about taking any kind of moral high ground. |
Wow.. Crack must be cheap these days, as everyone seams to be smoking it! I don't know what 3rd world anti homebrew country you live it, but it is not illegal to code your own games/apps in the U.S. and that's all I care about.
Edit: Tepples, I don't agree with that theory.. if someone coded a game for the NES (given they did it when the NES was popular) why in the hell would they want to revisit something they did.. what.. 10 years ago?
#56087 - tuLL - Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:20 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Personally, I think that is the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time.. |
Worst than shitting is consciously stepping on it.
| Lynx wrote: |
But, keep this in mind when refering to "censorship".
Chishm has the right to decide if he is willing to produce work that promotes piracy. And if he chooses not to, that is his right! Now, if you take his work, hack it yourself and make it work for pirating, that is on you. Chishm can go to sleep an night knowing that his work has not helped promote illegal activities! |
That is exactly what I said. I just added that he should not worry about that, and that not doing it to prevent "bad" from happening is never the right choice.
#56107 - chishm - Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:19 am
| tuLL wrote: |
| I think that not making things is not the right way for things to go. Being a pirate or not is always a question of choice in the end. Not doing something like this would be like censorship. People have the possibility to choose between "wrong" and "right" and that possibility should never be taken from them. |
I liken myself to a weapons manufacturer. If I choose to make it, my product can cause harm to others (through lost profits, ignoring anticapitalist sentimentalities) and allow people to break the law (piracy is illegal). In fact, that would be the entire point of the product (let's face it, guns are designed to kill people and "backups" are for piracy).
Simply creating it so others have the ability to choose is not enough motivation for me. It will take hours of effort to make it work, and I don't want to waste those hours, since the end product can't do anything legitimately legal (except proper backups).
When I release the source code, people can improve it in any way that want. I just wonder, do you think releasing it under GPL will mean the pirates contribute back to the original source tree? I don't.
It's just a sad fact of life that piracy and homebrew are closely intertwined. Without homebrewer's there wouldn't be the ability to run unofficial code on any console. This unfortunately includes unofficial "backups". However, without piracy there would not be enough demand for flashcarts to make them profitable to manufacture, and homebrew would not have such a wide audience.
Oh well, that's enough ranting from me. Can a mod please split the piracy discussion to Off Topic, its not directly related to the firmware hack.
#56140 - Lynx - Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:58 pm
Amen.
#56150 - tepples - Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:40 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| It's just a sad fact of life that piracy and homebrew are closely intertwined. Without homebrewer's there wouldn't be the ability to run unofficial code on any console. |
According to something that was once posted on warioworld.com, people who want to develop on a Nintendo console are supposed to get PC work on the resume, move to Greater Seattle or foreign counterparts, and then spam every game company in Greater Seattle or foreign counterparts with copies of the resume.
| Quote: |
| However, without piracy there would not be enough demand for flashcarts to make them profitable to manufacture, and homebrew would not have such a wide audience. |
The GBA Movie Player was designed for lawful timeshifting of programs recorded from television. It still sells enough at $25 a pop to merit continued production, even without the wink-wink-nudge-nudge of piracy. And don't a lot of Chinese NOR flash cards (f2a/ez-flash/efa) end up in the hands of official developers?
| Quote: |
| Oh well, that's enough ranting from me. Can a mod please split the piracy discussion to Off Topic, its not directly related to the firmware hack. |
Done. You're welcome.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#56199 - chishm - Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:04 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Quote: | | However, without piracy there would not be enough demand for flashcarts to make them profitable to manufacture, and homebrew would not have such a wide audience. |
The GBA Movie Player was designed for lawful timeshifting of programs recorded from television. It still sells enough at $25 a pop to merit continued production, even without the wink-wink-nudge-nudge of piracy. |
The GBAMP is not a real flash cart, as you said. It can run only a few GBA ROMs and, through hacking, many homebrew NDS ROMs. This is actually a good solution, as it is very difficult to get it to run pirate games. The people who have the knowledge to make piracy work have so far been uninterested (speaking from the 3rd person and in general). Unfortunately, you still get the occasional ignorant pirate who doesn't understand the limitations and illegalities of the issue.
