#4435 - Q - Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:56 am
hello everyone, this is my first post here. anyway, i recently bought a gba SP. i like it A LOT. Finally, i can see my games, and it turns out, i do love them. i was so frustrated with the light situation, i couldnt get a worthwhile gameplay experience out of them. this got me to thinking that this may be the last 2d focused game hardware. i mean, this is pretty much a souped up portable SNES, which was the last good 2d focused console. So the next gameboy, i think, will be the GameBoy3d. i hope this never happens, i am an oldschool gamer. dont get me wrong, some 3d games are great, and some games only work good in 3d. so i dont think everything should be 2d. but 2d definetly has its place. i hope it never goes away. but it pretty much already has, except the GBA. I wonder if the gba will have a life as long as the gameboy and gameboy color did. how long was that? like 10 years or so, i cant remember for sure. i wish that all consoles would have hardware 2d support as well as 3d support. i know that technically they probably do, but they arent made specifically for it like the SNES and GBA. why cant nintendo make tile and sprite hardware support built into the gamecube as well as all the 3d support? i wonder if the support was there, if the dev companies would produce 2d and 3d games. just some thoughts i thought i would share. does anyone else think this is the last great 2d game machine and that we should treasure it wile its here? i hope not, i hope the next gameboy is focused on 2d as well, or at least 2d and 3d equally.
#4441 - tepples - Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:50 am
| Q wrote: |
| why cant nintendo make tile and sprite hardware support built into the gamecube as well as all the 3d support? |
It takes very little code to blit a screenful of tiles and sprites as quads from texture memory to the framebuffer, and it'd be cheaper just to put that code on each disc than to make a special tiled video mode in GCN silicon.
| Quote: |
| i wonder if the support was there, if the dev companies would produce 2d and 3d games |
The Dance Dance Revolution series for PS1 and PS2 is 2D running on 3D hardware using a 3D API. StepMania for PC, a nearly identical clone of DDR, uses exactly the same approach (Direct3D 8 quads for backgrounds and sprites). Or you could put essentially 2D gameplay in a 3D world as in Mischief Makers, Kirby 64, Super Smash Bros., and Paper Mario, all for N64.
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#4451 - Q - Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:05 pm
i know how to make a 2d game using D3D, and that you can technically do it with 3d hardware. thats not my point. there arent that many 2d games anymore. i meant, would a lot of games come out that were 2d, and i do think that if the hardware directly supported it, more developers would use it. also, i dont want the next gameboy to be a 3d machine. i think that the WOW of 3d has worn off, and developers should now focus on both 2d and 3d. i think there is a great market for both. look at castlevania, symphony of the night. 3d, i think, would have ruined that game. but 3d is great for others, like mario. i think the move to 3d there has enhanced the game greatly. but i would still like to see a new 2d mario, and im sure we will on the gba. but im just saying that i hope it never goes away, but i really think it's headed that way. plus i dont think the mix of 2d and 3d is really that great. kirby 64 wasnt that good, in my opinion. and paper mario. i think, looked bad. and the gameplay was terrible in comparison to mario rpg for the SNES. maybe that's because square didnt have a hand in it. i dont know. anyway, just because they still can do a 2d game on 3d hardware, they barely ever do. you cant argue that. its a shame that its that way.
#4453 - Daikath - Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:44 pm
The Saturn was basically made for 2d. It was the strongest 2d machine avaible then but you needed to program all the 3d things by hand.. the exact opposite ;).
The Dreamcast also had one nifty option, if you were going to use 2d, the 128 bit chip would work like 2 64 bit chips. So you could both write and read at the same time.
Both both consoles are dead now :\
But 2d in the case of Commandos worked really well and you could tell (I only really played Commandos 2) that they had a lot more time to focus on gameplay whilst still feeling 3d. Im still amazed how deep the gameplay in Commandos is and how well designed those levels are.
Im just done playing HeadHunter on the Dreamcast and Im just stunned by how bad those level designs are. Never are you forced to sneak a little bit and stuff (only in one VR mission, why give VR missions if you can introduce that stuff in a real level?! Much more fun then doing things safe and sound in a fucking VR machine), wich IMO is stupid for a sneak him up cuz then why give the player the possibility to sneak?
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#4455 - tepples - Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:18 pm
| Q wrote: |
| ithere arent that many 2d games anymore. |
The dearth of 2D games on modern consoles can be traced in part to the Sony PlayStation, where Sony initially banned developers from making 2D games, primarily to distinguish the PS1 from the Super NES. Another part is that new commercial 2D games would have to compete economically with piracy of old games.
| Quote: |
| plus i dont think the mix of 2d and 3d is really that great. kirby 64 wasnt that good, in my opinion |
I wasn't trying to praise the overall design of those games but rather to give examples of games that use such graphics. Another one is Wild 9 for Playstation.
| Quote: |
| and paper mario. i think, looked bad |
That was Nintendo trying and failing to copy the look of Parappa the Rapper without copying what really made Parappa cool. Konami got it right with Dance Dance Revolution: putting the same gameplay in a completely different graphical setting.
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#4459 - Q - Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:57 pm
i had no idea that sony actually banned 2d games at first. i think that is crap. but i dont think the piracy of old games is really that big of an issue. i think any well designed and fun game will do good. but does anyone else feel that this is going to be the last 2d machine, and that the next will be the GameBoy3d? i hope not.
#4471 - darkcloud - Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:58 pm
I personally like the look of 2D + 3D in some games, like Super Smash Bros Melee for GC, but I agree it doesn't work with all games. I thought Paper Mario looked ok, and it was still a pretty good game anyway.
I think it would be kind of cool to have a 3D gameboy. But if a 3D gameboy came out, I would hope that it still had hardware support for 2D graphics. I think the gameboy will always stay with its 2D roots for the most part though. A 2D/3D gameboy would be cool with me as long as its powerful in both 2D and 3D.
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#12502 - dagamer34 - Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:35 am
How does 3D- accelerated 2D sound??? 3D in a 2D setting is kind of cool. There are lots of special effects that can be done that way without haveing to put stress on the artist or programmer.
I am thinking explosions, smoke, mostly particle effects would give the 2D classics new life.
Imagine having Sonic become a real blur because of the motion-blur effects a system can do... or HUGE bosses at the end of levels ... or no sprite limits (gasp!!). One thing though is that when you have a 3D system, 2D video becomes much easier because there is no hassle with color values and what not.
And maybe we might be able to alpha-blend 2 sprites together!!!
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#12505 - tepples - Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:57 am
In other words, you want a Williams style video architecture, where rendering of the display list is done through hardware that blits sprites into a frame buffer, as opposed to the raster-compositing architecture seen on the NES, Game Boy, Super NES, and GBA.
"No sprite limits"? Even with the Williams architecture you suggest, you'd still run into fillrate limitations, except you'd be limited in pixels per frame instead of pixels per scanline.
The only big advantage of frame-buffer sprite rendering that I can see is sprite-on-sprite blending.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#12508 - poslundc - Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:28 am
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| How does 3D- accelerated 2D sound??? 3D in a 2D setting is kind of cool. There are lots of special effects that can be done that way without haveing to put stress on the artist or programmer. |
This is how Legend of Mana on the original PlayStation works. It is almost entirely sprite-based, but uses the 3D hardware to generate some absolutely stunning effects.
With the advent of 3D-accellerated handhelds like the tapwave, you may start to see more of this on the portable level. Without the dedicated hardware, however, you're pretty much always better off using traditional sprite rendering techniques.
Dan.