#88012 - keldon - Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:56 pm
Since my recent upgrade I have decided to pick up some old games I never really played due to having inadequate hardware and lack of enthusiam. Unfortunately I have run into some problems: I can't find my serial for red alert 2 and colin mcrae 2 is damaged a little, causing heavy pauses during the menu system.
Now the loss of my red alert serial never bothered me since there were thousands of serials available online and it was mostly my dad playing it. But there was never any warning that something like their serial protection on online play would come into place at the time, and is quite annoying seeing as I don't have the option for online play (whether or not I was going to play it).
My Colin mcrae2 disk is damaged, and I'm sure it has copy protection on it (although I haven't tried), meaning that I never had any option to keep a safe copy of the game. Now I am unable to properly use a game I have paid for due to copy protection which has been easily bypassed (there are websites giving working orders for most cd copy protections, including red alert etc.). What is most annoying is the effect it is having on us legit users, and the effect it is NOT having on piracy.
Serials are OK if they *really* eliminate piracy; but they are annoying, especially when not kept on the CD and you have to keep some big thick and ugly manual or box (for older games/software) and they don't stop piracy in any way.
- SAS (Society against serials)
- SOS (Save our slothing butts)
#88019 - Joe_Sextus - Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:49 am
I'd have to say its bad, from a legitimate user point of view. I prefer to play my purchased games off cd images rather than the actual disks (keeps the disks from getting messed up, and I don't have to hunt for the disk when I want to play the game). The copy protection on some games makes it a pain in the ass to make images of CDs. Most microsoft games are this way. Disc 1 of Age of Mythology takes 4+ hours to copy whereas disc 2 takes less than five minutes.
Sometimes I think its easier to download the game even though I bought.
#88064 - JaJa - Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:13 am
It appears that copy protection is only really affecting the paying law abiding consumers.
A recent case being the Sony Rootkit-DRM software, first discovered over at Sysinternals.
Those that download the songs either illegally or legally, (although legally you were bound to get some kind of DRM) didn't get a potenially dangerous rootkit on their system. However consumer pressure forced Sony to remove this (and they offered compensation to people as well as a tool to remove it).
Another being StarForce. It installs a driver that hooks the CD function from windows.
Those that used cracks or downloaded versions could copy it, image it or whatever.
Those that bought and paid for a game were forced to accept that the Starforce driver could shutdown their system whenever it felt like as well as opening an old security hole (ring 3 processes could access ring 0) and decreasing stablity and reliability.
Normally this was triggered by running deamon tools or Alcohol 120.
But sometimes it triggered for no reason, and people lost work because of it.
And if Starforce isn't uninstalled properly it disable your CD drive.
What gives companies the right to do that?
They should be thankful that people are buying their often substandard game.
Some companies have started taking their consumers for granted, assuming that they will buy anything no matter what the price (Sony's arrogant 5 Million sales even without games). I hate to think how much the early adopters will be stung by the DRM included with every PS3.
I shudder to think what the next generation of DRM, backed up by the DMCA, will bring. (DMCA means you can't even open your Blu-Ray player, let alone crack it. Oh yeah did I mention Blu-Ray players lock themselves if you try and play pirate material?). Again, I find this a violation of company/consumer relations. I buy hardware, what gives them the right to remotely disable it?
Links:
Another page on starforce, detailing it's removal and how to detect it
Update from Sysinternals about the Sony rootkit
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#88069 - keldon - Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:35 am
What would be nice is if there was research on this issue. Maybe they will find that the rate of piracy does not affect the rate of sales; or moreso that copy protection does not increase sales.
Or maybe they will uncover that copy protection does increase sales when it actually does work - but I really doubt that would ever be the case.
#88117 - spinal_cord - Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:25 pm
I have never like copy-proteciotn, even in the old days, entering word 4 of line 7 of paragraph 3 on page 12, thet never worked anyway, it often took for or five goes to get the word right. then the later 'fastloaders' on tapes (c64) using sounds that hifi's couldnt cope, fine in theory, but when the tape got old, it never loaded.
As far as im concerned, copy protection only fuels the hobbies of crackers. it does nothing to help legit users and in a lot of cases, harms users opinions of game companies. No matter what protection someone comes up with, it is only 'useful' for a couple of months at the most before its cracked and patches released on the net.
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#88187 - zzo38computer - Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:58 pm
Someone has to invent a new DVD standard that prevents anyone from making copy-protected DVDs, and it will also be impossible to do Macrovision, encryption, region coding, UOPs, and DVD standard documents that you aren't allowed to read. There! That will fix everything!