| tepples wrote: |
| And don't a lot of Chinese NOR flash cards (f2a/ez-flash/efa) end up in the hands of official developers? |
I don't think the manufacturers of unofficial flash carts had official developers in mind when they made the carts.
| tepples wrote: |
| Quote: | | Oh well, that's enough ranting from me. Can a mod please split the piracy discussion to Off Topic, its not directly related to the firmware hack. |
Done. You're welcome. |
Thanks in hind sight.
#56418 - tuLL - Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:05 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| I liken myself to a weapons manufacturer. If I choose to make it, my product can cause harm to others (through lost profits, ignoring anticapitalist sentimentalities) and allow people to break the law (piracy is illegal). In fact, that would be the entire point of the product (let's face it, guns are designed to kill people and "backups" are for piracy). |
I don't agree with your example. You are not making the gun. Someone else will do the gun with something you did. Just like Nobel and powder.
But of course the choice of doing it or not is always yours, that's not even in question here.
#56434 - tssf - Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:11 pm
Actually, you should probably consider yourself the inventor of the "Trigger"... Whether or not the trigger is used on a gun is the "manufacturer" of the gun's (the rom dumpers) decision.
All this analogy is giving me a headache.
_________________
Mathew Valente [TSSF]
------
Chrono Resurrection Musician
#56437 - tuLL - Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:17 pm
| tssf wrote: |
Actually, you should probably consider yourself the inventor of the "Trigger"... Whether or not the trigger is used on a gun is the "manufacturer" of the gun's (the rom dumpers) decision.
All this analogy is giving me a headache. |
Hehe:P
By the way, great work with reviving the Chrono's OST, brilliant work really. Too bad it got canceled:\
Congratulations nonetheless:)
#56495 - chishm - Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:16 am
Ok, you got me there. But still, without the trigger (startup code), the bullet will never be fired (ROM never launched). My main point was that I don't think I should expend the effort required to make something that will be used almost exclusively for illegal purposes.
#56512 - Lynx - Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:41 am
Well, either way, it's your update and your choice if you want to give it to pirates.. I agree with your decision, and I think anyone with class in the HOMEBREW community would also agree.. so don't waste your time arguing with pirates.
#56521 - MaHe - Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:39 am
AFAIK, you couldn't pirate your games on GBAmp, because of slow CF access times. Demos shouldn't be such a problem, because the load entirely into RAM. And I'd love to see old SNES Marios on DS.
**I'm not a pirate, for your information**
#56523 - chishm - Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:18 am
It is possible to pirate games from the CF card, as the M3 firmware has shown. It has a feature to stream the games straight from disc. I too would like demos to work, since they are free and fun. Unfortunately I am pretty sure that the same things holding back the demos are holding back the commercial ROMs. This is a big deterent for me, since I don't want to see my work used for piracy.
As for SnesDS, this probably won't be fixed until Loopy updates again.
#56537 - tuLL - Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:53 pm
I believe you got me wrong here, I'm not trying to convince you to make the difference. Honestly, I don't even know what it would do:x
I was just speaking about the ethic and moral problems of it.
Thanks for all you have done and for all you choose to do in the future chishm, I really apreciate your work.
#56580 - chishm - Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:03 pm
| tuLL wrote: |
I believe you got me wrong here, I'm not trying to convince you to make the difference. Honestly, I don't even know what it would do:x
I was just speaking about the ethic and moral problems of it.
Thanks for all you have done and for all you choose to do in the future chishm, I really apreciate your work. |
That's fine. I too was just explaining my reasons and wasn't trying to flame anyone.
EDIT:
Well it seems that I accidentally fixed WMB demos when I fixed SnesDS. I purposely left out the CRC stuff in the public release, but that doesn't seem to have stopped them loading. Unfortunately, it is now "in the wild" and I can't really remove all copies of it. I am not going to announce it either, so hopefully people won't notice.