#81812 - wintermute - Tue May 02, 2006 8:02 am
Recently I've noticed an increase in the links to pirate sites in the messages around these forums.
Are the moderators now in favour of piracy?
Who else objects to these links?
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#81820 - SimonB - Tue May 02, 2006 8:50 am
I delete, and always has, links to those kinds of sites as soon as I see them. No one has messaged me with any complaints regarding this (as far as I know) in the 3+ years that Ive run the forum so I guess it hasnt been a big problem.
#81853 - tepples - Tue May 02, 2006 2:43 pm
Because we're not reading the board 24 hours a day. I often link to Pocket Heaven as neutral territory for pirates and homebrewers to come together, and they don't allow ROM links either. If you see a link to a ROM site, PM SimonB or myself and we'll get on it.
Or are you talking about the DS Download Station dump?
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#81879 - wintermute - Tue May 02, 2006 4:55 pm
Personally I'd see the download demo dumps as a grey area which isn't particularly harmful. At least it gets demos out to a wider audience which may actually increase sales.
I don't see PirateHell as a neutral ground at all - the domain is host to release lists and many other activities relating to piracy. While the main focus may be emulators there is a lot of activity which cannot be seen as anything other than copyright infringing. Their Wiki is especially bad.
This thread should have been deleted on sight
http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=9441
why bother replying to someone who has obviously pirated the software he's seeking help with?
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#81882 - tepples - Tue May 02, 2006 4:59 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| I don't see PirateHell as a neutral ground at all - the domain is host to release lists and many other activities relating to piracy. |
And so is geocities.com.
| Quote: |
| While the main focus may be emulators there is a lot of activity which cannot be seen as anything other than copyright infringing. Their Wiki is especially bad. |
Stay away from any article in the categories whose name includes "Piracy", and it's not that bad. Or do you also consider FlashMe a copyright infringement (of Nintendo's official firmware) that should be removed from forum.gbadev.org?
I'm handling that one. It's a long shot, but I'd like to see one of the Loopy/Flubba emulators ported to GCC. If the poster is dedicated enough to pull that off, it's worth not locking the thread.
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#81888 - poslundc - Tue May 02, 2006 5:20 pm
I don't personally view an emulator website as an endorsement of piracy without some obvious advocacy of downloading commercial ROMs illegally. The worst the site linked to in that particular signature has is a compatibility list.
I agree that people should be generally prohibited from discussing issues with commercial software like the ARM SDT in these forums, but tepples is dealing with that as he sees fit.
Dan.
#81890 - wintermute - Tue May 02, 2006 5:29 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: | | I don't see PirateHell as a neutral ground at all - the domain is host to release lists and many other activities relating to piracy. |
And so is geocities.com.
|
But geocities is a general free host which requires no interaction from the domain administrators to set up a website.
| Quote: |
Stay away from any article in the categories whose name includes "Piracy", and it's not that bad.
|
That's quite a chunk of articles.
| Quote: |
I'm handling that one. It's a long shot, but I'd like to see one of the Loopy/Flubba emulators ported to GCC. If the poster is dedicated enough to pull that off, it's worth not locking the thread. |
I must admit I'd be interested in seeing how much the performance differs when compiled with a recent gcc.
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#81902 - Dwedit - Tue May 02, 2006 7:18 pm
I've noticed that Nesdev's message board has looser standards for rom linking than pocketheaven.
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#81913 - zzo38computer - Tue May 02, 2006 8:28 pm
I have no opinion on piracy or any of these things, but I think this poll is biased and should be deleted
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#81944 - Whacko - Tue May 02, 2006 10:18 pm
| Dwedit wrote: |
| I've noticed that Nesdev's message board has looser standards for rom linking than pocketheaven. |
This isn't one of those boards.. this is "GBAdev: where piracy is frowned upon" (nice slogan eh?)