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#88197 - keldon - Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:46 am
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| Someone has to invent a new DVD standard that prevents anyone from making copy-protected DVDs, and it will also be impossible to do Macrovision, encryption, region coding, UOPs, and DVD standard documents that you aren't allowed to read. There! That will fix everything! |
By default any DVD reader that only reads mpeg without encryption will not allow copy protected DVD's. So I guess it will fix everything.
But sarcasm and jokes aside, copy protection and anti piracy technology has done more bad than good. 90% of all videos over 20 years are damaged and of poor quality; many CD's after a certain time (maybe mid 80's) are cheaply made and damage quite easily. My gran tourismo CD with no visible scratches does not work; yet the copy protection has not stopped piracy in these CD's has not stopped the larger scale piracy it aimed to stop. It forces me to have my playstation modified so that I can play a game I payed for because my original is damaged but my copy is not, or so that I can play my copy and keep the original intact.
Pokemon is probably the most pirated game, yet is more-than more successful than nearly every other game ever made. The gameboy is the most pirated console (I'll cut this sentence short). People have often put the dreamcast's failure down to piracy but its sales outlook was not that far from the sales of its predecessor (I'll cut this post short because it is becoming long). I just mentioned dreamcast as I know it will probably be brought up.
#88224 - tepples - Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:24 am
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| Someone has to invent a new DVD standard that prevents anyone from making copy-protected DVDs, and it will also be |
...completely ignored by the largest movie studios in North America. Did VCD (pure MPEG on CD with a CD-i compatibility folder) or SVCD (pure MPEG-2 on CD) ever become popular stateside?
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#88250 - keldon - Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:57 am
| tepples wrote: |
| zzo38computer wrote: | | Someone has to invent a new DVD standard that prevents anyone from making copy-protected DVDs, and it will also be |
...completely ignored by the largest movie studios in North America. Did VCD (pure MPEG on CD with a CD-i compatibility folder) or SVCD (pure MPEG-2 on CD) ever become popular stateside? |
VCD wasn't too bad either, but I think it was probably more down to support, cost of hardware at the time, and marketting. And I don't think that the codecs were as good as what we have today. I've seen some VCD's on one CD that have great quality; and we now have divx.
#88546 - sgeos - Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:36 am
Companies that make features for themselves instead of their customers will suffer for it. If they also make features for their customers they will, however, profit overall.
-Brendan
#88551 - tepples - Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:11 am
| sgeos wrote: |
| Companies that make features for themselves instead of their customers will suffer for it. |
Digital restrictions management is like advertising-supported media in that consumers are not the customers; they are the product. The "customers" of a DRM vendor are publishers of copyrighted works.
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#88564 - keldon - Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:55 am
These are not the expected results; but I think that this topic begs and raises the following questions:
- if DRM and anti piracy technology does not stop piracy; what will
- how much does piracy affect sales?
- how can you win in this world?
- how much do linux vendors make? (not that I am suggesting anything)
My view on this situation is that in the perfect world the following is true:
- all the people who would only have bought the product if piracy did not exists will buy the product
- all the people who would only have bought the product if piracy did exists will buy the product (basically with piracy being the gateway to introducing them to their need for the product)
- and (obviously) all people who would have bought the product anyway would purchase it
Copy protection - I believe - actually fullfills this quite well. First of all everyone who would have bought the product would have. Some of those who would only buy the product if piracy did not exist will also purchase. And there are many who would not have bought the product if piracy exists - such people would never have considered the product before using it; and piracy is one gateway.
In fact I think better questions are:
- how can one maximize their products sales?
- - can one, and how can one use copy protection in the sales maximization process
The type of product is essential. Functional programs are (possibly) more likely to gain from a user experiencing their program. This may have been how free open source products managed to develop and get widespread support. Users try it at no cost, and realize its power, a bit like shareware.
#88572 - sgeos - Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:16 am
| tepples wrote: |
| The "customers" of a DRM vendor are publishers of copyrighted works. |
In which case DRM vendors have a fantastic deal going if publishers like the feature. If customers refuse to buy DRM products, then the publishers are the ones who suffer. I suppose if they suffer enough, they could make things suck for the DRM vendors, but that will not happen right away.
Put another way, if I sell you juice made with faulty oranges and you get upset, the grocery store isn't out anything. Unless I decide to complain that you got upset.
Copy protection... is good and bad. It's expensive, so you really only want to deter casual pirates. That also makes things suck for non-technical users: the creative moms who want to copy dvds to vhs so the discs don't literally get eaten.
I'm in favor of low or no copy protection. Why make legit users jump through hoops to use your product? The hard core pirates will find a way to rip you off, but most people are not pirates. How much money do you want to put into the grey zone battle?
