#108043 - A2hok - Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:38 pm
Just an idea:
What if we had an OS for the DS capable of loading "programs" into the RAM of Supercards/M3's or the DS RAM - although I believe this to be too small. You may say that we already have DSLinux but I believe that DSLinux is not people friendly and also not specifically designed for the DS (especially colour).
This OS should be easy to have programs written for it and developers can leave out certain features that will be incorporated into the OS: for example closing the lid of the DS to turn off the screens.
I believe that the advantages of this idea is simpler programming, the ability to run more than one applications at a time, and easy to use.
The disadvatages, in my opinion, is the limited space of RAM when using devices without added RAM i.e. GBAMP.
MockUp:
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#108053 - Dan2552 - Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:40 pm
I dont think supercard RAM writes are supported by general homebrew yet, DSlinux is the only thing using it at the moment as far as I know.
I totally think an operating system capable of being coded for easilly (well atleast as easy as PAlib :P ) would be revolutionary in the DS homebrew 'scene'
#108066 - ?hr - Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:24 pm
| Dan2552 wrote: |
I dont think supercard RAM writes are supported by general homebrew yet, DSlinux is the only thing using it at the moment as far as I know.
I totally think an operating system capable of being coded for easilly (well atleast as easy as PAlib :P ) would be revolutionary in the DS homebrew 'scene' |
as far as I know, also moonshell supports the sc ram AND the m3 ram.
an OS you say? after all, the OS itself will take some ram of the ds, so the games and apps which people are going to run on it might be smaller too...
#108070 - pas - Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:49 am
This Mockup looks good... but why don't implement FAT ? So the Gbamp is useable too ? I mean: Even DSlinux is usable by the Gbamp...
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#108087 - OOPMan - Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:21 am
Well, there are some problems...
The extra memory in the SC and M3 devices is not as fast as the DS's main memory. This would end up being a problem in the long run, I thinnk...
However, more importantly, OS's are never "simple programming". Implementing one with support for multiple processes/threads would be an added burden.
To be honest, I just can't see much point in this at the moment. DSLinux is a good OS, but in many ways it's not really necessary.
The "features" that you rather have implemented by the OS could just as easily be implemented in the form of a library that can be plugged into existing homebrew projects (Lick's new libcartreset is a good example of this...)
Personally, I think it would be nice if someone would write a libscm3ram library, something that would allow easy access for non-DSLinux programs to the extra memory of the SC and M3...
But a custom written OS? Seems a little overkill to me...
EDIT: In case anyone gets the idea that I'm bashing DSLinux in the above post, I'm not. What I basically meant was that while DSLinux is a great OS, the DS itself does not really need an OS in the traditional sense to function as a workable device. In other words, it's not like a PC or something similar that's essentially useless without a proper OS installed. Hence a full-scale OS for the DS is not quite as essential as it is for the PC. Nevertheless, we already have one full-scale OS for the DS (DSLinux) and a damn good one at that. Which is why I don't see the point in writing a fresh OS of the kind described...
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#108097 - tepples - Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:08 am
| OOPMan wrote: |
| Personally, I think it would be nice if someone would write a libscm3ram library, something that would allow easy access for non-DSLinux programs to the extra memory of the SC and M3... |
It might be as simple as a block device driver for libfat to allow the RAM to be formatted and used as a RAM disk, giving a big, fast /tmp folder.
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#108102 - spinal_cord - Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:53 pm
I can't help but imagine an msdos clone or win3.x running on a ds :P
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#108138 - A2hok - Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:02 pm
What I intended was to have FAT support built in but also adding SC/M3 RAM capable of running more than one program at a time - these programs will hopefully be similar to NDS's but use less RAM if intended for GBAMP etc.
This program will hopefully replace .nds by adding a program environment capable of doing mainly everything with only a little RAM used in retrospect (for SC/M3 anyway).
I'm afraid that I will have no chance in programming something like this - I can barely manage flash - so I'm trying to spread my ideas to programmers.
Sorry if my previous post was misleading (were my mockups really that good?)
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#108148 - Lick - Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:46 pm
Not wanting to disappoint you, but I think no one will take on this project (because of the scale, and their lack of programming/ds hardware skills =/). The best you can get from this DS "scene" will be DSLinux. Which is great, when a GUI-version comes out. Hehe.