#81954 - Ant6n - Wed May 03, 2006 12:46 am
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| I have no opinion on piracy or any of these things, but I think this poll is biased and should be deleted |
second
#81986 - sgeos - Wed May 03, 2006 6:41 am
I don't believe that anything should be deleted. Instead of deleting things, they should be locked. Blatantly offensive should be replaced with a description of what was removed.
When people post to a forum, they should do so with the expectation of their posts being viewable for years to come. Post responsibly.
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#82011 - wintermute - Wed May 03, 2006 12:50 pm
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| I have no opinion on piracy or any of these things, but I think this poll is biased and should be deleted |
This from a person associated with a rom dumper.
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#82056 - HtheB - Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 pm
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| I have no opinion on piracy or any of these things, but I think this poll is biased and should be deleted |
agree with that
#82059 - Lynx - Wed May 03, 2006 7:13 pm
Heh.. Some funny reading going on here.. You can easily identify the pirates and the non-pirates. I think it's safe to say everyone knows my point on the subject (hell, I had a whole topic about why I shouldn't hate bastard pirates) :)
Anyway, I totally don't agree with just locking posts. I mean, that lets the person that is breaking the rules get away with what they want. So you can't comment. big deal. Their link to warez is still there.. I wouldn't want to help provide that kind if information, or direct people to that kind of information.
So, I think the real question here is.. Is this a homebrew only dev site or not? It is becoming questionable. If it's intenionally questionable, then change the main site to be like this:
Pirate Forums, click here (redirect to pocketheaven)
Homebrew Forums, click here (go to these forums)..
Wow.. that was easy enough. Now the true homebrewers can still have a clean forum and the pirates that are playing homebrewers can have their forum without having to post questions pirate related here.
#82064 - DekuTree64 - Wed May 03, 2006 7:30 pm
The poll is kind of biased... I mean, there's not even a "moderators are doing a good job" option. I am getting kind of annoyed by the number of times tepples has had to link people to pocket heaven, but I'm not a fan of over-policing either. I think locking and erasing any links and information is fine. Maybe add a notice on the main page too, in hopes that a few less people will come asking in the first place.
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#82099 - zazery - Thu May 04, 2006 12:30 am
| DekuTree64 wrote: |
| Maybe add a notice on the main page too, in hopes that a few less people will come asking in the first place. |
Why not put the notice in the registration process in big red font? That way regular members won't be bothered. If the piracy posts don't decrease you could resort to putting a message at the top of the forum only when a person is not logged in, like the ads.
#82113 - DakeDesu - Thu May 04, 2006 1:52 am
| Lynx wrote: |
| Anyway, I totally don't agree with just locking posts. I mean, that lets the person that is breaking the rules get away with what they want. So you can't comment. big deal. Their link to warez is still there.. |
Evidentally you didn't catch all the posts before replying.
It has been said already that the locked posts would be editted. Most other forums I go to, also will edit out the offending stuff. This leaves the thread up for use with authority figures, and for future posts to reference.
However, I agree, the poll is biased, and I suggest we protest by choosing the "I am a pirate I want to be banned" option as a form of ridiculing the poll
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#82161 - HtheB - Thu May 04, 2006 10:06 am
4 people already choose the second option :D
#82170 - Xtreme - Thu May 04, 2006 11:20 am
Google is one hell of a warez source.
EDIT: It's 16 good ppl against 4 evil ppl. :D Doh, that wasn't my opinnion.
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#82209 - Lynx - Thu May 04, 2006 4:17 pm
| DakeDesu wrote: |
This leaves the thread up for use with authority figures, and for future posts to reference.
|
Are you serious? No.. really.. Your serious?
It's bad enough we have NON-warezers posting duplicate messages cause they can't find the search button.. what makes you think the warezers are going to use it?
#82215 - tepples - Thu May 04, 2006 4:24 pm
| DakeDesu wrote: |
| However, I agree, the poll is biased |
I agree too, so now you can vote here to express your opinion of how staff is doing.