-Brendan
#88578 - keldon - Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:18 am
I don't even think DRM is effective in any way in stopping large scale piracy. You can always grab frames and record the audio no matter what protection is available. And once you've got that one copy you can then continue to make multiple copies of it after that.
Maybe it is only aimed at casual pirates; stopping boys from making copies for their cousin or a bunch of classmates. Still think it's hopeless; people are quite happy to borrow and lend on that scale.
Pirate DVD's are about as accessible as legit DVD's. In fact where I work you pass 1 or 2 pirate dvd picnic mats before you get to any retail store. And so many shops are selling them too; practically every small phoneshop and barber in my area sells pirate dvd's, mixtapes and copied albums. You can't go into a pub or bar and some resturants without being approached by dvd's.
I think that publishers are just being tricked by DRM vendors.
#88580 - sgeos - Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:36 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| I don't even think DRM is effective in any way in stopping large scale piracy. |
It's not. As the one man said, drm is ineffective not because the people who crack the systems are smart, but because the people who come up with it are stupid. You are handing the encrypted data and the decryption key to someone at the same time. It's not hard for someone who knows how encryption works to uhh... use the key. DRM schemes are cracked in weeks or days or even hours.
So... instead of realizing that that handing out the lock and key at the same time is stupid, they have made it illegal to look at the key. That is, of course not going to slow anything down. The people who are into "cracking" those kinds of things could care less about laws and penalties.
| Quote: |
| Maybe it is only aimed at casual pirates |
It's aimed at uniformed business people who think they can stop piracy. tepples pointed out that DRM is not a feature intended for end users. As any product goes, it doesn't matter if it works, all that matters is that there is a market for it. Either the DRM vendors are in dream land (likely) or they are intentionally burning the content publishers (less likely, but the implications are more fun. =)
Either way it doesn't really matter to end users, legit or pirate. If I were a gambler, I'd put money on blue ray being cracked 1 month or less. Blue ray burners will be out in a couple years unless the product flops, and quite frankly I hope it does.
-Brendan
#129338 - keldon - Mon May 21, 2007 11:21 pm
I just found an article where Time Warner were flamed for not implementing enough DRM. From the article I get the impression that Macrovision fuel negative opinions to those not implementing DRM, it's also like how not having rims on your car excludes you from the bling bling hip hop community <_<
The most obvious protection is including bad sectors on areas that are not played, which has been used for many years. The obvious bypass is to follow the playing states of the DVD where it will not access bad sectors!
The only workable solution is having the hardware support DRM, which is where it looks like we will be going in the near future.
#129373 - RegalSin - Tue May 22, 2007 5:07 am
Pesonally I am thinking about this myself with games I want to bring to this world. Pirates is my and your number one enemy even if the most of us are ..... pirates already.
While I do hate anti-piracy and lock outs in games it good and bad for many reasons.
Good
1. Allows people to create custome anti-lock out and thus create capital for pirates.
2. Prevents people from copying games and selling them as legit products.
3. Allows certain lock outs that enables a balanced market. Meaning that if we have no lock outs people will just order the product ( as all the people in euro
did with there PSP and Lik-Sang. This will cause Euro dealers to lose money and even change there voltage standards.
Bad
1. People who import and has one product will have trouble using a program from another region.
2. Some people would rather just buy more then one hardware product and lose money around the globe.
3. PAL STANDARDS SUCKS BALLZ PERIOD. ???? I mean the screen is smaller and almost every TV has a computerized RGB on it. If your in Euro you know you all get the crap of the rest of the world and forces you to turn to alternative methods.
If I was the guy who made Dragon Ball and it was 2000 I could care less about Pirates.
It is about the little guy personally.
What I want to do is go back to the good days of tape and add-on chips. You remember who it costed $7 for just one song or even $20 for a cassette tape. Then it even got cheaper but still tape was where it was at.
Then somebody in the media industy said lets record the music to CD and then lets have people play music on computers.
REEEEALLLLLL SMMMARTTTT
Then lets not forget the beauty of cassette gaming. Save function in the cart. Random storage, 3d add-on chips, lock out chips made for certain games that forced people to buy the real game, graphics that had diffrent compartments, and even FLASH.
If I ever want to make a game and make it sell we need to create something that can only run on a certain hardware and not just on the basic hardware.
Make our own cassettes and our carts. This is why I love the Sega Saturn only second to the SNES. The Saturn had games which used the second port for graphics and nobody has yet to emulate it perfectly unlessusing really powerfull hardware.