(Also, there are little to no programmers who would target this new 'platform'. )
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#108169 - TJ - Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:45 am
Just start working on some GUI programs for DSLinux (PIXIL is a good start), because this thing here is never going to happen.
#108170 - Darkflame - Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:33 am
What about WinDS ? Isnt that an OS? Multi-tasks and such fine at least. Just dosnt have much usefull on it.
Anyway, imo an OS dosnt suit the DS.
You dont need an OS to have the features of an OS, you just need people working to some agreed standards so programs can be switched seamlessly.
eg.
Wouldnt it be nice if file extensions triggered certain programs to load up?
Theres lots of fairly easy way to do that, none of them need a OS as such. (at least, no moreso then Moonshell and DSOrganiser).
But it would need agreement. The boot program would need to look at the file extension, cross check it with a list of programs in a agreed directory, and if it finds a match it saves the file location in ram, and boots the relivent program.
The program then looks at the agreed location in ram so it knows what file to open, and then it opens it.
====
More advanced features could also mean "faked" multi-tasking.
eg. Having a piece of music playing when your using a few seperate programs.
No multitasking at all...all the programs merely have a lib to play the sound file, and they "share" the information as to what sound file was playing, and how far into the song it was.
Personaly, I am really missing the ability to listen to music and read at the same time. STILL the GBAMP's default game-boy firmware beats the DS homebrewers and that upsets me a tad ;)
I could, of course, list loads of other wish-features. (..standard save dialogue box that everyone can put in their progs easily..)
Ranging from easy to hard.
But Id still say all are easier then making an OS, and they are certainly more ram-efficient.
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#108172 - tepples - Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:21 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
But it would need agreement. The boot program would need to look at the file extension, cross check it with a list of programs in a agreed directory, and if it finds a match it saves the file location in ram, and boots the relivent program.
The program then looks at the agreed location in ram so it knows what file to open, and then it opens it. |
A standardized way to implement exec() and the argc/argv would go a long way.
| Quote: |
| I could, of course, list loads of other wish-features. (..standard save dialogue box that everyone can put in their progs easily..) |
You'll have to pressure wintermute for r20 in order for standard file choosers to happen.
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#108176 - Mr. Picklesworth - Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:45 am
I've been listening to music while browsing the Internet for 2 months now :)
All text of course, and a bit fiddly, but it works.
For OSs, DSLinux is great.
For fun bare-metal DS stuff, a standardized application framework would be wonderful. It was discussed to a reasonable depth somewhere on this forum...
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#108180 - OOPMan - Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:46 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
====
More advanced features could also mean "faked" multi-tasking.
eg. Having a piece of music playing when your using a few seperate programs.
No multitasking at all...all the programs merely have a lib to play the sound file, and they "share" the information as to what sound file was playing, and how far into the song it was. |
I think it would probably be a bit easier and more stable to write a multi-threaded sound/input library for the ARM7 that can be used nice and easily. That way pretty every program using the library could integrate this desire for playing music in the background while reading small-font text on an itsy-bitsy screen that everyone has ;-)
Yeah, I know, there are problems with that idea too, but the whole "faked" multi-tasking thing sounds a little dubious and likely to cause problems galore if someone tried to implement it...
I think a better bet would be a standardised ARM7 binary or source frame-work that uses multi-tasking to support all these functions people seem to want going on at once.
Or something...
I just get the feeling that this might be headache city...
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#108181 - Lazy1 - Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:50 am
| tepples wrote: |
A standardized way to implement exec() and the argc/argv would go a long way.
|
Yes!
We need to be able to get the nds launch path, hard-coded paths suck.
#108190 - Darkflame - Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:28 pm
| OOPMan wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: |
====
More advanced features could also mean "faked" multi-tasking.
eg. Having a piece of music playing when your using a few seperate programs.
No multitasking at all...all the programs merely have a lib to play the sound file, and they "share" the information as to what sound file was playing, and how far into the song it was. |
I think it would probably be a bit easier and more stable to write a multi-threaded sound/input library for the ARM7 that can be used nice and easily. That way pretty every program using the library could integrate this desire for playing music in the background while reading small-font text on an itsy-bitsy screen that everyone has ;-)
Yeah, I know, there are problems with that idea too, but the whole "faked" multi-tasking thing sounds a little dubious and likely to cause problems galore if someone tried to implement it...
I think a better bet would be a standardised ARM7 binary or source frame-work that uses multi-tasking to support all these functions people seem to want going on at once.
