#107347 - Teun - Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:46 pm
Just found out about this weblog:
Click here for the Gnirfleo blog.
He/she's working on a new webbrowser, with a Flash player integrated!
I can't wait to try this out, because I'm a little dissapointed by the Opera webbrowser..
Plus this is free.. hehe
#107348 - Sausage Boy - Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:48 pm
Too early to scream fake yet. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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#107353 - Legolas - Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:02 pm
| Quote: |
Ok, so what are the possibilities?
Of course, it can do anything the Opera webbrowser can do. This means it can view:
HTML
PHP
CSS
Images
etc.
|
Maybe too early to scream fake, but a web browser doesn't mind about php/asp/whatever... It parses all data as html. I don't know... I'm not sure he knows what is speaking about :)
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#107368 - jester - Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:21 am
atleast its in development
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#107371 - Lick - Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:18 am
So they say.. IIRC none of them actually talk about ds hardware and implementation problems etc.
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#107387 - MaHe - Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:36 am
Okiwi was cancelled, and this will be cancelled too.
There's a golden rule you must know:
Do not release any info on your homebrew application until you actually have coded at least 70% of the first version.
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#107390 - OOPMan - Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:27 am
Flash? God, no, the one thing I wish there was less of the internet. Nothing like a crappy flash website to ruin my day...
As for the browser...yeah, if actually comes out, who knows...
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#107394 - jester - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:33 am
Okiwi was cancelled?? is it cancelled?
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#107397 - Devil_Spawn - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:46 am
| Quote: |
The posting frequency has fallen, so I write this post to say I'm still alive... and the project too. I'm still working on the damned floating boxes. Recently there have been some subjects that have stolen me more time than usual, so I will try to optimize my schedule in order to be able to devote to the project the time is worths.
I'll keep you informed. |
posted 6 days ago on okiwis site
#107398 - jester - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:49 am
he is just saying that he is trying to fit more time into the project he says its still alive though
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#107414 - Darkflame - Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:23 pm
No one person has the time and resources to make a even half decent web-browser.
The task needs to be split up.
And stuff like Flash should be left wayyy off, and handeled in a different app.
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#107442 - pas - Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:08 pm
I think they both will finish their webbrowsers. (But I'm not too sure if the Gnirfleo Webbrowser will really get flash... IF it would get flash support then this would be AWESOME !)
I hope that both Webbrowsers can atleast this if they are finished:
- Browsing the Web with Text and Image Support
- Being able to downoad Datas while surfing the web (maybe even download datas from sites like Megaupload)
- Save Cookies, so we do not have to type our passwords all the time (which *could* bother us ;) )
- Featuring Java Script, so we can fill out formulars.
This is all I could think of for now.
Flash would be cool to, but I think it won't work... BUT if it WOULD work then it would be AWESOME !
What do you think: Which Webbrowser will get finished earlier:
Gnirfleo,
or
Okiwi ?
Greets:
Pas
#107446 - Sausage Boy - Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:19 pm
Is it a trick question? ;)
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#107458 - OOPMan - Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:38 pm
I think both projects will languish in development hell for a couple of months and then get formally cancelled...
Web browsers are not easy to write, embedded ones even less so, in some ways...
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#107460 - ?hr - Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:26 pm
| pas wrote: |
- Browsing the Web with Text and Image Support
- Being able to downoad Datas while surfing the web (maybe even download datas from sites like Megaupload)
- Save Cookies, so we do not have to type our passwords all the time (which *could* bother us ;) )
- Featuring Java Script, so we can fill out formulars. |
opera supports java, but not java applets. megaupload uses flash, so flashsupport is needed if you want to download anything from there :)
#107462 - jester - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:00 pm
i see they will eventually fade away
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#107466 - PharaohsVizier - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:31 pm
Why don't they all join up to make a super browser?
#107469 - jester - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:39 pm
yeah good point
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#107472 - Lick - Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:52 pm
Because working on a team makes the job harder (all the organization that comes along..) and less attractive to take on.