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#129379 - Karatorian - Tue May 22, 2007 5:57 am
The thing about copy protection (or DRM as they've started calling it) is that it is simply not possible. Content authors (or more accurately, publishers) are conserned about unauthorized copying of their work, which is understandable. So they ask what can be done about this.
It's at this point that things get bizare. There exists a group of companies that prey on this fear and exploit a misunderstanding of technology to enrich themselves. They tell these publishers that they can stop copying, all they have to do is buy our product. But the simple truth of the matter is that what they preport to do, cannot be done. However, this has gone on so long that the publishers have started to demand that this nonexistant, impossible, technology be used on thier products.
How this farce has gone on for so long, I'll never understand. Any other industry that claimed to offer a product that does something that cannot be done would face legal and market concequences, but somehow the DRM vendors stay in business. And to add insult to injury, legaslators, rather than outlaw the sale of this snake oil have started passing laws to require it or legaly punish the bypassing of such obfuscation, even when used for legitimate, fair use, perposes. All I can is that the average publisher is an idiot, and their congress critter doubly so.
#129392 - keldon - Tue May 22, 2007 10:04 am
What made me laugh is when they asked a non technical person what they thought. Like yeah, "what do you think about the use of a parametric equalization and median filters in noise filtering"? "Erm, erm, yeah that is really bad for the filming industry" <_<
Publishers need to get smarter, they're forking out a lot for absolutely nothing. In fact Macrovision protection is a paradox that says, "your PC can read this, your PC cannot read this" since:
1: it has to be compatible with existing DVD players
2: disks that are compatible with existing DVD players can be played on a PC
3: all relevant data to watch the film are readable if it is compatible with existing DVD players
4: to copy protect a film is to make it in some way unreadable by copy devices
5: "your PC can read this" (1,2,3)
6: "your PC cannot read this" (4)
#129403 - silent_code - Tue May 22, 2007 2:07 pm
i'd just like to share my experiences with this topic. note, that i won't hesitate to name companies etc. if this is against the forum rules, i'm willing to change the post. just don't delete it. ;^)
my bro moved to england some time ago and he needed a pc for himself. i bought him one and installed all kinds of software he might need. everything was either freeware or bought on cd. no big deal, things worked as expected.
as he was moving together with his girlfriend, she brought her favorite games, so that they could *be* installed properly - they're both rather unexperienced users. ;^)
now guess what? everything NOT by EA worked! even rather old games like 'themepark world' or then new games like 'the sims 2' (everything ran off the ORIGINAL cds! in a freaking PHYSICALLY EXISTENT drive) either refused to install (sometimes randomly) or to start... it was just *so* stupid! the copy protection simply didn't like *something* about the machine. i still don't know what. there wasn't even any *suspicious* software installed.
THANK YOU - EA - FOR TAKING PEOPLE'S MONEY! really.
(and thank you very *f<oups>g* much for never releasing 'thrill kill', although it was 100% done and even advertised. they thought the game would not fit their corporate identity... now look at 'army of two' - they advertise it with 'it has got what we call the "f*ck you button"' [citation: google for it ;^p].)
what *wouldn't* they do for a buck? everything is about sales figues, the customer is just a bug in the system, that will be fixed someday. i guess they will try to make us to pay to not receive games from them automatically - but for each game in advance - and as a (not working or ad bloated) download, that's how to maximise profit (no discs, no prints, no packaging). not that i have anything against digital distribution, but technology always raises two questions: 1) how can we kill/harm others with it, 2) anything else we can do with it that will sell?
i know i exaggerated it a bit too much here and there and i see the reason copy protection exists. but if they want to use it, then please, it should be done right. not like 'mr. and mrs. smith'. a lot of ppl have thrown their *working* dvd drives away because of the rootkit (wasn't it?) it installed. that completely disabled the drive on those machines and unexperienced customers were forced to buy a new drive. BOY!
i better stop now.
#129419 - Dood77 - Tue May 22, 2007 6:30 pm
Wow, this tread grew to 2 pages fast...
I'm pretty much neutral on all the points made here. I'm not all for copy protection, but I definitely don't share the beliefs of 'The Pirate Bay' (All software free... WTF?)
And as for DRM, it is a huge pain. Yet it does keep honest people honest. I just don't see why companies spend so much money on new encryptions and such when they can just use the same technology and change it around a little. It's still illegal to break the copy protection, so it keeps honest people honest.