Or something...
I just get the feeling that this might be headache city... |
Dont get my wrong, Im not expecting perfection...there would be a pause or a jump when switching programs.
But I think a seconds "jump" in the soundtrack when switching would be acceptable. So it wouldnt be the smoothest way.
But I dont think there would be much problems as such, certainly not as much as true multi-tasking, and the additional resource usage that requires.
Also, reading on the DS, specificaly DS Organiser, is actualy quite nice.
When its spread over too screens its actualy supriseingly readable.
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#108384 - HyperHacker - Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:29 am
I've thought about creating a multitasking OS for a while, but I just don't think the DS has enough power. When people think multitasking they tend to think of a classic example: running a program with MP3s playing in the background. The DS struggles to play MP3s as it is; I think adding other programs and a kernel is just going to bog it down too much, especially when there's no longer any guarantee that the player will have ~4MB available to use as a buffer.
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#108385 - OOPMan - Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:02 am
But Hyper, DSLinux is a multi-tasking OS, so we already have one...
I believe it is do-able to play MP3s and browse using Lynx with it :-)
On the subject of what's do-able and what's not, I have to say the Act Imagine video codec used in a lot of commercial games is a very good example of what's doable: High-quality FMV clips on the DS are do-able...
But I get what you're saying...
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#108404 - MaHe - Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:16 pm
HyperHacker, wrong. In fact, somebody over at #dsdev claimed that DS could play MP3's normally using only 60% of ARM7's power. This claim sound a bit extreme, but that aside, DSLinux CAN play MP3's normally, when surfing with Links, and IRCing in bitchx.
So, DS is absolutely capable of a decent OS (which DSLinux, in my opinion, already is).
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#108405 - Darkflame - Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:18 pm
How much do you have to type in each time, if you want to say, load up an MP3 and a Text file?
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#108409 - MaHe - Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:02 pm
Well, I guess it takes a while (unless you have everything scripted like me), but I actually like typing commands, so it's not much of a problem. Maybe PIXIL will fix issue for the rest.
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#108412 - Lick - Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:13 pm
"the rest" is a VERY big group.
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#108447 - OOPMan - Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:36 pm
I find it amusing to see programmers bitching about having to type in a few commands here and there...
Did you all grow up with IDE's in your mouths?
;-)
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#108452 - Lick - Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:46 pm
No, but I grew up with a keyboard instead of an on-screen one. :D
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#108459 - Darkflame - Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:15 am
Yes, keyboard based OS on a machine without a keyboard is a flaw :p
But even then, typeing something in every time you want to load an MP3 is quite a big deal..
DSLinux dosnt have to get an advanced GUI to be more usefull.
Look at Moonshell...the windows and such on the bottom screen are nice, but not essiential for anything.
Its the fast scrolling list at the top that does all the work.
Windows, fancy backdrops, frames...not needed.
But fast program access using nothing but Dpad and "A"? Yes....that would instantly make "the rest" interested :p
(ok, in reality its a little more complex then that, youd need a moonshell style list and some sort of task-switching tab...but thats about it, imo)
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#108469 - OOPMan - Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:34 am
Well, as has been said, PIXIL is in the process of being ported and given that Amadeus is working on it, it's likely it'll actually see the light of day...
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#108486 - dXtr - Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:43 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| No, but I grew up with a keyboard instead of an on-screen one. :D |
I hear that you havn't played many console games in your life.. :P
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#108489 - OOPMan - Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:10 pm
Technically a pretty nifty entry systemn could be implemented using the current keys avaiable on the DS. Problem is, it would entail learning a new input style.
That said, you can cover the basic key needs with the D-Pad, ABXY buttons and L/R trigger...
D-Pad + ABXY + L Trigger gives you 32 key combos and you'd be able to use the R trigger to switch combo-sets for things like numbers, symbols, etc.
As I said, it would be tricky to learn, but I reckon you could get a nice input speed up once you got going. Whether your DS's buttons would survive the experience is anyones guess...
Actually, I was thinking of putting together a little mini-app to test it and see how well it would work :-)
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#108497 - Lick - Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:26 pm
I wouldn't mind an on-screen T9 input-pad. Anything is better than QWERTY 8x8.
dXtr: Well, which consolegame requires textinput from an on-screen keyboard every single time you play it?