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#107484 - josath - Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:25 am
| ?hr wrote: |
| opera supports java, but not java applets. megaupload uses flash, so flashsupport is needed if you want to download anything from there :) |
Java is NOT the same thing as JavaScript. In fact, they have very little in common besides the name. And as far as I know, Opera DS supports no form of Java at all.
And I am not 100% certain, but I don't think megaupload needs flash at all to download. Some of their ads may be in flash, but I think you can download just with javascript support.
#107489 - lambi1982 - Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:35 am
Just to throw in my 2 cents, I think if the DS was even EVER capable of flash and Java Nintendo and Opera would have added them to the official browser... there was a reason they were not...
That is just what I think. But then again, maybe they just wanted it to be SIMPLE :)
Wishful thinking
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#107490 - tepples - Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:07 am
By "Java" you mean Java SE, but I'll toss out an anecdote: I seem to remember running early (JDK 1.0.x) Java SE applets on my 75 MHz Mac with 16 MB of RAM around 1997. I would imagine that some devices that run Java ME MIDP are even smaller.
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#107502 - OOPMan - Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:01 am
Yah, the Java MIDP applets are pretty lean and mean little packets of code. Opera Mini is a mere 100k in size or so and it's a pretty good browser...
That said, Java MIDP is rather limited compared to full-scale Java and I don't think it's ever been used to create applets for web browsers...
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#107510 - ?hr - Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:54 am
i hope this browser gets tabs :)
#107520 - Darkflame - Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:44 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| Because working on a team makes the job harder (all the organization that comes along..) and less attractive to take on. |
If that was true, then every bit of software would be written by one person.
It isnt.
The extra effort needed to work together is grossly comansated for by the fact you have more people working.
We are never going to get a webbrowser with people working on their own. They will get so far when interested, then it will fade off into development hell.
The best option, of course, is for an extreamly simple webbrowser to be created, that allows other people to extend it.
At the moment, we havnt even got an NDS prog that will load a webpage in text and let you browse the links.
Am I alone in thinking its crazy people are talking of Flash, Java, heck..even images....when we havnt even got that far? Heck, we are talking about a browser with all this, and then saying its harder to make it with more then one person O_o
This isnt running before walking, this is trying to run before you even have legs.
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#107523 - blasty - Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:48 pm
Mentioning PHP as a "feature" makes the whole thing laughable. And makes it seem the people behind it don't have a clue :)
#107527 - OOPMan - Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:21 pm
Nah, Darkfader, I think most of us agree with you...
They're certainly advertising the gates of heaven, that's for sure. Whether they deliver is unsure...
With regards to the team thing, I think it depends on the project at hand.
I remember a group work project that we had to do in CSC3 that was actually more of a test of group managment than of coding. The parameters in that case were:
2 weeks
4 people
Basic Java app interfacing with Moderately complex SQL stuff
It quickly became apparent to me that most of the work would go into organising the group and ensuring that the team worked, because the actual coding, etc required could have been done quicker by a single-person.
The project also illustrated what happens when one person in such a team fails to do their job...
So, yeah, the moral of the story. Adding more people isn't always a good thing but depends a lot on the project at hand...
But I imagine that this is kinda what you were saying anyway...
Certainly for a complex web-browser, though, a team of experienced programmers with good organisation is needed. Single-man efforts are unlikely to produce much. Especially on an embedded platform like the DS that does not cushion for sloppy coding...
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#107529 - MaHe - Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:58 pm
| OOPMan wrote: |
| Nah, Darkfader, I think most of us agree with you... |
It's Darkflame. FLame!
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#107537 - OOPMan - Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:22 pm
Woops. I thought I'd made that mistake as soon as I hit the post button. The I went and browsed another thread and forgot to fix it...
My bad...
Sorry to both Darkflame AND Darkfader :-)
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#107552 - Teun - Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:00 pm
| Darkflame wrote: |
| Lick wrote: | | Because working on a team makes the job harder (all the organization that comes along..) and less attractive to take on. |
If that was true, then every bit of software would be written by one person.
It isnt.
The extra effort needed to work together is grossly comansated for by the fact you have more people working.
We are never going to get a webbrowser with people working on their own. They will get so far when interested, then it will fade off into development hell.