So in general I'm anti-DRM and pro-copyright. I mean, people need to make money, and they deserve to continue to make money while the software is selling strong, but I think it would be a great thing if copyright laws depended on how well the particular software is selling. 95 years or whatever it is is much too long. There are games published in the 90s that are ESA protected, and the original copyright owner is long gone, and no one has said anything about reviving the franchise, let alone who owns the copyright in the first place. (not talking of Nintendo, who has many ESA protected titles recently because of the Virtual Console on Wii)
And releasing the source (not necessarily the content) is a great thing too, it lets other software companies benefit, and in the case of Id software, it actually helps sales because people port their games to modern systems.
| RegalSin wrote: |
| If I ever want to make a game and make it sell we need to create something that can only run on a certain hardware and not just on the basic hardware. |
EXACTLY! This is what Nintendo attempted to do with the Gamecube disks and it actually prevented direct piracy of the disks for a long time. I actually heard a rumor once that their disks spin and are read backwards :P
The problem now though is that many Consoles double as media players, people wanna watch DVDs and rip CDs to thier consoles. Unless they came with a CD reader and a cartridge slot there's not too easy of a way to do this, and sure enough people would develop a firmware hack or modchip that enables image booting from the CD drive anyway.
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#129461 - RegalSin - Wed May 23, 2007 12:53 am
Personally I like the fact th GCN games are written backwards and spins counter clockwise. That was one of the smartest and simplest ideas I have ever seen.
What is more funnier is the GCN has not been perfectly emulated at all yet the PS2 and X-box has been emulated perfectly.
At the same time as with the Dreamcast there is dummy space on the disc so people who have big 2GIG IMG files really have 286 MB or even 400MB files.
Only some games use the entire 2GIG.
Dreamcast is a programmers dream but was also a pirates dream.
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#129464 - chuckstudios - Wed May 23, 2007 1:10 am
Your turn:
| RegalSin wrote: |
Personally I like the fact th GCN games are written backwards and spins counter clockwise. That was one of the smartest and simplest ideas I have ever seen.
|
My turn:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Storage_media wrote: |
A common misconception about the GameCube optical drive is that it spins the discs in reverse (counter-clockwise) compared to regular DVD-ROM drives. The peculiarity of this rumor is that one need only open the disc tray on an operating GameCube to see that the disc clearly spins clockwise as it slows to a halt. |
Your turn:
| RegalSin wrote: |
| What is more funnier is the GCN has not been perfectly emulated at all yet the PS2 and X-box has been emulated perfectly. |
My turn:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cxbx wrote: |
Cxbx is a Xbox emulator for Microsoft Windows developed by a group of programmers lead by a hacker named Caustik and written in the C# and C++ programming language. Cxbx's goal is to convert a game from an Xbox executable to a native Windows executable.
The only commercial game that Cxbx runs is Turok: Evolution, and without sound or network support. It is also able to run assorted demos. Currently, the project is inactive. The author recommends checking out OpenXDK. |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon_%28emulator%29 wrote: |
| Xeon was an Xbox emulator released for the Microsoft Windows operating system on April 25, 2003. The emulator is currently only capable of running Halo (NTSC distribution) with varied success from total inoperability to an Xbox-comparable success. |
Your turn:
| RegalSin wrote: |
At the same time as with the Dreamcast there is dummy space on the disc so people who have big 2GIG IMG files really have 286 MB or even 400MB files.
Only some games use the entire 2GIG.
Dreamcast is a programmers dream but was also a pirates dream. |
My turn:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GD-ROM wrote: |
| GD-ROM is the proprietary optical disc format used by the Sega Dreamcast. It is similar to the standard CD-ROM except that the pits on the disc are packed more closely together, resulting in a higher storage capacity: around 1.2 gigabytes. |
Not 2GB.
Thanks, I'm done.
#129467 - Lynx - Wed May 23, 2007 1:18 am
Hmm.. So.. is that the single post with the most amount of wrong information ever?
Anyway, I understand why people might think it spins backwards.. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing it's like the PS1 that would spin backwards when it was having problems reading the disc, and I have seen it spinning backwards many times when I opened the tray.
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#129469 - dantheman - Wed May 23, 2007 2:15 am
While the GCN discs don't spin backward, aren't they read from outside-to-inside rather than inside-to-outside (or something like that)? Or is that another rumor that turned out to be false?
Oh, and
| Dood77 wrote: |
| Wow, this tread grew to 2 pages fast... |
It helps that the entire first page was from 2006 ;)
#129478 - tepples - Wed May 23, 2007 5:08 am
GameCube discs have a "funny" file system (not ISO, not UDF), and eh-vee-ting is encrypted based on the "barcode" in the Burst Cutting Area.