Even if links to ROM sites weren't removed by staff within 12 hours, search engines still wouldn't see the links, as the entire forum.gbadev.org domain is off limits to search engines.
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#82237 - FluBBa - Thu May 04, 2006 6:40 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| Personally I'd see the download demo dumps as a grey area which isn't particularly harmful. |
So where exactly is the line drawn? Is it where you find it moraly acceptable or is it where the law says you can not do it? The truth is that you will find more links to copyrighted material on forum.gbadev.org then on boards.pocketheaven.com
On pocketheaven, a person asking for roms/warez or posting such link gets a warning if he's lucky or he gets banned directly. I personaly don't care what you do with the "pirates" here on gbadev I just find it amusing that you make such a big fuss about it and yet have such double standards.
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#82238 - tepples - Thu May 04, 2006 6:42 pm
Please report the offending posts to me and I'll see what I can do.
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#82239 - DakeDesu - Thu May 04, 2006 6:42 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| DakeDesu wrote: | This leaves the thread up for use with authority figures, and for future posts to reference.
|
Are you serious? No.. really.. Your serious?
It's bad enough we have NON-warezers posting duplicate messages cause they can't find the search button.. what makes you think the warezers are going to use it? |
Huh?
Oh wait... what I mean for future reference is to use in the snide fashion of "use the search function". In which case they shall see a large precendent on the matter. Where as deleting them will make the user think he is being original
Also by your logic, it should be fine to leave them up. As if they aren't going to search for it, there is no harm in leaving it up.
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#82255 - wintermute - Thu May 04, 2006 8:40 pm
| FluBBa wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: | | Personally I'd see the download demo dumps as a grey area which isn't particularly harmful. |
So where exactly is the line drawn? Is it where you find it moraly acceptable or is it where the law says you can not do it?
|
Sometimes the law is an ass.
Morality and legality are two different concepts. What is legal may still be immoral. What is moral may be illegal.
What I have a problem with here is not that piracy related questions are being asked here but that those questions are being answered or directed towards resources which will enable copyright infringement. It's setting a bad example.
I draw the line where the ability to earn a living is being hampered or money is being made from illegally distributing the works of others.
The internet should have been an ideal medium to allow artists ( I include programmers and musicians here as well as the more common interpretation) to earn a living without having to forfeit large portions of the potential profit to parasites who add little or no value to the product. What seems to be happening instead is that more ways are being provided to avoid paying anything at all.
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#82277 - tepples - Thu May 04, 2006 10:31 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| Sometimes the law is an ass. |
So don't vote ass in November if you're an American grown-up ;-) [1]
| Quote: |
| What I have a problem with here is not that piracy related questions are being asked here but that those questions are being answered or directed towards resources which will enable copyright infringement. It's setting a bad example. |
We cannot keep the pirates from talking about piracy on the Internet. We can keep the pirates from talking about piracy on this board. If we tell them to go stand in the corner with the other pirates, then they tend to stop bugging us more quickly. What would you suggest that I say when locking a topic other than "Please take it to Pocket Heaven"?
| Quote: |
| I draw the line where the ability to earn a living is being hampered or money is being made from illegally distributing the works of others. |
Nintendo employees' "ability to earn a living" by selling more allegedly overpriced Nintendo DS flash cards to official developers "is being hampered or money is being made" by the makers of SuperCard, M3, and G6 products "from [allegedly] illegally distributing" FlashMe, a derivative of "the work[] of" Nintendo.
| Quote: |
| The internet should have been an ideal medium to allow artists ( I include programmers and musicians here as well as the more common interpretation) to earn a living without having to forfeit large portions of the potential profit to parasites who add little or no value to the product. |
Nintendo or Sony would respond that if homebrewers want to develop for a handheld, they should do so for an open platform such as Palm or GP2X[2] and then use their Palm or GP2X based program as a "demo reel" when applying to 50 different licensed developers in Greater Seattle (or foreign counterparts).