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#108501 - tepples - Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:45 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| I wouldn't mind an on-screen T9 input-pad. Anything is better than QWERTY 8x8. |
Are you willing to wait until the patents run out?
| Quote: |
| dXtr: Well, which consolegame requires textinput from an on-screen keyboard every single time you play it? |
Lots of NES games were this way, as they encoded the save file in a 4 to 16 character code in order to save on the cost of adding battery-backed SRAM to each Game Pak.
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#108504 - Lick - Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:10 pm
Yup, I know about the patent thing. But I don't know exactly what is permitted and what isn't. Could you tell me?
And yes, it's true that those games required the user to input the password for a saved state, but you know DAMN WELL what I'm talking about. You don't see the difference between a NES game and an Operational System?
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#108506 - tepples - Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:34 pm
| Lick wrote: |
| Yup, I know about the patent thing. But I don't know exactly what is permitted and what isn't. Could you tell me? |
Only your lawyer can tell you for sure. But predictive text is pretty much tied up throughout the developed world.
| Quote: |
| And yes, it's true that those games required the user to input the password for a saved state, but you know DAMN WELL what I'm talking about. You don't see the difference between a NES game and an Operational System? |
I do, but a lot of DSLinux fans may not. "You have to put in a password every time you use DSLinux? You didn't complain about having to do that on the NES."
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#108519 - jenswa - Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:11 pm
Is this thread about homebrew OS idea's or about the DSLinux input system?
Anyways, if people want some kind of OS on the DS, isn't it a good thing to look at the xbox/xbox360 OS and the psp firmware? Like how it's arrangend and how the buttons are used?
I am not sure if an OS is really needed. But I do think it's nice to return to your DSOrganizer/Moonshell App or whatever App you used when you launched some homebrew application and ended that application. Reading while listening to music or occasionally playing a video file should probably a feature plus a file manager.
Or should it include all of the above and even more. And provide an basic API set for the DS it's functions which can be used in your homebrew application?
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#108526 - OOPMan - Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:04 pm
| tepples wrote: |
I do, but a lot of DSLinux fans may not. "You have to put in a password every time you use DSLinux? You didn't complain about having to do that on the NES." |
Hehehe, you need to download DSL more often Tepples :-) Most of the current builds bypass the login prompt...
I find it bizarre that they can tie up predictive text so thoroughly. I mean, I would imagine the specific algorithms behind T9 and other similar algorithms to be patented, but I don't quite see how they could patent the entirety of predicive text in itself. Still, if that's what they've done, then it sucks indeed...
Hmmmmmm, I'm sure there's probably a way to reproduce the ultimate effect of predictive text without violating the T9 patents et al, it would just take a bit of thinking. Possibly some kind of dictionary system. I was initially thinking of a hash table, but I'm not sure how you'd handle partial hashes...there's probably ways though :-)
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#108531 - Mighty Max - Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:51 pm
| OOPMan wrote: |
I find it bizarre that they can tie up predictive text so thoroughly. |
They haven't.
Take a lok at this: http://www.acadjournal.com/2003/v10/part1/p1/
Obviosly there are other MultiPress algorithm which do not infringe any T9 patents. Given that this algorithm is published without patents, an own implementation following the same rules (just not copy the code) should be legal. But a mail won't hurt :D
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#108540 - tepples - Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:32 pm
| jenswa wrote: |
| Is this thread about homebrew OS idea's or about the DSLinux input system? |
The thread is about choosing to either make an original homebrew OS on the DS or improve a homebrew OS that is already on the DS.
| OOPMan wrote: |
| Hehehe, you need to download DSL more often Tepples :-) Most of the current builds bypass the login prompt... |
1. I have cable. 2. People not familiar with a command prompt think "retawq" is still a password, even though it is actually a program name.
Mighty Max: Good find, provided that the T9 patents aren't broad enough to cover this. Remember that Fraunhofer claims (or claimed) that the MP3 essential patents cover parts of Vorbis as well.
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#108557 - dantheman - Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:55 am
Wait, what's this I hear about being able to download a DS Lite? It would go great with that downloadable RAM I keep hearing about...
In any case, yes DSLinux isn't exactly user friendly, especially for new users. But still, it's the only multitasking OS currently available for the DS, correct? I believe that Amadeus, the guy mainly responsible for getting DSLinux to work with the 32 MB of RAM in the Supercard and M3, is currently working on porting a working GUI called PIXIL that will reportedly make DSLinux easier to use and more flashy and graphical.