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#129511 - silent_code - Wed May 23, 2007 10:49 am
ok guy, here you have it:
the gc drive (made by matsushita) is a constant angular velocity drive reading from disc edge to center.
also, the dreamcast gd-rom (again, like the gc discs, read with cav) is comparable to sony's double density cd (like cd-/dvd-rom used [zoned] constant linear velocity), which also had approx. 1.3 GB capacy.
just look it up in wikipedia, there's all you want to know about it.
btw: i voted neutral. ;^D
#129515 - keldon - Wed May 23, 2007 11:04 am
And serials should be numbers only too <_< Mixing with letters just makes it annoying to key in
#129517 - chishm - Wed May 23, 2007 11:41 am
| keldon wrote: |
| And serials should be numbers only too <_< Mixing with letters just makes it annoying to key in |
But it also increases the information density, so you don't have to type in as many characters for a key of a given bit length.
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#129547 - Dood77 - Wed May 23, 2007 6:13 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| And serials should be numbers only too <_< Mixing with letters just makes it annoying to key in |
Wait... you're telling me all you 1337 coders don't have hexadecimal number pads?? :P
| RegalSin wrote: |
| Personally I like the fact th GCN games are written backwards and spins counter clockwise. That was one of the smartest and simplest ideas I have ever seen. |
Erm... I wrote "I heard a rumor..."
And tepples... In windows the CD Drive always lists CD-ROM/CD-RW CDs as a "CDFS" file system. Is this another crazy Microsoft thing, or is it the same as ISO or something...? Also, since the Gamecube discs are read from the inside out, is it very hard to get normal DVD drives to read them?
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#129572 - tepples - Wed May 23, 2007 9:30 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
| And tepples... In windows the CD Drive always lists CD-ROM/CD-RW CDs as a "CDFS" file system. Is this another crazy Microsoft thing, or is it the same as ISO or something...? |
"CDFS" appears to be Microsoft's name for ISO 9660, possibly with the Joliet extension.
| Quote: |
| Also, since the Gamecube discs are read from the inside out, is it very hard to get normal DVD drives to read them? |
From center to edge is normal for CD and for the first layer of DVD. From edge to center is normal for the second layer of DVD.
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#129592 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 1:42 am
Whoops! Got it backwards... silent_code's post said that GC disks are read from the outside, but since you said about the second layer of DVD doing this, it doesn't sound too hard to get DVD drives to read them.
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129620 - chishm - Thu May 24, 2007 11:23 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| keldon wrote: | | And serials should be numbers only too <_< Mixing with letters just makes it annoying to key in |
Wait... you're telling me all you 1337 coders don't have hexadecimal number pads?? :P |
I've been looking for one of these, know where I can get one?
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#129627 - silent_code - Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
| ... but since you said about the second layer of DVD doing this, it doesn't sound too hard to get DVD drives to read them. |
i guess you'd have to write a driver for a specific drive model to do that. in theory, the gcd is a dvd derivate which behaves simmilar to the 2nd dvd layer, in practice gcds are read by software running on the gc and streaming the discs content via lan to a pc. i don't know much about it - well, at least that's what i read when trying to get into the scene. it's still not sexy enough for me to get started, though. ;^)
#129630 - keldon - Thu May 24, 2007 1:43 pm
#129649 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 5:41 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| Dood77 wrote: | | keldon wrote: | | And serials should be numbers only too <_< Mixing with letters just makes it annoying to key in |
Wait... you're telling me all you 1337 coders don't have hexadecimal number pads?? :P |
I've been looking for one of these, know where I can get one? |
Actually I've never seen one... The idea just popped into my head as something someone would've had to have done... A google search didn't reveal much.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129652 - keldon - Thu May 24, 2007 6:03 pm
i have seen one
#130534 - Dan2552 - Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:56 pm
Newer games by EA do actually have a well working protection (for online play), the serial number and account can only be used together - so if someones key gets stolen, it still cant be used by that pirate without the username and password too and they can't create a new account on that serial.
Only thing is, later Battlefield games have that protection, I (as a legal owner of my serial and account) can only play aslong as I have the DVD in - whereas nothing needs to be read from the DVD. All it prevents is singleplayer piracy - where the game wasn't even designed for singleplayer at all anyway. No potential pirate would buy Battlefield just to play singleplayer.
#130535 - keldon - Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:04 pm
Well I can't use my Red Alert 2 since I can't remember my old username/password, and their network/site/login for that does not work anymore (or at least it wasn't for a long time).
But yes, that's a good protection scheme. Serial is numbers, and actually works therefore it isn't a pointless nuisance.