[size=9][1](For that matter, don't vote elephant either. Vote Statute of Liberty.)
[2]Windows Mobile doesn't count much, as it's deployed more and more on smartphones, which the phone company almost invariably proceeds to lock.
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#82285 - wintermute - Thu May 04, 2006 11:35 pm
| tepples wrote: |
We cannot keep the pirates from talking about piracy on the Internet. We can keep the pirates from talking about piracy on this board. If we tell them to go stand in the corner with the other pirates, then they tend to stop bugging us more quickly. What would you suggest that I say when locking a topic other than "Please take it to Pocket Heaven"?
|
Nothing, just lock, delete as appropriate and walk away. Ban if necessary.
| Quote: |
Nintendo employees' "ability to earn a living" by selling more allegedly overpriced Nintendo DS flash cards to official developers "is being hampered or money is being made" by the makers of SuperCard, M3, and G6 products "from [allegedly] illegally distributing" FlashMe, a derivative of "the work[] of" Nintendo.
|
The ability of any artist to gain income from his own copyrighted work.
Making money by selling the intellectual property of others without recompense to the original author. I'd include revenue from advertising on a site which hosts illegal content.
| Quote: |
Nintendo or Sony would respond that if homebrewers want to develop for a handheld, they should do so for an open platform such as Palm or GP2X[2] and then use their Palm or GP2X based program as a "demo reel" when applying to 50 different licensed developers in Greater Seattle (or foreign counterparts).
|
Hard to know how to respond to this really.
Personally I'd rather see a way for small independent developers to succeed in earning a living without having to sell themselves into slavery. Piracy is one of the things that makes this so difficult - why would people pay for anything if they can obtain it for free?
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#82286 - tepples - Thu May 04, 2006 11:50 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| tepples wrote: | Nintendo employees' "ability to earn a living" by selling more allegedly overpriced Nintendo DS flash cards to official developers "is being hampered or money is being made" by the makers of SuperCard, M3, and G6 products "from [allegedly] illegally distributing" FlashMe, a derivative of "the work[] of" Nintendo.
|
The ability of any artist to gain income from his own copyrighted work. |
The ability of any firmware publisher to gain income from its own copyrighted work. This income can come in the form of monopoly pricing for license agreements, monopoly pricing for development kits, and monopoly pricing for game manufacturing.
If discussion of all piracy is forbidden on forum.gbadev.org, then I have no choice but to delete threads about FlashMe. I have asked SimonB for clarifications on the new rules.
| Quote: |
| Making money by selling the intellectual property of others without recompense to the original author. I'd include revenue from advertising on a site which hosts illegal content. |
What about revenue from the donation box on the official FlashMe page?
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#82291 - chishm - Fri May 05, 2006 12:13 am
| tepples wrote: |
| If discussion of all piracy is forbidden on forum.gbadev.org, then I have no choice but to delete threads about FlashMe. |
It could be argued that we obtained a license to a copy of the DS firmware when we bought our DS. Since FlashMe destroys the original copy, we still have only 1 copy in use at any particular time. The FlashMe.nds file stored on your PC is simply a backup.
About homebrewers making money from the DS:
Since all DSs have a unique MAC address which is readable from homebrew software, authors can sell licenses to use a copy of their software on one particular DS.
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#82296 - wintermute - Fri May 05, 2006 1:01 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Quote: | | Making money by selling the intellectual property of others without recompense to the original author. I'd include revenue from advertising on a site which hosts illegal content. |
What about revenue from the donation box on the official FlashMe page? |
It could be argued that FlashMe constitutes fair use. It's similar to removing the region protection from a DVD player. In any case value has been added by providing features people want - the removal of the health screen and the ability to run unsigned code, necessary for homebrew. Users have already purchased the original - FlashMe is useless without a DS.
| chishm wrote: |
About homebrewers making money from the DS:
Since all DSs have a unique MAC address which is readable from homebrew software, authors can sell licenses to use a copy of their software on one particular DS.
|
Being honest I'm not a huge fan of DRM but it's an interesting idea.