#108558 - Darkflame - Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:11 am
Yes, but it alo seems overkill, and kicks of GBAMP users.
As I said, I dont see why DSLinux cant have a moonshell like file list, where you simply navigate with Up/Down to what you want and click "A".
It seems to small compared to other things being talked about.
jenswa says a lot of good points about looking at console firmwares. Id extend that down, and even look at the GBAMP's firmware. It really dosnt take much to make a GUI suitable for a handheld, and hence make Linux faster to use.
Even the predictive text talk seems to completely miss the point.
(allthough predictive text is usefull when you do actualy want to type something :p)
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#108587 - HyperHacker - Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:45 am
| MaHe wrote: |
HyperHacker, wrong. In fact, somebody over at #dsdev claimed that DS could play MP3's normally using only 60% of ARM7's power. This claim sound a bit extreme, but that aside, DSLinux CAN play MP3's normally, when surfing with Links, and IRCing in bitchx.
So, DS is absolutely capable of a decent OS (which DSLinux, in my opinion, already is). |
For once I'm glad to be proven wrong, but if that's not the problem then why does Moonshell stutter doing nothing but playing music?
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#108606 - Darkflame - Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:52 pm
Dosnt for me..music (and videos) play perfectly smoothly.
If it couldnt decode music smoothly, it wouldnt be able to do effectively mpeg video either.
Maybe its your card speed?
I do find, however, when playing music if i try to use a scroll bar, or drag the help thing about *the window* stuters.
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#108623 - OOPMan - Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:12 pm
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| MaHe wrote: | HyperHacker, wrong. In fact, somebody over at #dsdev claimed that DS could play MP3's normally using only 60% of ARM7's power. This claim sound a bit extreme, but that aside, DSLinux CAN play MP3's normally, when surfing with Links, and IRCing in bitchx.
So, DS is absolutely capable of a decent OS (which DSLinux, in my opinion, already is). |
For once I'm glad to be proven wrong, but if that's not the problem then why does Moonshell stutter doing nothing but playing music? |
I don't think MoonShell has multi-thread coded, hence the music playback stutters when you change directories, etc because the data feed to the sound system temporarily halts...
I may be wrong on this, but it sounds likely...
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#108628 - MaHe - Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:07 pm
tepples, a couple of facts:
- DSLinux was never meant to be a really functional and useful application (or in this case, OS), but more of a training polygon for developers. However somehow it turned out that way.
- DSLinux is not designed for people who still think that retawq is a password, and it's current users (myself included) are happy with the current input method, so nobody really sees a point in making a simpler interface (though amadeus is putting some effort in it right now)
- ...
;D (nobody is stopping you from writing your own operating system)
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#108632 - tepples - Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:16 pm
| MaHe wrote: |
| (nobody is stopping you from writing your own operating system) |
Except the people who female dog about duplication of effort.
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#108692 - OOPMan - Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:37 am
Or the effort itself...
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#108794 - Darkflame - Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:15 am
| Quote: |
- DSLinux is not designed for people who still think that retawq is a password, and it's current users (myself included) are happy with the current input method, so nobody really sees a point in making a simpler interface (though amadeus is putting some effort in it right now) |
You keep talking about "simple" interface as if your dealing with people that cant handle the current one. This isnt a question of idiots wanted something like XP. This isnt a mater of skill level at all.
What we are asking for is a QUICKER interface, as text based input on a machine without a keyboard is very slow. Slow and repedative.
You are of course right,developing Linux is a great education excerise for learning the hardware.
But when every time someone suggests "wouldnt it be nice to listen to music and read at the same time", theres always someone says "nay nay Linux already does it". But it dosnt do it practicaly. Its no good for casual use, whatever your skill level.
Im very at home with DOS,but i still wouldnt put up with a CD player that demanded it every time i wanted to change the track. Do you see?
My own view is it seems odd that so much skill and effort is put into the hard stuff, that its odd that the relatively easy task of making a GUI is forgotten.
Im also scared that a massively complex, resource-grabbing windows-style gui is going to be attempted....which is very impressive....but likely not to be as suitable as, say, the sort of GUI (top of)moonshell,DSorganisers, or even typical mobile phones have.
I dont know, maybe linux infects people after awhile...the need to do everything the hard way makes people feel l33t :p
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