#130559 - sgeos - Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:49 am
If you don't like the copy protection, don't buy or use their products. There are plently of people who boycott DRM restricted products.
-Brendan
#130563 - keldon - Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:00 am
| sgeos wrote: |
If you don't like the copy protection, don't buy or use their products. There are plently of people who boycott DRM restricted products.
-Brendan |
A boycott in that sense is the extreme that I consider unnecessary. It's that whole "like it or leave it" trail of thought; I don't like something about it and it is a nag but does not mean I must leave it also.
But on that note I can't use my RedAlert2 game and it is really frustrating that I have to pay again to play it. On another note my Blade Runner game got snapped and I've never seen it retail again (although having said that I just found it on ebay) - awesome game.
#130581 - Dan2552 - Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:50 pm
| Quote: |
| But on that note I can't use my RedAlert2 game and it is really frustrating that I have to pay again to play it. On another note my Blade Runner game got snapped and I've never seen it retail again (although having said that I just found it on ebay) - awesome game. |
That is kind of your fault though, it would be exactly the same if you lost a game CD and you hadn't installed it - so therefore you can't play it.
I still remember my old Tiberium Sun account and password :)
#130586 - keldon - Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:16 pm
| Dan2552 wrote: |
| Quote: | | But on that note I can't use my RedAlert2 game and it is really frustrating that I have to pay again to play it. On another note my Blade Runner game got snapped and I've never seen it retail again (although having said that I just found it on ebay) - awesome game. |
That is kind of your fault though, it would be exactly the same if you lost a game CD and you hadn't installed it - so therefore you can't play it. |
Well no because the CD has snapped and you cannot run the game without it so installed or not it's gone. Besides a CD snapping is completely different to wondering where it is, I certainly didn't lose it.
#130614 - tepples - Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:41 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| If you don't like the copy protection, don't buy or use their products. |
In other words, vote with one's dollars. But how does one vote with one's dollars against an entrenched monopoly or cartel? For instance, if a government requires all business owners under its jurisdiction to submit licensing or tax information in a way that requires the use of the Windows operating system (which has happened), then how is one supposed to vote with one's dollars against Windows product activation? And what feature films or set-top video games are available on a format that does not use restrictions management?
_________________
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-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#130634 - sgeos - Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:11 am
| tepples wrote: |
| In other words, vote with one's dollars. |
Economics.
| tepples wrote: |
| But how does one vote with one's dollars against an entrenched monopoly or cartel? |
Very carefully?
| tepples wrote: |
| For instance, if a government requires all business owners under its jurisdiction to submit licensing or tax information in a way that requires the use of the Windows operating system (which has happened), then how is one supposed to vote with one's dollars against Windows product activation? |
Can you get a cheap Windows 95 CD? Used products don't generate profits for the company unless supply is low. Supply of Windows 95 should exceed demand at this point.
-Brendan
#130679 - Lynx - Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:28 pm
Dunno, you have to decide what is important to you. I don't buy gas from Citgo anymore after I found out it was owned by Venezuela. Sure, I might be able to save a few cents here and there.. and they are a lot more convenient (they are EVERYWHERE!) but I choose not to support a government that has negative feelings toward my country.
So, the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is only as good as your cares. If you don't care, live with it. If you do, don't. There are alternatives to pretty much anything. You may not like the alternatives, but you still have that choice.
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NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#130684 - keldon - Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:11 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| So, the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is only as good as your cares. If you don't care, live with it. If you do, don't. There are alternatives to pretty much anything. You may not like the alternatives, but you still have that choice. |
Well that's a much more friendly alternative and it is more of a "real" choice in the sense that there is a viable alternative. In this case there is no viable alternative/competition of even that level.
Even the use of Windows 95 (from Tepple and Brendan's thing) is not viable since I cannot run Propellerheads Reason and the SynthMaster plugin I got from producing a demo for their product. So it's not a choice between meeting a requirement since there is only one product meeting that requirement.
If anything it's my tiff with the common consensus in the industry and seeing where people's opinions stand (hence the vote). Nothing can be resolved, and my software will most likely come with a long alphanumerical serial too that you can also find at www.randomSerialSite.country
#130687 - Dood77 - Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:53 pm
Was that changed by a mod...?
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#130691 - keldon - Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:13 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
Was that changed by a mod...? |
Oh no that was me ^_^
#130718 - Dood77 - Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:50 am
Ok, lol.