The DS has a lot of potential for internet delivered content and your FAT library makes it possible for it to be delivered and stored on the DS. It's a great shame that Nintendo would probably issue a C&D fairly quickly.
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#82309 - tepples - Fri May 05, 2006 3:04 am
| wintermute wrote: |
| It could be argued that FlashMe constitutes fair use. |
Is unrestricted distribution of FlashMe more of a fair use than making "backups" of your games, using them to test an emulator, and not distributing them?
| Quote: |
| It's similar to removing the region protection from a DVD player. |
Which itself is a crime in many jurisdictions including (under some readings of Universal v. Reimerdes the United States.
| Quote: |
| Users have already purchased the original - FlashMe is useless without a DS. |
Unfortunately, that's likely not enough. The backup copy exemption of 17 USC 117 is not a catch-all second copy exemption; the user has to make the backup himself or herself. I read UMG v. MP3.com to imply that if you're modifying the original, you have to distribute the changes only as a patch, such as an IPS or XOR that turns each of v1, v2, v3, v4, v5, and v6 firmware into FlashMe firmware. Another issue is that FlashMe could in theory be used as the firmware for a DS emulator.
| chishm wrote: |
About homebrewers making money from the DS:
Since all DSs have a unique MAC address which is readable from homebrew software, authors can sell licenses to use a copy of their software on one particular DS. |
And the same firmware replacement tools used to install FlashMe can be hacked to change your DS's MAC.
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#82360 - Lynx - Fri May 05, 2006 3:39 pm
Good thing this is in the OffTopic area.. cause now it's really off topic.. ;)
Bottom line. The site has rules, and the should be enforced. So, is the real topic the rules? Or, the enforcement of the rules?
#82371 - tepples - Fri May 05, 2006 8:03 pm
As I saw it, a perceived underenforcement was the problem. But yesterday, SimonB tightened up the rules themselves, and I'm still trying to get some clarifications out of him through PM: - what makes a site "related to piracy" given that Pocket Heaven also has a no-links-to-warez policy
- what to do with links to Google that include the affiliate link inserted by the Firefox Start page and Firefox search box that benefits Mozilla Foundation
- why the duplication of effort from each individual user looking at each individual retailer is worth it
- why Lik Sang's in-depth reviews were made off-limits
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#82564 - chishm - Sun May 07, 2006 8:54 am
| tepples wrote: |
| chishm wrote: | About homebrewers making money from the DS:
Since all DSs have a unique MAC address which is readable from homebrew software, authors can sell licenses to use a copy of their software on one particular DS. |
And the same firmware replacement tools used to install FlashMe can be hacked to change your DS's MAC. |
Yes, but a MAC address is used for more than just DRM. It can cause problems trying to use the same MAC address on a local network.
If users do start pirating the MAC key, it is a simple matter of black listing that MAC for future keys. Changing the MAC requires the user to short SL1, and flash the first page of the firmware. So if a user tries to use 2 different pirated softwares, with 2 different MAC based keys (since the first is black listed), they will need to repeatedly risk bricking their DS. Then there is the less ethical option of sending out trojans to "clense" DSs and game media (CF cards, etc.) if they are found to contain pirated copies. However, I don't believe that authors should stoop to this level.
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#82625 - sgeos - Mon May 08, 2006 12:53 am
| FluBBa wrote: |
So where exactly is the line drawn? Is it where you find it moraly acceptable or is it where the law says you can not do it?
...
I just find it amusing that you make such a big fuss about it and yet have such double standards. |
Somebody made a similar comment on the Starmen Forum.
I'm going to argue that the ultimate line is not getting the site shut down. The only way to know where that line is is by stepping over it, so admins tend to err on the side of caution. (If your server is in some remote location, being shut down could be very difficult.) Individuals may have other lines. Unless those individuals happen to be mods or admins their personal lines tend to have relative little impact.
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