The best option, of course, is for an extreamly simple webbrowser to be created, that allows other people to extend it.
At the moment, we havnt even got an NDS prog that will load a webpage in text and let you browse the links.
Am I alone in thinking its crazy people are talking of Flash, Java, heck..even images....when we havnt even got that far? Heck, we are talking about a browser with all this, and then saying its harder to make it with more then one person O_o
This isnt running before walking, this is trying to run before you even have legs. |
There is more then one man working on this project.
In fact, I know they're working on it with at least 5 people.
#107557 - OOPMan - Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:16 pm
5 experienced programmers, or 5 eager newbies?
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#107600 - kevinc - Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:59 am
Wow, 3 pages for two posts with no details. But wait, it's serious competition :)
I wonder if my PS3 emulator for the DS will get as much attention.
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#107612 - ?hr - Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:57 pm
| kevinc wrote: |
Wow, 3 pages for two posts with no details. But wait, it's serious competition :)
I wonder if my PS3 emulator for the DS will get as much attention. |
ahhahahah!
#107623 - tepples - Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:44 pm
| kevinc wrote: |
| I wonder if my PS3 emulator for the DS will get as much attention. |
Was there an IBM PS/3?
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#107627 - jester - Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:06 pm
is playstion 1 possible on ds lol
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#107628 - tepples - Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:18 pm
PS1 ports to DS, by a game's original developer, are possible. PS1 emulation probably isn't.
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#107633 - OOPMan - Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:46 pm
PS1 emulation on the PSP is a little hairy, so probably not...
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#107642 - Darkflame - Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:04 pm
PS1 emulation at 1 frame every 10 seconds maybe.
| Quote: |
There is more then one man working on this project.
In fact, I know they're working on it with at least 5 people. |
Well, in that case this project does stand more chance to succeed, but i still put it at less then 1%.
We need a simple text html loader, link navigator and download, hopefully open source.
Once we got that I hold out a lot more hope for it to be adapated, upgraded.
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#107649 - Sausage Boy - Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:45 pm
You can't just make something small and expect people to build and build to it. Planning is essential in larger projects, you've got to know how the whole thing is supposed to be put together. Of course, it's perfectly possible to use your approach, but as the project will get closer to being useful, the source code will turn into a logistical nightmare, and no one will want to continue.
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#107683 - Darkflame - Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:32 am
I never said not to plan, certainly thats essiential!
Its more a question that,imo, its madness to aim so high before even the lowest basics are established.
Theres also the very human effect, that once someone shows something working...no mater how badly....it will inspire others to make better versions. Even if its not in the same source-code tree. This is more psycological then technical, but it seems quite a strong effect to me.
Also, there was a thread, incidently, discusing the best way to make a kinda of modular browser. That is, one that deals with any "media" seperately from the main browsing.
The idea was to give ram-adventages, but it would also be a nice way to split workload, imo.
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#107724 - Lick - Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:21 pm
Yes but I still prefer the usage of pre-written libraries and/or code inclusions instead of finding a hackish method to do modules on basic handheld hardware. Both methods will provide pre-written procedures, but the latter is hackish and the first is not.
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#107827 - Darkflame - Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:31 am
Why is the standard, established, method on PC'sautomaticaly hackslash when done on the DS?
Yes, its hard, but the DS has very limited ram, so in many ways it seems to make more sense to me, not less.
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#107841 - Lick - Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:58 pm
Because the modules require to be loaded at run-time, which is done through a library like libfat. Since there's no standard way (look at the amount of devices and the variations on gba_nds_fat and libfat..) to do that, it will just be harder in the end. When you build the code into the .nds or .ds.gba file, then the device will only have to be able to run those kind of files. The "reused code" will not require any form of libfat at all.
I choose Ninja, by the way.
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#107852 - tepples - Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:08 pm
| Darkflame wrote: |
| Why is the standard, established, method on PC'sautomaticaly hackslash when done on the DS? |
On the PC, libfat is already in RAM when the program starts. This has been the case since MS-DOS 1.0. You would have to build the system such that each application itself is a module, loaded after your "operating system" (formatted as a .nds) loads.