_________________
If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#130760 - Lynx - Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:23 pm
| Quote: |
| Even the use of Windows 95 (from Tepple and Brendan's thing) is not viable since I cannot run Propellerheads Reason and the SynthMaster plugin I got from producing a demo for their product. So it's not a choice between meeting a requirement since there is only one product meeting that requirement. |
Wait.. it is a choice. You CHOOSE to run whatever OS you need to use those applications. If you choose an OS that isn't supported, then you are also choosing not to run those applications. So now, your choice in OS also effects your choice in using those apps.
Anyway, to get back on topic, the ONLY method of copy protection I have personally seen that actually works is the use of a hardware dongle. Of course, these aren't high demand applications, and I'm sure either the check could be removed, or the dongle reproduced. But in the envirnments I have seen them used it, they have kept your average user from running the application on every computer in the office.
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NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#130762 - keldon - Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:27 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Wait.. it is a choice. You CHOOSE to run whatever OS you need to use those applications. If you choose an OS that isn't supported, then you are also choosing not to run those applications. So now, your choice in OS also effects your choice in using those apps. |
That is known as a Hobson's choice. And as for dongles, they are easily emulated. Microsoft and Westwood are about the only people who have it right where it actually prevents (or could prevent) piracy.
There are plenty of ways to tackle piracy with particular types of products; for example music applications need only provide hardware devices that perform complex calculations! Of course that's not much of a solution because you've actually just created hardware, which seems to be a dying market and isn't really a "solution".
#130847 - Lynx - Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:31 pm
It's still a choice.. A lot of the time we are faced with those kinds of choices.
Anyway, I think I found a sure fire way to keep your game or app from being pirated.. ;)
Make it so crappy that nobody wants it.. :)
That is how I rated on of my "commercial" apps I used to sell.. When I saw it getting pirated.. I thought.. We made the big leagues.. :)
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NDS Homebrew Roms & Reviews
#130848 - keldon - Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:37 pm
lol
#131186 - keldon - Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:58 am
Oh you've got to be kidding me!!! I bought Rome: Total War today after playing it on Saturday; and because of it's "amazing" safedisc and custom copy protection schemes I can't even get it to launch or read on my system. Really clever, I'm actually having to download a crack to play my licensed game, and I don't even know if my serial is going to work with it because the download is a CD and my game is a DVD!
If not then I will be demanding a full refund, a train ticket reimbursement and a discount on my next purchase for making me travel to buy a game that does not work. Really annoying.
#131203 - sgeos - Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:01 am
You should send them a postcard even if you can get the game to work.
-Brendan
#131208 - keldon - Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:16 am
| sgeos wrote: |
You should send them a postcard even if you can get the game to work.
-Brendan |
lol well if I get my temp games tester job for SEGA I can give it to them in person or ask for a test machine to take home and find the "DVD loading bug" ^_^
#131225 - sgeos - Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:41 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| lol well if I get my temp games tester job for SEGA I can give it to them in person |
I'm not convinced that would be a good idea, but I've done crazier things.
-Brendan
#131226 - keldon - Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:48 pm
Well I wouldn't really consider any of these things, but for a minute I thought I had no chance of playing the game and would have to go back to the shop to return it.
The "work around" works but it's a shame that people have to resort to such measures. This is the second time some anti piracy scheme stopped something working, but at least it was its own application and not my system!
#131239 - tepples - Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:56 pm
Don't be so sure. A dongle can act as a coprocessor, as seen in this pinyin to kanji translator and in several Super NES games that use "special chips" such as DSP1, Cx4, Super FX, SA-1, or SDD1. The Super NES emulator for the DS still doesn't emulate these dongles.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#131245 - keldon - Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:35 pm
Well that's pretty much what I suggested with the "hardware that performs complex calculations". If it does not perform any useful operation then a typical crack could circumvent it. The dongle in Cubase SX and Maya have both been emulated perfectly!
I wasn't aware that so many SNES games had co-processors in their cartridges; but [I think] they are mostly limited by processing power required by the DS and not the actual processing. Stunt Race FX - for example - can be played in a SNES emulator.
#132975 - HyperHacker - Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:54 am
There's another factor to consider there, though. Look at the S-DD1. It went unemulated for ages just because nobody could figure out how the hex it worked.
BTW, keldon has just demonstrated the #1 problem with DRM: hurts customers, not pirates. The DRM prevented him from using an authentic copy on his own machine while he had no trouble obtaining a crack.
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I'm a PSP hacker now, but I still <3 DS.
#132983 - keldon - Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:01 am
Yes, the poor guys were sending me daily emails trying to assist me. They even sent me a control disk to make sure it was my system - bless them. So I contacted my PC supplier and said I want a new DVD drive without that failed Sony protection scheme (that is faulty), so I think I will be getting a lovely new DVD drive that is faster and (hopefully) better than my one.