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#107867 - josath - Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:09 pm
| Darkflame wrote: |
| Why is the standard, established, method on PC'sautomaticaly hackslash when done on the DS? |
I had no idea what this meant until after I read tepple's response :P
#107869 - OOPMan - Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:32 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: | | Why is the standard, established, method on PC'sautomaticaly hackslash when done on the DS? |
On the PC, libfat is already in RAM when the program starts. This has been the case since MS-DOS 1.0. You would have to build the system such that each application itself is a module, loaded after your "operating system" (formatted as a .nds) loads. |
Hehehe...
Weeeel...
You could always write apps for DSLinux :-)
That way you'd get your module functionality...
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You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#107881 - tepples - Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:20 pm
Do I need to purchase appropriate peripherals for, install, and configure PCLinux to write apps for DSLinux? Or does PCWindows suffice?
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#107882 - MaHe - Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:23 pm
You need Linux. However, Linux is a free operating system.
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#107884 - GPFerror - Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:47 pm
| MaHe wrote: |
| You need Linux. However, Linux is a free operating system. |
I run colinux with archlinux under windows xp as my dslinux dev platform, I used to use the vmware ubuntu image for it, but it was to slow for me.
Troy(GPF)
http://gpf.dcemu.co.uk
#107895 - tepples - Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:56 pm
| MaHe wrote: |
| You need Linux. However, Linux is a free operating system. |
But does Linux come with free hardware? Last time I tried Linux, it had no driver for several peripherals that are attached to my PC, and it still doesn't.
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#107910 - Darkflame - Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:29 am
Linux is that dodgy riped-off copy of windows isnt it? :p
--
| Quote: |
| You would have to build the system such that each application itself is a module, loaded after your "operating system" (formatted as a .nds) loads. |
A long time ago, I wrote a program in Basic for the Commadore Plus/4.
I wrote a program that would load another program off the tape, but remember the current username and score from the first one.
It was just a collection of small games...each seperate programs that just PEEKed into the ram to see that information the last game left for it.
Thats more or less how i imagined the DS system working, the programs are actualy running alone with full resources of the system. They merely pass controll and information between them.
This seems, imo, to be the most likely way to make a advanced browser on the DS platform.
| Quote: |
| Because the modules require to be loaded at run-time, which is done through a library like libfat. Since there's no standard way (look at the amount of devices and the variations on gba_nds_fat and libfat..) to do that, it will just be harder in the end. When you build the code into the .nds or .ds.gba file, then the device will only have to be able to run those kind of files. The "reused code" will not require any form of libfat at all. |
hmm..
How does moonshell's plugins work?
As far as I know moonshell works on all the main device types.
| Quote: |
| I choose Ninja, by the way. |
Well, you answered the important question.
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#107922 - TJ - Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:33 am
| Quote: |
| But does Linux come with free hardware? Last time I tried Linux, it had no driver for several peripherals that are attached to my PC, and it still doesn't. |
So your scanner is so critical that you can't handle being without it during the time you dual boot into Linux?
Must be a hell of a scanner.
#107926 - tepples - Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:29 am
| TJ wrote: |
| So your scanner is so critical that you can't handle being without it during the time you dual boot into Linux? |
Dual boot? How should I free up hard drive space for another operating system?
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#107934 - Devil_Spawn - Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:53 am
just find old, useless files or programmes, then uninstall/delete them
how much space d oyou have atm
#107937 - TJ - Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:29 am
You would need no more than 2 GB for a functional system with GCC and all of the required source/software (DSLinux tree, toolchains, etc).
Really you only need ~800 MB, but I seem to recall that the DSLinux/uClinux source trees are fairly large.
#107938 - OOPMan - Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:35 am
Hehehe, I think Tepples just doesn't like Linux ;-)
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#107961 - Darkflame - Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:53 pm
XGL Linux ownz...
I mean, its crazy being about to run 3 or 4 videos or DVD's overlaid, transparent, rotating around on a cubed enviroment.
My processor is just a 1.6ghz!
Talk about show-off GUI.
Also highlights just how wastefull those Vista minimum specs are.
err...anyway...
webbrowsers?
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